Muslim anger builds over Pope's speech

[ted_bloody_maul]

A statement from the Vatican has failed to dampen growing anger among Muslims around the world at a speech by the Pope in which he discussed the concept of holy war.
The Vatican said last night that Benedict XVI had not intended to offend when he quoted a 14th-century Christian emperor as saying the Prophet Muhammad had introduced only "evil and inhuman" ideas into the world.

"It certainly was not the intention of the Pope to carry out a deep examination of jihad and Muslim thought on it, much less to offend the sensibility of Muslim believers," a Vatican spokesman said after Pope Benedict returned to Rome from his native Germany, where he made the speech.

Pakistan's parliament today unanimously adopted a resolution condemning Benedict for making "derogatory" comments about Islam and seeking an apology from him for hurting the feelings of Muslims.

The Pope's speech was about the historical and philosophical differences between Islam and Christianity, and the relationship between violence and faith.

Stressing that the words were not his own, he quoted from a book according to which, the Pope said, the Byzantine emperor Manuel Paleologos II said: "Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."

Clearly aware of the delicacy of the issue, the Pope used the words "I quote" twice before repeating the emperor's reported remarks on Islam, which he described as "brusque".

Since the pontiff's speech on Tuesday, Muslim leaders around the world have criticised his use of the emperor's words.

The resolution in Pakistan, moved by the hardline MP Fazal Karim, was supported by government and opposition members of the National Assembly, or lower house of parliament.

Chaudhry Ameer Hussain, speaker of the National Assembly, allowed Mr Karim to move the resolution after he said the Pope had insulted Islam and the Prophet Muhammad by making "derogatory remarks".

This morning, Britain's Ramadhan Foundation, a youth organisation based in Rochdale, reacted angrily to the comments, comparing the Pope unfavourably with his predecessor John Paul II.

In a statement, it said: "If the Pope wanted to attack Islam and Prophet Muhammad's teachings, he could have been brave enough to say it personally without quoting a 14th-century Byzantine Christian emperor."

Turkey's most senior Islamic cleric also asked Pope Benedict to apologise for the remarks, raising tensions before the pontiff's planned visit to Turkey in November in what is planned to be his first papal pilgrimage to a Muslim country.

Ali Bardakoglu, a cleric who as head of Turkey's religious affairs directorate sets the religious agenda for the country, said he was deeply offended by the remarks, which he called "extraordinarily worrying, saddening and unfortunate".

Mr Bardakoglu said that if the Pope had been reflecting "the spite, hatred and enmity" of others in the Christian world, then the situation was even worse.

In Egypt, Mohammed Mahdi Akef, the leader of Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood, joined the calls for an official apology.

"The remarks do not express correct understanding of Islam and are merely wrong and distorted beliefs being repeated in the west," Mr Akef said in a statement yesterday.

He said he was "astonished that such remarks come from someone who sits on top of the Catholic church, which has its influence on the public opinion in the west".

However, the former Archbishop of Canterbury Lord Carey came to the Pope's defence today, saying Muslims must learn to enter into dialogue without "crying foul".

Asked about the Pope's remarks, he said: "I cannot comment on a few phrases in what was clearly a long speech. The Pope is a distinguished scholar and one unlikely to say offensive things. If he quoted something said 600 years ago, we should not assume that this represents the Pope's beliefs about Islam today.

"But Muslims, as well as Christians, must learn to enter into dialogue without crying foul. We live in perilous times, and we must not only separate religion from violence but also not give religious legitimacy to violence in any shape or form."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/pope/story/0,,1873167,00.html

 

[ramonmercado]

Pot calling the Kettle black.

But everything he said was true. Its just that Christianity did just the same.

The difference now being that there are no Christian Theocratic States where women and gays are stoned to death.

 

[Peripart]

Some people seem to make a real effort to take things personally - it's almost like they want to be offended, so they can vent their righteous anger at the offenders.

For myself, I can't think of any 600-year-old quotations which I could bring myself to be offended by. Life's too flippin' short.

 

[sonofajoiner]

I particularly like the comment on the BBC page from Mohammed Mahdi Akef of the Muslim Brotherhood claiming that "The [popes] remarks do not express correct understanding of Islam". Totally unlike the Muslim Brotherhood of course who believe Islam allows them to kill people.

 

[rjmrjmrjm]

I think the media is to blame for this 'outcry'. If you actually read what the pope said and the context in which he said it, it was a direct quote from a valid historical source given in the context of an academic lecture. Not a sermon, doctrinal-regulation or papal-encyclical.

If academic debate can be stifiled by mass media hysteria then what hope have we of ever discussing anything properly. If you read the September 12th article from CNN - before the hsyteria broke - you get a rather different picture.

ALTOETTING, Germany (AP) -- Pope Benedict XVI said Tuesday that Islamic holy war was against God's nature and invited Muslims to join in a peaceful cultural dialogue.

In a speech at Regensburg University, Benedict made an unusual reference to jihad, or holy war -- a concept used by today's Islamic extremists to justify suicide bombings and other attacks.

Benedict's address was about faith and reason, and how they cannot be separated and are essential for "that genuine dialogue of cultures and religions so urgently needed today."

Citing historic Christian commentary on holy war and forced conversion, the 79-year-old pontiff quoted from a 14th-century Byzantine emperor, Manuel II Paleologos.

"The emperor comes to speak about the issue of jihad, holy war," the pope said. "He said, I quote, 'Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.' "

Clearly aware of the sensitivity of the issue, Benedict added, "I quote," twice before pronouncing the phrases on Islam and described them as "brusque," while neither explicitly agreeing with nor repudiating them.

"The emperor goes on to explain in detail the reasons why spreading the faith through violence is something unreasonable," Benedict said.

"Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul," the pope said, issuing an open invitation to dialogue among cultures.

The Vatican spokesman, the Rev. Federico Lombardi, said the pope was not giving an interpretation of Islam as "something violent," although he said the religion contains both violent and nonviolent strains.

Benedict did not touch directly on the current controversy over Islamic extremism, although it is an issue he follows with concern. Last year in Cologne, Germany, he urged Islamic leaders to take responsibility for their communities and teach their young to abhor violence.

Last week, he told a gathering of Christian, Muslim and Jewish representatives in Italy that no one can "use the motive of religious difference as a reason or pretext for bellicose behavior toward other human beings."

Benedict will make his first visit to a Muslim country in November, when he is scheduled to travel to Turkey.

Gerlinde Axmann, a 40-year-old social worker, watched Tuesday's speech on one of the large screens set up in a square near the cathedral.

"That was a very important start to dialogue with Muslims amid the terrorist threat," she said, calling Benedict's appeal to reason "a building block toward finding a way to argue with each other without using weapons."

"I think it's very important for him to bring these things up in society," she said. "Muslims aren't going to take us seriously until we become conscious of our own values. For example, they take the pope much more seriously than others in the West."

Quarter million attend Mass
Benedict earlier celebrated Mass for about 230,000 people, the second-largest crowd of his six-day homecoming tour, which ends Thursday.

From atop the altar platform, the pope looked over a throng dotted with blue-and-white Bavarian flags and the yellow-and-white Vatican banners.

In discussing faith and reason, Benedict in his sermon at Mass scoffed at the idea of a "mathematically ordered cosmos" without any hand of God. He said this would mean "nothing more than a chance result of evolution."

"We believe in God. This is a fundamental decision on our part."

Eva Renz dozed in the sun as she waited for the pope, having been on the road since 3 a.m. with her husband and six children.

"His presence is important because he is a representative of Christ," she said. "I brought all the children because it's important for them to see this huge crowd and all the joy."

Some people turned out in spite of disagreeing with Benedict's conservative stands such as his opposition to ordaining women and married men.

Machine shop worker Kurt Kellner, 40, came to the Mass but was skeptical about whether Benedict would win him over. "I know his positions. They're not entirely my opinions. I want to take part in the event," he said, calling Benedict "relatively good" as pope. "He knows how to move people," he said.

In his speech at the university, where he once taught theology, Benedict stressed that "a reason which is deaf to the divine and which relegates religion into the realm of subcultures is incapable of entering a dialogue of cultures."

But he assured that his critique of modern reason "has nothing to do with putting the clock back."

"The positive aspects of modernity are to be acknowledged unreservedly," he said.

 

[Dingo667]

Yeah, weknow that and a lot of us [even atheists] take the time to read the full statement.
However muslims just see the headlines, don't even bother to read the whole thing let alone try and understand how the pope could have actually menat it.
As it was said before, its as if they love being the underdogs. I loved one of the statements on the BBC where it was said that islam is being abused and it is a peaceful religion, he went on to say that violent acts are only the retribution to war...
"Hello", first was the terrorism and THEN was the war.

I am sorry but Islam may be peaceful in writing but as long as extremists get away with commiting terror or other violent acts under the name of islam, I have to say that islam in my experience is a very very violent religion.
I am sick and tired to keep my mouth shut, after all I don't hold back when I rant about x-tians. Its about time I am allowed to call a spade a spate. The only thing is that I needn't fear revenge when I call x-tians complete morons.

 

[mindalai]

Can I just remind everyone once again that Muslims are not a homogenous group. Please don't make generalisations about ALL muslims based on the actions and statements of a few who seem to have all the media attention.

 

[Dingo667]

No neither are x-tians or anybody else mate. No need to be patronising as I am fully aware of that. I am currently working with no less than three muslim people.
However I am just sick of the whole shabang. I don't have to treat muslims different to anybody else or do I, if so why?
Listen, I am what they would call an "infidel". Have you read what they say about ME?
Am I bothered?
Not really because to me religion is humankinds worst invention.
To be honest though I have never heard Bhuddists making such a stink when someone offends them. Now there we have a truly peaceful belief system. Bhuddism is intelligent and not based on any made up dieties but on humans inner self. To be one with nature and to respect each other. Sadly I can't say that for either x-tians and especially not for islam.

 

[mindalai]

I am currently working with no less than three muslim people.

Wow!

I am in complete awe. No, I really am.

If you're fully aware that Muslims are not all the same then why did you write this?

muslims just see the headlines, don't even bother to read the whole thing let alone try and understand how the pope could have actually menat it

Who said anything about treating Muslims differently? Certainly not me. And I also wouldn't exclude Christians or any other group from my statement about not being a homogenous group.

 

[Dingo667]

So what exactly was your point?

 

[mindalai]

So what exactly was your point?

this:

Muslims are not a homogenous group. Please don't make generalisations about ALL muslims based on the actions and statements of a few who seem to have all the media attention

 

[Anome]

Bhuddism is intelligent and not based on any made up dieties but on humans inner self.

Are you sure about that? Isn't Buddhism based on the teachings of a semi-historical figure who is supposed to have been reincarnated multiple times? And what about the huge list of gods and boddhisatvas?

Come to think of it, their religious leaders are supposed to be divine beings who are reincarnated.

 

[rjmrjmrjm]

I agree that not all muslims are the raving lunatics that appear on our TV screens but it seems that the moderate muslim community has little or no voice. As a moderate christtian I am willing to disagree on many issues in mainstream christianity (abortion, biblical literalism, creationism etc...) and be fairly vociferous about it but it seems that every muslim leader the media ask has the same answer: ''Appologise for saying we're violent or we'll kill you!''

The BBC has the entire speech online.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/p ... 6_pope.pdf

 

[Jerry_B]

I agree that not all muslims are the raving lunatics that appear on our TV screens but it seems that the moderate muslim community has little or no voice.

IMHO, what's actually going on is that the oxygen of publicity is being given to the small amount of people who apparently haven't actually read the speech but have to decided to rant anyway. So the ones that are making all of the noise are getting the most attention. I wouldn't take that as being that the rest of the muslim community is being drowned out. Most of this event is a media furore, and to focus on the reaction of a few silly buggers is part and parcel of that. It's pretty much the same as when 'Jerry Springer - The Musical' was shown on TV inthe UK - a big hoo-hah from a few christians who felt mortally offended about something which they hadn't actually seen

It seems to me that most of this is down to bad handling by the media in various countries, mixed in with the sort of people who are always going to rant first and read things later (if at all).

 

[jefflovestone]

I agree that not all muslims are the raving lunatics that appear on our TV screens but it seems that the moderate muslim community has little or no voice.

I'll be honest and admit that I wonder about this quite a lot, partly because of the area where I live. Basically, a small estate of high rise and maisonette flats, which was/is predominantly white (although, about 8 years ago, there was a large influx of Kosovan/Bosnian refugees). This estate is then surrounded by streets and streets of terraced and Victorian 'villas' which are overwhelmingly populated by an Asian Muslim community. I only live a couple of miles away from Oldham and many of the feelings and tensions there are also echoed in my hometown.

I wonder why the moderate Muslims don't have a voice. Is it because they are intimidated by extremists? Is it because they don't care or feel that there is any need? After all, I don't necessarily comment on every concern that may impinge on any demographic to which I belong. Is it because they are actally complicit and secretly support the extremists, and that there are very few actual moderate muslims?

As a moderate christtian I am willing to disagree on many issues in mainstream christianity (abortion, biblical literalism, creationism etc...) and be fairly vociferous about it but it seems that every muslim leader the media ask has the same answer: ''Appologise for saying we're violent or we'll kill you!''

If I was a member of a demographic that was suffering from a backlash and negative portrayal as Muslims are, then I'd be doing my best to distance myself from the element that was creating this ill-feeling.

Can't moderate Muslims actually see the gravity of the situation and the possibilities of the role they can play in this?

 

[Dingo667]

I have just been reading some comments which came from moderate muslims on the BBC forum. Not one of them was being objective and none had read the context of the popes quotes. One message stood out though and that was "If you know what the reaction will be, why incite it?"
This was also said by the head of tehmoderate muslims in the UK and repeated by some geezer high up in pakistan.
I am only human so blame it on that but I make up my mind about someone by seeing what they have to say or what they do.
All I can see is that muslims obviously take their religion far more serious than anyone else. That is their right of course.
However when in rome... and all that malarkey. The western world is NOT islamic and we do things different here. How about getting used to that rather than trying to make us behave the way they want us to.
Yes x-tians are sometimes getting their knickers in a twist about something like the Jerry Springer musical but somewhat the violence is missing from their protests and letters they write to vent their anger.
Hey as much as I loathe x-tians [whoa I doubt I'd be allowed to say that about the oh so sensitive muslims] I do admire them sticking to their sloppy bible quotings about loving thy neighbour and giving the other cheek and all that.
By being consistent with that, the once very violent church has shown that moving on with times can actually lead to a peaceful existence.

However [and yes if I can have a go at x-tians I can have a go at any other religion] muslims tell us left right and centre how peacful their religion is and then [even if it is just a few] start declaring their hatred against the west, often accompanied by violence.
Call me stupid but something doesn't add up here.
I am a person who only mentions "knowing" muslims because some stuck up people will otherwise say that I should "get to know" muslims before I talk about tehm [doomed if I do, doomed if I don't]. However I have always prided myslef for giving everybody an equal chance [in my case "I hate everyone until proven nice"] and yes one of my best friends was a muslim girl who was far from violent. However I have also had very violent muslims [in my own family by the way, if you must know my niece went out with a muslim turk and was beaten up and threatened at knifepoint for 7 years, he is now in prison for murder of a dutch bloke but that is another story].
Listen apart from clusters of muslims who stick to themsleves and violent extremists on the other hand I have seen enough.

I understand for example that muslims are not ready for our western freedom. It is a culture shock and we have to understand that. And we are, we make all sorts of adjustments to accomodate the rights of muslims. Isn't it time now to teach people who want to come to our world how it is here, what to expect, that sometimes there will be criticism and how to deal with it in an appropriate manner?

We cannot give in to every whim. When I spoke about Bhuddism it was taken to pieces and every word was chewed as to find somethign wrong with what I said. Save your typing skills, I don't care about nit-picking. What I am basically saying is that there are a myriad of religions but islam is standing out like a sore thumb. Why?
Ask muslims, not me.

I think all religions are a waste of time and space and seeing all this serious shit makes me sad and angry.

 

[Pietro_Mercurios]

Unfortunately, the Pope has made the classic error of what has become known technically as, "The Enoch Powell Manoeuvre". Dressing up attacks on other races and religions by couching them in history and with the use of classical, or historical quotes and references, does not make things better. In fact by drawing people' attention back into history one risks conjuring up memories of the times of the Crusades and the Inquisition (Cardinal Ratzenberger's previous job as the Pope's enforcer was in line of descent from Torquemada, after all).

I really don't think that the previous Pope would have made such a faux pas and I wasn't a big fan of Pope John Paul, either. However, I don't see how Pope Benedict could retract the statement without losing face, as he's supposed to be infallible. Tricky one.

The College of Cardinals may yet come to regret electing such a Right Wing, ex-Hitler Youth, type chap for the Big Job.

 

[jefflovestone]

and yes if I can have a go at x-tians I can have a go at any other religion

I know that you wrote that as a kind of disclaimer but it got me thinking. Actually, it kind of followed on from reading a profile on MySpace account where the owner stated that they hated racists and those intolerant to homosexuality but, at the same, more or less dissmissed anyone believing in religion as a complete knobhead.

When did it become permissable/acceptable for society to be generally derisory towards Christianity, to the extent that it is be a form of bigotry and harrassment, but, often, would think twice about disparaging someone regarding their sexuality, gender or if they were a Muslim etc., etc.?

This isn't necessarily a reflection on you Dingo, more a case of your post being a springboard for something else.

~Ponders on shelving my Vicar of Dibbley spin-off, The Iman of Woolwich~

 

[stu neville]

When did it become permissable/acceptable for society to be generally derisory towards Christianity, to the extent that it is be a form of bigotry and harrassment, but, often, would think twice about disparaging someone regarding their sexuality, gender or if they were a Muslim etc., etc.?

Oh, I don't know - white, straight males are completely open targets, apparently. It's the only group that can be openly denigrated in the media, in commercials, held up as a pargon of shiftlessness etc without any apparent protests, painfully right-on placard waving or self-righteous, angsty Grauniad columns.

Is this because a) we've had it so good for too long and now the boot's on the other foot, or b) because we're confident enough in ourselves that we don't have to look for offence in everything anyone else says, and so just let it ride?

Personally, as a white, straight male, I don't give a toss how the media portrays my demographic group. I imagine a few of the other white, straight males on here feel the same.

Life's too short.

Perhaps that answers my question.

 

[mindalai]

I suspect it's mostly b.

It's hard to understand how much racism, sexism and all the other isms can hurt unless you've been part of a minority or group that has actually been systematically oppressed by the structures and laws of society. I don't believe there can be very many white, middle class men in this country who can truly understand the meaning of systematic oppression (as opposed to personal oppression) so it's never going to hurt as much when someone makes jokes at their expense (not that I'm defending that of course).

 

[sunsplash1]

Bhuddism is intelligent and not based on any made up dieties but on humans inner self.

Are you sure about that? Isn't Buddhism based on the teachings of a semi-historical figure who is supposed to have been reincarnated multiple times? And what about the huge list of gods and boddhisatvas?

Come to think of it, their religious leaders are supposed to be divine beings who are reincarnated.

That bloody boddhisastvas' list goes on and on, mate.

 

[Timble2]

I suspect that since the Roman Catholic Church has outlived the Roman Empire, the Byzantine Empire, the Ottoman Empire, (to name but three that it had direct dealings, if not open conflicts with), dozens of other Empires that it dealt with tangentially, it's older than Islam and only takes orders from God, I somehow don't think it'll be more than superficially bothered that some people don't like the Pope's attitude....

 

[jefflovestone]

Oh, I don't know - white, straight males are completely open targets, apparently. It's the only group that can be openly denigrated in the media, in commercials, held up as a pargon of shiftlessness etc without any apparent protests, painfully right-on placard waving or self-righteous, angsty Grauniad columns.

Is this because a) we've had it so good for too long and now the boot's on the other foot, or b) because we're confident enough in ourselves that we don't have to look for offence in everything anyone else says, and so just let it ride?

Personally, as a white, straight male, I don't give a toss how the media portrays my demographic group. I imagine a few of the other white, straight males on here feel the same.

Life's too short.

Perhaps that answers my question.

Actually, I agree with everything you've said. I've long been a believer in the stealthy rise of misandry in this country and have commented on these boards as such in the past. Personally, I don't look for misandry in order to be offended by it but I find the insidious nature of the creeping of this chauvenistic mould annoying and worrying.

I didn't mean to imply that I thought Christianity was the only target, but when it comes to religion it often seems that way. Most religions have a certain 'coolness' factor, even it's because they are just 'unfamiliar'. I've seen people with peculiar notions on spirituality and even believe in supernatural beings but still write-off biblical Christianity as being dumb, based on lies and misconceptions and 'disproved by science'.

 

[Ravenstone]

However, I don't see how Pope Benedict could retract the statement without losing face, as he's supposed to be infallible. Tricky one.

Not tricky at all. The Pope is only infallible when making announcements about the Faith after consultation with the Bishops. He's not infallible all the time.

The College of Cardinals may yet come to regret electing such a Right Wing, ex-Hitler Youth, type chap for the Big Job.

Hmmm...cheap shot. Considering his age, and considering the polictal climate of the time, he didn't really have any option about the Hitler Youth bit, did he?

I notice, reading through one news article, that a Catholic Church in Basra has been attacked.

Also

Turkish paper Vatan quoted a member of the ruling Justice and Development Party saying Benedict "will go down in history in the same category as leaders like Hitler and Mussolini".

seems rather out of context. Anyway, didn't Hitler and Hajj Amin al-Husseini have a very good relationship?

 

[Pietro_Mercurios]

...

The College of Cardinals may yet come to regret electing such a Right Wing, ex-Hitler Youth, type chap for the Big Job.

Hmmm...cheap shot. Considering his age, and considering the polictal climate of the time, he didn't really have any option about the Hitler Youth bit, did he?

...

But, he could have said no to the Big Job, though. Rather than "cheapen" it by association.

Suitable penance?

 

[Beakmoo]

The BBC has the entire speech online.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/p ... 6_pope.pdf

So it isn't in fact a speech at all, but a lecture, the contents of which 95% of the population wouldn't be able to follow anyway. It's not like the bloke set out to announce an opinion about Islam for the benefit of the population at large.

 

[Ravenstone]

But, he could have said no to the Big Job, though. Rather than "cheapen" it by association.

Do you know, I'm not sure whether he's allowed to refuse it? Mind you, how we'd know if anyone refused the job, I'm not sure anyway.

Suitable penance?

3 choruses of Springtime for Hilter?

 

[ShadowPrime]

You just can't make up stuff this good...

"Anyone who describes Islam as a religion as intolerant encourages violence," Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Tasnim Aslam said.

Shadow

 

[jefflovestone]

You just can't make up stuff this good...

"Anyone who describes Islam as a religion as intolerant encourages violence," Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Tasnim Aslam said.

Shadow

It really is frightening that these people just can't see the irony in what they say.

 

[Ravenstone]

In fact, it's almost so silly that one could put it down to similar bad reporting that started the whole broohaha in the first place.

But that's just my Sunday Morning Suspicious Mind. Some people really do say things like that.