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'Moonraker's Dolly'—Braces Or Not?

DrPaulLee said:
As I've said, some recent version overdub the whistle with the cars engine. It doesn't spoil the Barry soundtrack as there was no music during the stunt. I can see how he'd be upset if the track was obtrusively mixed with the whistle on top of the music, but it isn't.
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You're right DrPaul! There isn't any music at that point in the film - I've mis-remembered. I think it must be on the soundtrack album, the "Let's Go Get'Em" track
 
The Mandela effect was an answer on this week's Only Connect, the final two clues being 'Shazam starring Sinbad' and 'Nelson Mandela dies in 1989' or very similar. That was one up for me.

In explaining the Mandela effect to Mrs Cycleboy I used the Dolly wearing braces example, and she thought Dolly did wear braces. Which proves the point, or does it...?
 
cycleboy2 said:
The Mandela effect was an answer on this week's Only Connect, the final two clues being 'Shazam starring Sinbad' and 'Nelson Mandela dies in 1989' or very similar. That was one up for me.

In explaining the Mandela effect to Mrs Cycleboy I used the Dolly wearing braces example, and she thought Dolly did wear braces. Which proves the point, or does it...?
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I got that answer on the second clue as i had been reading this thread recently :D
 
Souleater said:
I got that answer on the second clue as i had been reading this thread recently :D
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I should have, bloody annoyed I didn't! I got the Chad link straightaway but couldn't think of a country with four 'A's; my wife tried for Guatamala but I said it's not spelt like that.

I think I've watched every episode, and not just because of Victoria Coren-Mitchell so I've got an idea how the questions work even if I don't know the answer. I didn't get the Greek mythology link in the all in the wall, but the words preceded by 'ar' came naturally. And as for the final round, all that buzzing in hoping that you'd then work out the answer... didn't work for the Polyhymnians!

I have actually got a team together – they took some persuading – but we haven't applied for it yet...
 
There was something about this on YouTube guy called Minty. He has done a video of the Mandela Effect included is Moonraker have a look because i think he might actually have the answer about the braces disapearing.
Zeke Newbold said:
Calling all Bond fans!

I'm afraid this is one of those so called `Mandela Effect` thingies. Yeah,I know - we had a thread on that before, and I was all rather dismissive of it (for the usual reasons: memories can be unreliable, there are many comon misconceptions - etc). I take none of that back, but...this particular one has got me beat.

So in the film Moonraker (1979) there is a scene in which the baddie Jaws falls for an attractive woman called Dolly (the lovely Blanche Ravalec). Many - including hardcore Bond fans- remember the scene as thus: Jaws smiles at her, and Dolly smiles back - to reveal that she is wearing braces - and so they have something in common and it's love at first sight. It's a sort of visual joke, right?

Except that it's not there anymore - you try finding a picture of dolly with Braces, and watch the film again if you have it - the braces have gone...! (And in the process the whole meaning and comedy of the sequence is lost).

I'm no fan of that era of Bond - way too camp for me - and i'm not even sure if I've seen the film all the way through so i'm not the best judge. However, a great many people remember the scene described above - and they're not all `Mandela Effect` nuts either. see how confused bond fans themselves are about it:
www.M16Community.com
Even the BBC seem to be under the impression that she had braces: www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-29160096
The only mundane explanation for this that I can think of is that the film has been, in recent times, tanpered with digitally.Perhaps the fact that she wore braces made her look underage, and in our paedophilia obsessed culture, some wallah deamed this unnacceptable. If this is so, then I think the producers responsible owe the fans, who really care about this kind of stuff, an apology for not having owned up to it and explained why they did it.

And this post would belong in the Political Correctness Gone Mad thread.

Somebody must know...!
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The reason why we need braces is because we cut our food. We know longer pick up a whole gamon and bite into it. The first nation to start getting crooked teeth were China and Japan because of the chopsticks coming in to play earlier then European cutlery.
Ermintruder said:
This is a bit of a loose generalisation. Both teenage boys and girls often wear orthodontic braces from early teens onwards. Girls in particular (and somewhat counter-intuitively) appear frequently willing to continue wearing corrective braces into their early/mid 20s, and can be much less affected by peer pressure and vanity than boys. So 'Dolly' could, using the shaky indicator of teeth-borne metalwork (existing, or not existing, in this plane of reality) anywhere between 13 and 26 years old (and, visually/generally, that's how old she might well be: but, I'm thinking her intended depiction is as someone aged late teens/early twenties)


Rubbish. By definition, paedophiles are those sexually attracted to pre-pubescent children that will physiologically still have their decidious 'milk' teeth.

The use of dental braces is inarguably an indicator of someone who has their adult teeth, and is not (by biological definition) physically a child. They could possibly be viewed as a young person or (very) young adult, en route to full adulthood.

Equally, they could be in their 20s (perhaps some purient elements within broader society would also consider sexual attractiveness depicted in relation to someone of this age as similarly being 'paedophilic'....the western world generally never gets this entirely right)
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cycleboy2 said:
I should have, bloody annoyed I didn't! I got the Chad link straightaway but couldn't think of a country with four 'A's; my wife tried for Guatamala but I said it's not spelt like that.

I think I've watched every episode, and not just because of Victoria Coren-Mitchell so I've got an idea how the questions work even if I don't know the answer. I didn't get the Greek mythology link in the all in the wall, but the words preceded by 'ar' came naturally. And as for the final round, all that buzzing in hoping that you'd then work out the answer... didn't work for the Polyhymnians!

I have actually got a team together – they took some persuading – but we haven't applied for it yet...
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i love Victoria Cohen-Mitchell. Wish she was was into Women. ;) x
 
Aurora Newman said:
There was something about this on YouTube guy called Minty. He has done a video of the Mandela Effect included is Moonraker have a look because i think he might actually have the answer about the braces disapearing.
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Nice rationalization. No evidence cited, so this falls into what old Uncle Stan Friedman liked to call "research by proclamation". Without evidence of some PC attack, we are left with human memories.

Surely there are some old copies of the film, on VHS say, that no one noticed but lack the braces like all the rest. But then that doesn't disprove the Mandela effect, of course, so we get to have our cake and eat it too.
 
Some of the Youtube comments claim the scene makes no sense without braces on Dolly's teeth. That's just stupid. Two weirdos bonding over a shared experience is nothing new in storytelling. Duh.

This reminds me of the arguments between audiophiles and engineers. Of course those general categories of audio enthusiasts are not mutually exclusive, but the two camps go 'round and 'round with "We can measure things you can't hear" and "I can hear things you can't measure". The thing is, the latter never holds up to competent scientific inquiry. Add in the mountain of fascinating research done on human hearing, human memory, confirmation bias, and so on, and it begins to look like religion vs. archaeology. As I've no doubt said here before, I think the vast majority of this Mandela Effect stuff is just silly but that does not mean there isn't something interesting going on.
 
Back in 80's we and Germany watch things in Pal vhs. Americans and a lot of other countries NTSC vhs. so certain movie for British standards, certain movie for US standards and other countries standards. Later down the line mid to late 90's. UK vhs players also added NTSC. Also American vhs players added pal. Now with these multiregioning vhs players you could actually be watching different region version without knowing it. Also a lot of vhs went about the world in those times with collectors and plus a lot of pirates. I watched a pirate copy of ET in 80's 10 years later if premiers on BBC1 Christmas Day. A lot of Stuff missing from the movie. later down the line i get it on DVD but it's the same as the BBC cut. I get another version with extras on . Still the same . But the extras show cut footage and storyboards to scene that were cut from the original one i watched in the 80 . My Uncle had got the final full cut of ET before the cinema cuts had been made.
 
I read a fairly convincing explanation that Dolly did have braces in the cinema film release and movie goers remember that. However, when reviewed by audiences, cinemagoers said they felt uncomfortable that Jaws was entering into a relationship with a young girl in braces who looked little more than a child so the braces were retouched out before release to VHS and later DVD releases. And that’s the version we see today.
 
Analogue Boy said:
I read a fairly convincing explanation that Dolly did have braces in the cinema film release and movie goers remember that. However, when reviewed by audiences, cinemagoers said they felt uncomfortable that Jaws was entering into a relationship with a young girl in braces who looked little more than a child so the braces were retouched out before release to VHS and later DVD releases. And that’s the version we see today.
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I remember braces and I definitely couldn't have seen it at the cinema.
 
I really wasn't looking at Dollys braces ;) x
Analogue Boy said:
I read a fairly convincing explanation that Dolly did have braces in the cinema film release and movie goers remember that. However, when reviewed by audiences, cinemagoers said they felt uncomfortable that Jaws was entering into a relationship with a young girl in braces who looked little more than a child so the braces were retouched out before release to VHS and later DVD releases. And that’s the version we see today.
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Analogue Boy said:
I read a fairly convincing explanation that Dolly did have braces in the cinema film release and movie goers remember that. However, when reviewed by audiences, cinemagoers said they felt uncomfortable that Jaws was entering into a relationship with a young girl in braces who looked little more than a child so the braces were retouched out before release to VHS and later DVD releases. And that’s the version we see today.
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Do you happen to recall where you read that? If it's true, then there will be a record of it. Otherwise, it's just another Thunderbird photo. The one a lot of people remember but no one can find.
 
Some movies like Blade Runner and Night Breed have a never ending amounts of versions. I've seen all the Blade Runner versions the last one the directors cut. Also had Night Breed (Cabal the Clive Barker novel) on vhs but it was the same cut they showed on Channel 4. They did get a year of complaints and showed a longer version a year later. There were also lots of versions of 1927 movie Metropolis. The full version was found about 7 years ago. Originally Maria the robot is seen in 1927 cinemas to be led into bad ways by her creator. But then so much was lost and new versions made over the years, when Maria came to home video for the first time she becomes one of the big villains of scfi because the scene where her creator tells her young self to go out and do bad is not there. But 7 years ago the missing footage is back. And I now have it on DVD.
 
It may well be true that Moonraker was "sanitized" in the way theorized, as movies often are. The thing is, it's not done in secret. It's well known. If secrecy is attempted, the secret does not last long. There are paper trails, old prints, news stories, mentions in interviews, petitions signed by angry fans, and on and on. So far, at least as far as I can tell, the story of Dolly's braces having been removed is yet to rise above speculations about rumors. Where's the beef?

It also may just as easily be true that some of us have memories that don't belong in this timeline/probability/alternate reality/dimension for whatever reason. The evidence seems to consist of "That ain't how I remember it!"

Also possible is that our memories don't work the way we think they do. This is the only one of the explanations that has any scientific basis. It's also the only one that seems to fit in with my experiences of being wrong about stuff for several decades.
 
Well there were two versions of Star Trek 6 - The Undiscovered country that were on release at the same time. I went to see the film on release day at the ABC cinema on Sauchiehall street in Glasgow. In this version the Klingon assassin is merely killed near the films end.
I enjoyed it that much that, I took my girlfriend to see it with me again a few nights later at the Grovsenor cinema in Ashton Lane - in this slightly longer edition the Klingon was umasked after death (Scoobby Doo style) as Colonel West -a human member of the conspiracy.
Here it is
Now you will see even on that YouTube link folk mentioning the edit and they generally assume it was edited for video release, TV or something similar.
But, I happen to "know" that both versions were in the cinema in the same week - there are similar tales of the different versions of Blade Runner on show on release (never mind later directors cuts). So films have and do get mucked around with.
As it happens I saw Moonraker in the cinema (Ayr Odeon) when it was first released and am positive that there were braces in that scene when I first saw it.
 
Lobeydosser said:
Well there were two versions of Star Trek 6 - The Undiscovered country that were on release at the same time. I went to see the film on release day at the ABC cinema on Sauchiehall street in Glasgow. In this version the Klingon assassin is merely killed near the films end.
I enjoyed it that much that, I took my girlfriend to see it with me again a few nights later at the Grovsenor cinema in Ashton Lane - in this slightly longer edition the Klingon was umasked after death (Scoobby Doo style) as Colonel West -a human member of the conspiracy.
Here it is
Now you will see even on that YouTube link folk mentioning the edit and they generally assume it was edited for video release, TV or something similar.
But, I happen to "know" that both versions were in the cinema in the same week - there are similar tales of the different versions of Blade Runner on show on release (never mind later directors cuts). So films have and do get mucked around with.
As it happens I saw Moonraker in the cinema (Ayr Odeon) when it was first released and am positive that there were braces in that scene when I first saw it.
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You were very lucky to see 2 versions. Sometimes mix up happens. A lot of cinemas of old did have cutting devices to cut film because everyday they are always, even today, listen out for any legal issues causing a cut to be made from the film at the cinema. Now days they don't cut things at cinemas they just don't show the movie. Or you could of walked into a special fan showing with extra footage only for the fans. :)
 
Well somewhat related, one of my first real jobs was in a small computer and video store back before the likes of Blockbuster existed. As independants we dealt directly with the various reps of the film companies when films came out on video release. When a film came out we would buy one master copy and the rights to say 10 copies and would recieve one tape plus packaging for the rest (plus carboard props, posters etc ). We would then use our professional video duplication kit (we also did home cine film to video) to run of both VHS and Betamax copies (masters were usually Betamax) for rental use. When a film was no longer current, some of the copies would get taped over and re-used as something else. Even then we would discover through speaking with our competitors in the area or word of mouth that sometimes we might recieve a different "cut" of a movie than someone else. So I would expect similar to happen with the cinema chains and the original releases. In my example above the "short" version was in the ABC (part EMI back then I think ?) and the longer version was at an independant.
I wonder what an original Beta master of Star Wars would be worth now ? - they weren't cheap back then as films would be on rental 6 months to a year before being made availble to the public to purchase - Rainman was the first film to go out to rental and public sale at the same time. Caused a lot of upset as the sale copies were like £10 and our rental "master" was still something like £800 (dont recall exactly now, but it was that kind of differance). The big chains like Blockbuster, Global, Kingsway etc then started to take over as they had the buying power to push us small independants out and we moved to new premises and became a computer shop only.

Edit - also to add we would see differences between the "original" copies we were sent to make rentals from and the subsequent sell through version when they were eventually released for sale, so for example that Star wars Beta "master" would almost certainly be different from the tape version released later to the public.
 
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