Murderers: How Many Have You Met?
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Hospitaller
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Beakboo wrote:
"I would have thought they'd think very badly of kicking defenseless oul'fellas to death in Ireland. What went wrong?"
A combination of poor & corrupt policing, inadequate health & social services and endemic thuggery - and that was before the "Celtic Tiger", now things are really bad!
Having said that the scenario involved three teenagers, one of whom was merely present. It was a real shcok horror thing at the time. Nowadays emigration is a good option for very different reasons than the early 80s
"I would have thought they'd think very badly of kicking defenseless oul'fellas to death in Ireland. What went wrong?"
A combination of poor & corrupt policing, inadequate health & social services and endemic thuggery - and that was before the "Celtic Tiger", now things are really bad!
Having said that the scenario involved three teenagers, one of whom was merely present. It was a real shcok horror thing at the time. Nowadays emigration is a good option for very different reasons than the early 80s
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Pages back I wrote about how I lived in Salcombe when a guy was suspected of killing his wife and kids. This was in the mid 70s - the guy has finally been brought to trial!
The local news just reported on it, and said the family shared a flat in a particular house - which looked very like the one I spent a few months in over the winter of 73-74! I shall have to buy a local paper tomorrow to get further details.
The local news just reported on it, and said the family shared a flat in a particular house - which looked very like the one I spent a few months in over the winter of 73-74! I shall have to buy a local paper tomorrow to get further details.
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Good thread (if a little unnerving in the wee hours). Deserving of a ressurection i think.
Anyway, my answer is, alas, none. Can you believe it, i've not knowingly met a single murderer - not one!. Is this unlikely in the UK? Does anyone know how many convicted murderers there are living in the UK today? (not to mention estimates of those unknown/uncaught). I'd be fascinated to hear.
Anyway, my answer is, alas, none. Can you believe it, i've not knowingly met a single murderer - not one!. Is this unlikely in the UK? Does anyone know how many convicted murderers there are living in the UK today? (not to mention estimates of those unknown/uncaught). I'd be fascinated to hear.
OneWingedBird
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I had the misfortune to do a stint on remand in New Hall prison near Wakefield (the charges were dropped in the end), and while there I met a young woman called Toni Burke. You will probably hear about her on the news in September when her case goes to court.
She was an absolutely charming and cheerful person, who was quite happy to describe in detail about how she drove one of her best friends out to the hard shoulder of a nearby motorway where she bashed her head in with a crowbar so badly that the police never found all the pieces (seriously). The weirdest thing was that she had no feelings about the matter whatsoever, and no idea why she had done it. Her only regret was that her brief wouldn't let her see the police photos of the body.
There were a couple of interesting angles to the case:
1) The police seemed to think that she was a goth (she wasn't) and that this was somehow relevant.
2) Her favourite film was Fight Club and there was speculation (which she denied) that it had inspired her deed.
Marie
She was an absolutely charming and cheerful person, who was quite happy to describe in detail about how she drove one of her best friends out to the hard shoulder of a nearby motorway where she bashed her head in with a crowbar so badly that the police never found all the pieces (seriously). The weirdest thing was that she had no feelings about the matter whatsoever, and no idea why she had done it. Her only regret was that her brief wouldn't let her see the police photos of the body.
There were a couple of interesting angles to the case:
1) The police seemed to think that she was a goth (she wasn't) and that this was somehow relevant.
2) Her favourite film was Fight Club and there was speculation (which she denied) that it had inspired her deed.
Marie
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Anonymous
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My parents live three doors away from a man who did time for stabbing someone to death. The local papers, typically, didn't have "stabbing" as the headline, but the more sensational "Nazi knife horror" because apparently the knife used was some kind of Nazi memorabilia. But the murderer concerned was a Richard Briers/The Good Life kind of person - a jolly, middle aged sweater wearing horticulturalist. The mind boggles.
I went through school with a boy who would turn out to be a murderer at 19. He bludgeoned his mother's boyfriend to death out of jealousy/disapproval. He always seemed to be an ok sort of a person but I recall when we were about 14, I made some stick-out teeth with cardboard and put them in my mouth. He had bucked teeth and later on cornered me and asked me in a very quiet voice and asked if the teeth were a way of mocking him. They weren't, it was a coincidence that he happened to be in my class at the time.
My brother had a new colleague on a building site once and discovered that the man had committed a quite infamous local murder in the late 70's. A woman was walking her dog on an old battery in our town and discovered the man masturbating in the bushes. Rather than have her contact the police about his activity, the bastard murdered her in cold blood. My brother reckoned he must have served no more than 11 or 12 years for that hideous crime.
A woman my family knew well murdered her pet dog. It was 10 years ago and basically she and her husband locked the poor creature in a cupboard and starved him to death. You can't even call that a spur of the moment killing but a prolonged and deliberate one. Frankly just dumping him in the park would have at least given him a sporting chance of survival but what they did........
Anyway when the case was made public, their names were mud. The husband was politely advised by my dad and his workmates to leave their place of employment and never return, which he did. The woman got an equally chilly reception and still does in certain quarters. Certainly a better punishment than the Courts meted out. I often wondered how they were allowed to keep their children if they were capable of such Sadism.
I went through school with a boy who would turn out to be a murderer at 19. He bludgeoned his mother's boyfriend to death out of jealousy/disapproval. He always seemed to be an ok sort of a person but I recall when we were about 14, I made some stick-out teeth with cardboard and put them in my mouth. He had bucked teeth and later on cornered me and asked me in a very quiet voice and asked if the teeth were a way of mocking him. They weren't, it was a coincidence that he happened to be in my class at the time.
My brother had a new colleague on a building site once and discovered that the man had committed a quite infamous local murder in the late 70's. A woman was walking her dog on an old battery in our town and discovered the man masturbating in the bushes. Rather than have her contact the police about his activity, the bastard murdered her in cold blood. My brother reckoned he must have served no more than 11 or 12 years for that hideous crime.
A woman my family knew well murdered her pet dog. It was 10 years ago and basically she and her husband locked the poor creature in a cupboard and starved him to death. You can't even call that a spur of the moment killing but a prolonged and deliberate one. Frankly just dumping him in the park would have at least given him a sporting chance of survival but what they did........
Anyway when the case was made public, their names were mud. The husband was politely advised by my dad and his workmates to leave their place of employment and never return, which he did. The woman got an equally chilly reception and still does in certain quarters. Certainly a better punishment than the Courts meted out. I often wondered how they were allowed to keep their children if they were capable of such Sadism.
A
Anonymous
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When I was 18 I met a guy at college who, whilst drunk, confessed to me that he had killed a girl. I think they were both 14 at the time. He had suffered from a combination of mental illnesses so personally I didn't consider that it was murder in the sense of being pre-meditated and cold-blooded, but it still freaked me out. He found it very hard to live with and used to get extremely drunk and talk about suicide. I liked him and tried to help him when I could. As far as I'm aware he has never done anything even remotely similar since, he's now a respectable husband and father with a good job.
All in the family
I only know two that I know of, both blood relatives. Hmmm.
I only know two that I know of, both blood relatives. Hmmm.
- Uncle Raymond (mother's brother)
A serial child sex killer (yes, that usually stops the conversation). I once went out with a girl who, as a child, had been approached by him. I discovered this when she told me the story and I had to confess all. - Cousin Nicholas (father' sister's son)
Not technically a murderer, as he was diagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenic after stabbing his mother to death with a kitchen knife, Made the local papers in Edinburgh when I was worjing there though.
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If there really is a "murder gene" I guess I should turn myself in...
McAvennie
Justified & Ancient
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I often wonder how many murderers/undiscovered bodies I may have strolled past in my lifetime.
While I lived in Darlington at uni a local man beheaded/delimbed some woman who he had picked up in a park at the end of my road. the papers said he was a local in the town's pub's one of which I worked in. Did I ever serve him, was I walking home past that park the night he chose his victim?
A guy a year above me at school was recently jailed for beating an aged loan shark to death and quite depressingly my first mate at school, my best pal from ages 7-12 was recently jailed for breaking into and attacking an old lady in her home. He was such a softie at school, real decent bloke. How do these things happen
While I lived in Darlington at uni a local man beheaded/delimbed some woman who he had picked up in a park at the end of my road. the papers said he was a local in the town's pub's one of which I worked in. Did I ever serve him, was I walking home past that park the night he chose his victim?
A guy a year above me at school was recently jailed for beating an aged loan shark to death and quite depressingly my first mate at school, my best pal from ages 7-12 was recently jailed for breaking into and attacking an old lady in her home. He was such a softie at school, real decent bloke. How do these things happen
Re: Re: All in the family
Yes. At his own request there is no communication between him and his family, most of whom are now dead anyway.
A few years they moved him to a prison closer to his home town, which sometimes means they're thinking of releasing you, but apparently they thought better of it. The poor sod has been in there since the mid sixties, I can't imagine he'd cope very well.
Yes. At his own request there is no communication between him and his family, most of whom are now dead anyway.
A few years they moved him to a prison closer to his home town, which sometimes means they're thinking of releasing you, but apparently they thought better of it. The poor sod has been in there since the mid sixties, I can't imagine he'd cope very well.
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Re: Re: Re: All in the family
Thanks for the candid answers. To be honest i'd have thought his home town would be the last place they'd release him. 30 years may have passed but people have long memories about such things.
Jarmaniac said:
Thanks for the candid answers. To be honest i'd have thought his home town would be the last place they'd release him. 30 years may have passed but people have long memories about such things.
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My first reaction to this thread was "don't be daft - of course I haven't" But on thinking - I have known 2.
1. I went to school with Miles Evans. His (sometimes disputed) murder of his step-daughter made national news and details can be found here............
http://www.thisiswiltshire.co.uk/wiltshire/campaigns/justiceforzoe/CAMPAIGNS_JUSTICEFORZOE10.html
2. When my sister was in her mid/late teens she went out with a bloke for a few years. During this period his sister had a secret pregnancy - gave birth to the child - suffocated it - and hid it in the wardrobe. Obviously, it was discovered and the girl ended up having pychiatric treatment etc.
I was about 10 at the time and can remember being totally disbelieving of the concept of a "secret" pregnancy. However, I am now led to believe that such things can happen. I can also remember my mother telling me what had happened and enforcing me to promise not to tell anyone. It did make local news eventually. A rather sad and pitiful story.
1. I went to school with Miles Evans. His (sometimes disputed) murder of his step-daughter made national news and details can be found here............
http://www.thisiswiltshire.co.uk/wiltshire/campaigns/justiceforzoe/CAMPAIGNS_JUSTICEFORZOE10.html
2. When my sister was in her mid/late teens she went out with a bloke for a few years. During this period his sister had a secret pregnancy - gave birth to the child - suffocated it - and hid it in the wardrobe. Obviously, it was discovered and the girl ended up having pychiatric treatment etc.
I was about 10 at the time and can remember being totally disbelieving of the concept of a "secret" pregnancy. However, I am now led to believe that such things can happen. I can also remember my mother telling me what had happened and enforcing me to promise not to tell anyone. It did make local news eventually. A rather sad and pitiful story.
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Murderers you pass in the street
I can recall only one murderer personally--a very tragic murder-suicide.
I did read, however, in the book, WHAT ARE THE ODDS?, (title no doubt misremembered--there are several), the statistic that one in a thousand people you meet on the street in the United States is a murderer. The murder rate in Canada is about half, and in Japan, about 1/100th of that in the U.S. The U.K. or French rate would be roughly 1/10th that of the American rate, or one in ten thousand.
Mind you there are many ways to meet more than your fair share of murderers: hitchhiking, bar hopping, sleeping in bus and train stations, etc.
If avoiding murderers is your aim, perhaps teaching the First Class of a Sunday School once a week and then going straight home to your home computer based business is the best advice. Send your mom out to do your shopping.
I can recall only one murderer personally--a very tragic murder-suicide.
I did read, however, in the book, WHAT ARE THE ODDS?, (title no doubt misremembered--there are several), the statistic that one in a thousand people you meet on the street in the United States is a murderer. The murder rate in Canada is about half, and in Japan, about 1/100th of that in the U.S. The U.K. or French rate would be roughly 1/10th that of the American rate, or one in ten thousand.
Mind you there are many ways to meet more than your fair share of murderers: hitchhiking, bar hopping, sleeping in bus and train stations, etc.
If avoiding murderers is your aim, perhaps teaching the First Class of a Sunday School once a week and then going straight home to your home computer based business is the best advice. Send your mom out to do your shopping.
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I'm not aware of having met any murderers, but many years ago a friend of mine (who was on a housing list) was offered the house where some fella killed his mother...
She turned it down, if I'd been offered it I'd have taken it, because I had no idea who he or the deceased women were ... shows how much attention I pay to the news
She turned it down, if I'd been offered it I'd have taken it, because I had no idea who he or the deceased women were ... shows how much attention I pay to the news
A
Anonymous
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I know two, pretty well - one got into the Glasgow gang scene as a teenager and ended up knifing someone. Went to Bar-L, reformed, and is now living a quiet life as a writer.
He's a nice guy - very sweet tempered, most of the time.
Another guy I know, as a youth, also Glasgwegian, stole a car and killed someone when driving it. After coming out of jail, he joined the foreign legion, fought in the Gulf (first time) then became a mercenary in Algeria.
I never ask how many people's he's killed, of course, He too, is a generally sweet-tempered guy. Writes comics now.
He's a nice guy - very sweet tempered, most of the time.
Another guy I know, as a youth, also Glasgwegian, stole a car and killed someone when driving it. After coming out of jail, he joined the foreign legion, fought in the Gulf (first time) then became a mercenary in Algeria.
I never ask how many people's he's killed, of course, He too, is a generally sweet-tempered guy. Writes comics now.
A
Anonymous
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Interesting fact which seems to tie in with this, is that it is estimated that 1 in 200 people has a brain abnormality which seems to give them at least a degree of psychopathic tendencies. It might not surprise you to hear, ( and I am not bull shitting here ), that a lot of top managers and business men/women seem to have this brain abnormality.
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Anonymous
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I saw a programme a while back about psycopaths. I was surprised to learn that they are nt necessary murderers or even frenzied. Psycopaths describes someoe who is bullying, parasitic and unconcerned about other peoples feelings or rights. It gave me the chills because it reminded me of someone I knew who is prone to such behaviour as well as violent outbursts. But he is also capable of great charm, switching it on or off at will.
I suppose many *top* people, captains of industry etc have to have a certain amount of selfishness to reach the top.
I was thinking, regarding murderers, I would rather share a lift with a Mafia hitman than a murderer, even though they are both essentially serial killers. I know a true SK is uncontrolled but surely a hitmans mental pathology can't be all that different? It's all about putting emotions aside to kill someone.
I suppose many *top* people, captains of industry etc have to have a certain amount of selfishness to reach the top.
I was thinking, regarding murderers, I would rather share a lift with a Mafia hitman than a murderer, even though they are both essentially serial killers. I know a true SK is uncontrolled but surely a hitmans mental pathology can't be all that different? It's all about putting emotions aside to kill someone.
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Anonymous
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Anyone here read "The Hitman Diaries" - cool book !
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Anonymous
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Re: Murderers you pass in the street
There are 4.55 annual homicides per 100,000 US citizens. Ranked 3rd worldwide in a pool of non-asian nations. Mexico is the highest with worldwide, bar none, with 14.11 per 100,000 citizens. Poland is second with 5.61 per 100,000 citizens (non-asian nations only). The UK is 13th (1.61 per 100,000) and France is 9th. (1.78 per 100,000). Japan is ranked last at .50 per 100,000.
Finding reliable statistics on the web was not hard and might be based on better information than the book you mentioned, LBD. The site I went to is Economic & Social Data Ranking
oh my, considering this stat, perhaps I should be more polite to the UK contingent:
Assaults (cases per 100,000 population) 851.60 Rank: 1
Nasty tempers, what?
littleblackduck said:
There are 4.55 annual homicides per 100,000 US citizens. Ranked 3rd worldwide in a pool of non-asian nations. Mexico is the highest with worldwide, bar none, with 14.11 per 100,000 citizens. Poland is second with 5.61 per 100,000 citizens (non-asian nations only). The UK is 13th (1.61 per 100,000) and France is 9th. (1.78 per 100,000). Japan is ranked last at .50 per 100,000.
Finding reliable statistics on the web was not hard and might be based on better information than the book you mentioned, LBD. The site I went to is Economic & Social Data Ranking
oh my, considering this stat, perhaps I should be more polite to the UK contingent:
Assaults (cases per 100,000 population) 851.60 Rank: 1
Nasty tempers, what?
A
Anonymous
Guest
Re: Murderers you pass in the street
...and don't talk to strangers on the web....
I've met one professionally, as well as having a couple in the family, but I've only made the aquaintance of one of them.
littleblackduck said:
...and don't talk to strangers on the web....
I've met one professionally, as well as having a couple in the family, but I've only made the aquaintance of one of them.
A
Anonymous
Guest
Murders due to firearms per year:
Germany 381
France 255
Canada 165
United Kingdom 68
Australia 65
Japan 39
The United States of America, 11,127.
MichaelMoore.com
Germany 381
France 255
Canada 165
United Kingdom 68
Australia 65
Japan 39
The United States of America, 11,127.
MichaelMoore.com
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Anonymous
Guest
Great topic Jon! (how ARE you by the way???? long time....)
I knew two guys back home (Wyoming) who killed and ate a hitchhiker around 1971 or so. I guess that qualifies as murder although the hitchhiker WAS from Montana so it could have just been a public service....
I knew two guys back home (Wyoming) who killed and ate a hitchhiker around 1971 or so. I guess that qualifies as murder although the hitchhiker WAS from Montana so it could have just been a public service....
Anome
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Re: Murderers you pass in the street
I don't know of any murderers in my past. But then again, I didn't know about the child molesters and thieves either until well after the fact.
(Actually, with a couple of them, I had my suspicions, but until they got caught, I had no way of knowing for sure. Plus on the religious nutter side, I'm sure there are a few of my acquaintance who would blow up doctor's surgeries if they had the slightest clue how to build explosive devices.)
Until one of the little dears grows up, and sets off a bomb at a family planning clinic. Or maybe the nice religious couple who pick up little Damien do.littleblackduck said:
I don't know of any murderers in my past. But then again, I didn't know about the child molesters and thieves either until well after the fact.
(Actually, with a couple of them, I had my suspicions, but until they got caught, I had no way of knowing for sure. Plus on the religious nutter side, I'm sure there are a few of my acquaintance who would blow up doctor's surgeries if they had the slightest clue how to build explosive devices.)
A
Anonymous
Guest
My wife asked me an interesting question the other night - why aren't soldiers arrested or sued for killing during war? If for, example, an American soldier was killed during Gulf War One, and the US soldier's widow knew the Iraqi soldier who did it (fairly improbable, I know), could the widow sue or the Iraqi be arrested for murder? Knowing the US is the worlds greatest sue-culture, is there a possibility that this could happen? Especially when you think of the court cases for Gulf War Syndrome and Friendly Fire.
Also, wasn't there a case a few years ago of British POWs wanting compensation from the Japanese?
Also, wasn't there a case a few years ago of British POWs wanting compensation from the Japanese?
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Anonymous
Guest
I know we do some strange and wonderful things here in the US but I do believe it would be a little hard to sue over war. Our insurance policies have specific wording against covering anything to do with act of war so I'm assuming that the courts would be as strict.
ASSuming being the operative word here of course.....
and Fortis, the cannibal boys were quite a bit older but I did hang out with one of them after he got out of prison (knew the family) and he always swore his innocence (not the Baker person, the other one!).Found the story on the net' here http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/4077/baker.html
ASSuming being the operative word here of course.....
and Fortis, the cannibal boys were quite a bit older but I did hang out with one of them after he got out of prison (knew the family) and he always swore his innocence (not the Baker person, the other one!).Found the story on the net' here http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/4077/baker.html
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I used to work for Social Services and an ex-colleague related this to me as someone else at our Unit years previously had mentioned she was a relation of a notorious serial child killer.
My ex-colleague had been a Deputy Manager of an Elderly Home and was on duty one day when one of the female residents recieved a visit from her son. Nobody at the Home had heard about this son and the lady herself had never mentioned him.
One of the Care Assistants walked into my friend's office in an extremely shaken and frightened state, very pale and crying. The long-lost son who had turned up for a visit was also the convicted serial child murderer who had attempted to abduct the Care Assistant when she was a child and fortunately for her, he had been interrupted in the act.
She had recognised him immediately and was so distressed my friend sent her home with another member of staff. The murderer, was allowed unsupervised day visits as part of his rehabilitation into society and the Home had to allow the visits, the Care Assistant involved had also no alternative but to carry on her shift/duties even if he was visiting, but obviously my friend would allow her to 'hide' out in one of the offices until he had gone. Another Care Assistant from the Home was later employed at our Unit and vouched for the story's authenticity.
I have also 'House Shared' with two guys who are now convicted killers, one who killed another man in a 'pub fight whilst living at the house. Somebody I would never have thought would be capable of murder and such a shame as he was really nice guy.
The other guy who, I also had the misfortune of working with his evil, evil mother- and I can understand why he was so evil himself- went onto steal from everybody in the House and a year after being booted out of the house, he raped and strangled a 79 yr old woman in her own home. His mother who I worked with recently was unaware of me knowing this, as she had been estranged from him since he was 18. I inadvertantly informed the other staff this revelation in my last week there as she had not told her colleagues about her son, saying that he was working 'away'. The woman was constantly being reported and suspected for the mistreatment of vulnerable people in her care, we were unable to gain sufficient evidence as the people being mistreated were classed as 'unreliable witnesses'. Like Mother, like Son I suppose.
My ex-colleague had been a Deputy Manager of an Elderly Home and was on duty one day when one of the female residents recieved a visit from her son. Nobody at the Home had heard about this son and the lady herself had never mentioned him.
One of the Care Assistants walked into my friend's office in an extremely shaken and frightened state, very pale and crying. The long-lost son who had turned up for a visit was also the convicted serial child murderer who had attempted to abduct the Care Assistant when she was a child and fortunately for her, he had been interrupted in the act.
She had recognised him immediately and was so distressed my friend sent her home with another member of staff. The murderer, was allowed unsupervised day visits as part of his rehabilitation into society and the Home had to allow the visits, the Care Assistant involved had also no alternative but to carry on her shift/duties even if he was visiting, but obviously my friend would allow her to 'hide' out in one of the offices until he had gone. Another Care Assistant from the Home was later employed at our Unit and vouched for the story's authenticity.
I have also 'House Shared' with two guys who are now convicted killers, one who killed another man in a 'pub fight whilst living at the house. Somebody I would never have thought would be capable of murder and such a shame as he was really nice guy.
The other guy who, I also had the misfortune of working with his evil, evil mother- and I can understand why he was so evil himself- went onto steal from everybody in the House and a year after being booted out of the house, he raped and strangled a 79 yr old woman in her own home. His mother who I worked with recently was unaware of me knowing this, as she had been estranged from him since he was 18. I inadvertantly informed the other staff this revelation in my last week there as she had not told her colleagues about her son, saying that he was working 'away'. The woman was constantly being reported and suspected for the mistreatment of vulnerable people in her care, we were unable to gain sufficient evidence as the people being mistreated were classed as 'unreliable witnesses'. Like Mother, like Son I suppose.