Muslims And Pigs

minordrag

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I don't think so.

I do remember some gruesome tales from the French Revolution, when the severed heads of royals would soundlessly move their mouths, cursing the executioner.

There were also parties, thrown by the royalty. One could only be invited if a friend or relative had been guillotined. Everyone wore a red ribbon around their neck, dressed in black, and greeted each other with a quick drop of the head. The parties became so popular that people would fake death certificates to get in!

Talk about making the best of a bad situation. "I know, let's have a theme party!"
 
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Anonymous

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Minor Drag said:
I do remember some gruesome tales from the French Revolution, when the severed heads of royals would soundlessly move their mouths, cursing the executioner.
If I remember correctly, the scientist Lavoisier said that after being guillotined he would blink for as long as possible in the spirit of empirical enquiry.
He managed at least thirteen:eek!!!!:
 
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therion said:
If I remember correctly, the scientist Lavoisier said that after being guillotined he would blink for as long as possible in the spirit of empirical enquiry.
He managed at least thirteen:eek!!!!:
I don't think that, under comparable circumstances, I'd remember to blink.

Nonny
 

evilsprout

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I'm asking a lot of pig questions today aren't I?

Is there anyone well up on Islamic law that can give me some pointers as to exactly how Muslims treat unclean animals, especially pigs? I know it's strictly prohibited to eat or touch the beast, but how does this extend to attitudes to photographs, toys and other pig-shaped artifacts?
 

stu neville

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Yes, you are :).

By way of coincidence, I was looking up something similar this week as part of a project, when I came across this page, a blog that catalogues some reported instances of pig toys, piggy banks and even a tissue box depicting Piglet being banned (the page includes a rather amusing cartoon, but let's not go there ;)).

What's interesting is the implication that many of these bannings were enacted so as not to offend broader Muslim sensibilities, as opposed to being a response to numerous direct complaints or protests. It seems that one complaint can galvanise some organisations into ludicrous degrees of over-reaction, for fear of who knows what.

Any Muslims out there comment? The ones I've asked in pursuit of the aforementioned project had no objections: like the Jews i asked, they had no problem with bacon sandwiches being on sale in the canteen, provided the Halal and Kosher stuff was kept seperate and was prepared with different implements. In essence, so long as they weren't being forced to eat it either by accident or design they didn't really care.

As for pig toys and images, again none of them had a problem with it at all. they wouldn't necessarily buy them themselves, but they wouldn't object to them being around. One Muslim said, and I quote:"What, you want us to fast-forward all the bits of the Muppets with Miss Piggy in them? Get real :roll:."
 

evilsprout

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It seems we're researching exactly the same thing, Mr Neville ;)
 

gerardwilkie

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I used to live and work in Turkey , and all my friends there were aghast that I could eat a pig , as horrified as we would be of people who ate cats or dogs or stuff , although I did have a couple of friends who tried bacon once , and they thought it tasted really nice .

There was no problem in representing pigs as toys or anything .

One curious thing however was that one of the local kebab shops sold kebabs whose meat looked and tasted like gammon . I asked the owner what type of meat it was , and he insisted it was chicken , but it was pink and tasted like pig (maybe he had some pig smuggling black market on the go , to get cheap meat).
 

Timble2

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A multinational company that I worked for used to produce a calendar every year with a fine art theme. One year they did Gainsborough, and included the picture with the young girl and two pigs. The customs/censors in Saudi Arabia ripped out the month where the picture appeared from every copy that was send to clients, contacts, agents and customers.

(Not a FOAF, the chap you compiled the calendar was my boss.)
 

gerardwilkie

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I suppose it depends on the nation you are in . Some Islamic countries are very fundamental ( Saudi Arabia in particular) and follow sharia , or Islamic law , down to a T. Other nations , like Turkey , are far more liberal ( lots of alcohol is drunk , gambling is commonplace , not everyone prays at mosque on Friday etc.) , so I suppose that is reflected in the different attitude towards pigs between Saudi and Turkey.

I never did see one pig the whole time I was there , but the Turkish word for any type of pig-meat , domuz eti , is kind of used as a euphemism for horrible food in general.
 

byroncac

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The ban on Muslims eating pigs comes from 'The Chapter Of the Table' in The Koran:

Ye are forbidden to eat that which dieth of itself, and blood, and swine's flesh, and that on which the name of any besides God hath been invocated; and that which hath been strangled, or killed by a blow, or by a fall, or by the horns of another beast, and that which hath been eaten by a wild beast, except what ye shall kill yourselves; and that which hath been sacrificed unto idols.
It's a little bit archaic but I'm working from two elderly translations of the text. It's pretty clear that pig meat is a no-no but I can't find a reference as to why an image of a pig should cause any problems!?

Oh and if your researching it yourself the Chapter of the Table is sometimes known as the Chapter of Contracts.
 

Alexius4

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Swine were somewhat taboo beasts across several ancient cultures; it has been suggested their tendency to haunt battlefields and cemetaries in search of carrion may have something to do with their malign reputation. Modern pigs are altogether more charming brutes.

While there flesh is a no-no unless pressed by direst need, the living beast itself is not vilified as such, perhaps because they are seldom encountered in real life. Dogs, on the other hand, are shunned by many as unclean to the touch, but a little water solves that one.

Interesting how carrion eaters attract all the bad publicity, isn't it?
 

Mighty_Emperor

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Alexius4 said:
Swine were somewhat taboo beasts across several ancient cultures; it has been suggested their tendency to haunt battlefields and cemetaries in search of carrion may have something to do with their malign reputation. Modern pigs are altogether more charming brutes.
My understanding was that this arose in the Middle East because of the difficulties with keeping them fressh or disease free or some such.
 

Anome

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There's also their tendency to carry parasites (tapeworms, trichnosis, etc) that are quite nasty in humans. Meaning that unless they are thoroughly cooked, there is a high risk of catching something nasty and dying.

When you look at the kosher rules, there is a great deal in there, such as the prohibition of pork and shellfish, that makes a lot of sense if you are spending 40 years in the wilderness and don't necessarily have access to reliable food storage or cooking facilities.
 

Yithian

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Anome_ said:
When you look at the kosher rules, there is a great deal in there, such as the prohibition of pork and shellfish, that makes a lot of sense if you are spending 40 years in the wilderness and don't necessarily have access to reliable food storage or cooking facilities.
Very true. Time for an update now though, surely?

Edit: Hello Alexius4, nice to see you about. 8)
 

Anome

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Well, there was that bit in the New Testament where God gave the OK to eat pretty much anything. But of course, Jewish tradition does not include that bit.
 

Rrose_Selavy

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The poor pig. Much maligned unfairly.

Stupid Pig? No relatively intelligent and often more trainable than Dogs or cats.

Dirty Pig? Give the choice, very clean , refusing to excrete where they eat or sleep.

Sweat like a pig? Pigs are unable to sweat , so they wallow in mud to stay cool.

-
 

evilsprout

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Rrose_Selavy said:
Sweat like a pig? Pigs are unable to sweat , so they wallow in mud to stay cool.
This phrase comes from the fat that comes out of a roast pig when on a spit.
 

Mighty_Emperor

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Anome_ said:
There's also their tendency to carry parasites (tapeworms, trichnosis, etc) that are quite nasty in humans. Meaning that unless they are thoroughly cooked, there is a high risk of catching something nasty and dying.

When you look at the kosher rules, there is a great deal in there, such as the prohibition of pork and shellfish, that makes a lot of sense if you are spending 40 years in the wilderness and don't necessarily have access to reliable food storage or cooking facilities.
Yep - it makes sense to encode your food safety laws as religious laws. Makes them harder to break ;)

From Wikipedia's halal entry:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halal

Forbidden substances

A variety of substances are considered haraam (forbidden), including: pork, blood, animals slaughtered in the name of anyone but God, carrion, carnivorous animals with the exception of most fish and sea animals, and all intoxicants (specifically alcohol). A section of the Muslim community believe that fish which do not carry scales as well as lobsters and crabs are considered haraam, while others believe that only those animals living in "both worlds" (land and water) are considered haraam; for example, frogs. Fish with scales are halaal if they are allowed to die on land (they cannot be beaten to death or cut apart while still alive).
and interestingly:

Comparison with Kashrut

There are some similarities between the Jewish dietary laws known as Kashrut and Muslim dietary laws. For example, both forbid all pork products, both prescribe certain methods for slaughtering animals and poultry (including the recital of a blessing to God over such animals before slaughter), and both forbid the consumption of blood and mandate that it be drained from animals after slaughter.

On the other hand, there are material differences. Islam forbids alcohol, while alcoholic consumption is allowed in kashrut (although there are strict rules that govern the kosher winemaking process). Muslims are allowed to eat the vast majority of seafood, while in kashrut all shellfish, molluscs, and selected other varieties of fish are forbidden. According to kashrut, any combination of dairy and meat products is forbidden, whereas this is considered halaal.

The Qur'anic verse 5:5 declares that the food of the People of the Book is halaal. Many interpret this reference to imply that the dietary laws are similar enough to (though less restrictive than) those regulating kashrut that Muslims can consume kosher meat and other food products when there are no halaal alternatives. Of course, kosher products that include alcohol among their ingredients are still haraam.

In certain instances, some Islamic authorities have permitted Muslims to rely upon kosher certification (particularly in regard to slaughtering) when halaal food is otherwise unavailable. This view is subject to debate, however, and is rejected by many, for a variety of reasons. Jewish authorities do not allow reliance upon halaal certification as a substitute for kashrut and many Islamic authorities argue the same for kashrut certification. Islamic groups advise using Kashrut certification only as a last resort.
which leads to:

Reasons for the Biblical dietary laws

There continues to be a debate on the purposes and meaning of the laws regarding Kashrut.

In Jewish philosophy it is recognized that many of the 613 mitzvot cannot be explained rationally. They are categorized as chukim, comprising such laws as the Red Heifer (Numbers 19). There are three basic points of view regarding these laws:

  • * One view holds that these laws do have a reason, but it is not understood because the ultimate explanation for mitzvot is beyond the human intellect.

    * A second view holds that most of the laws have some historical and/or dietary significance (such as preventing the consumption of unhealthy food, or differentiating oneself from non-Jews through dietary restrictions); and

    * A third view holds that these laws have no meaning other than to instill obedience.
    Some Jewish scholars have held that these dietary laws should simply be categorized with a group of laws that are considered irrational in that there is no particular explanation for their existence. The reason for this is that there are some of God's regulations for mankind that the human mind is not necessarily capable of understanding. Related to this is the idea that the dietary laws were given as a demonstration of God's authority and that man should obey without asking for a reason (William H. Shea, Clean and Unclean Meats, Biblical Research Institute, December 1988).

This view, however, has been rejected by most classical and modern Jewish authorities, and by modern biblical scholars. For example, Maimonides holds that all the laws given by God have a reason, that we are permitted to seek out what these reasons may be, and that we should feel comfortable in knowing that rational reasons exist for all of God's laws in the Torah, even if we are not sure of what some of these reasons are. For Maimonides, the idea that God gave laws without any reason is anathema.

Perhaps, others argue, laws in the category of chukim were given BECAUSE of the well-known Jewish tendency to rationalize and probe - a sort of reminder that yes, the Universe should be, and is explainable, but you can't understand everything. A reminder that, just as we should not sacrifice our intelligence to the alter of Obedience, we should also refrain from sacrificing our sense of mystery, at the altar of Intelligence.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashrut
 

byroncac

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Leviticus 11:7 & 8
7. And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you.
8. Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcass shall ye not touch; they are unclean to you.
So say's my King James copy of the Bible. How come then this is conveniently ignored by the millions of UK Christians who start their day with a cup of tea and a bacon butty!

In some sense it is an even more extreem taboo than found in the Koran, at least a Muslim can touch a dead pig!
 

cassie45

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A friend at work is a muslim (egyptian)and when I asked her once,she said pigs are known as garbage eaters and are listed as unclean animals.
 

Mythopoeika

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Now that there are better health and safety and food production standards today, you'd think the Jews and Muslims would update their thinking with regard to pigs.
But it'll never happen...
 

Leaferne

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byroncac said:
Leviticus 11:7 & 8
7. And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you.
8. Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcass shall ye not touch; they are unclean to you.
So say's my King James copy of the Bible. How come then this is conveniently ignored by the millions of UK Christians who start their day with a cup of tea and a bacon butty!
Because the New Testament is meant to supercede the Old, for Christians.
 

ramonmercado

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A Lone Man’s Stunt Raises Broader Issues

By KATIE ZEZIMA

LEWISTON, Me. — On a hot July night, a few dozen Somali men were kneeling shoulder to shoulder in prayer at a storefront mosque here when the door opened and the frozen head of a pig, an animal considered unclean in Islam, rolled across the floor.

Men fled in fear. A child fainted. Some called the police and ran after the person who had rolled the head in. A suspect, Brent Matthews, was quickly apprehended and charged with desecrating a place of worship. Mr. Matthews, 33, said that the incident was a prank and that he did not know the significance of a pig’s head.

Now, weeks later, Somali leaders say the incident has left a scar on their community of about 3,000 immigrants.

While they admit the act was the work of one man, it has heightened simmering tensions in this overwhelmingly white, working-class city of 35,000, where Somali refugees started flocking about five years ago, after first settling in more urban areas of the United States. Many said they came here because housing was inexpensive and Lewiston seemed a safe place to raise their families.

While much of Lewiston has been welcoming, some Somalis here believe the head incident reveals an undercurrent of suspicion and lack of understanding about their culture. According to the Census Bureau, Maine is 96 percent white.

“We’re not saying all of Lewiston is part of this,” said Imam Nuh Iman, leader of the mosque, the Lewiston-Auburn Islamic Center. “But this is the biggest impact you can have on a mosque, in the time of praying, to put in a pig’s head. It could have been a goat’s head, or a cow’s head. But it was a pig’s head.”

Phil Nadeau, the assistant city administrator, believes the incident was isolated but underscored the growing pains this city — whose mills and shoe factories, now closed, welcomed French-Canadian workers a century ago — is now going through.

“I think it’s a reflection of where we are right now. There’s a small group of people that will never accept this type of change in their community, ever,” said Mr. Nadeau, whose French-Canadian grandmother spoke only five words of English. “The second wave of non-English speakers to Lewiston is now the Somali population.”

Hussein Ahmed, 31, said the mosque incident came as Somalis here felt that they had finally started to move on from a 2002 open letter written by Laurier Raymond, then the mayor, which asked them to stop other Somalis from coming to the city. Mr. Raymond contended in his letter that the city was “maxed-out financially, physically and emotionally.”

Somali leaders quickly condemned Mr. Raymond after the letter, saying he was “bent toward bigotry.” Mr. Raymond met with Somali leaders but did not apologize. Three months later, a white supremacist group held a rally in Lewiston but was overshadowed by a counter-rally that drew 4,500 people.

The incident with the pig’s head brought a similar response. About 150 people, including Gov. John Baldacci, a Democrat, and leaders of other faiths, gathered at a park shortly after the incident to condemn it and to support the Somali community.

“After we heard about what happened at the mosque, many of us in the local interfaith clergy group felt that an attack on anybody’s house of worship is an attack on all houses of worship,” said Rabbi Hillel Katzir of Temple Shalom Synagogue Center in nearby Auburn. “This is not O.K. This is not approved of by the majority of the community. He might think it’s funny, but the rest of us don’t, and it’s not acceptable.”

Mr. Ahmed, who spoke at the rally, said it affirmed his trust in residents of Lewiston. “The message was clear: they don’t tolerate hate,” he said.

Mr. Nadeau said that Somalis continued to flock to Lewiston, about 30 miles north of Portland, and that the city was struggling to find jobs for them. The city is also trying to educate residents about the Somali culture and Islam.

“There’s still a kind of unknown element relative to people’s familiarity with their culture and religion that is still being felt, even to this day,” Mr. Nadeau said.

Mr. Matthews’s lawyer, James Howaniec, said his client had intended to play a prank. Mr. Howaniec said Mr. Matthews got the head from a pig roast in June and had originally planned to use it for target practice. Mr. Matthews then decided to plant it outside the center, thinking it was simply a gathering place, the lawyer said.

“He did not know it was a place of worship,” Mr. Howaniec said. “There’s certainly nothing in the exterior of the dilapidated storefront that would lead anyone to believe it was a place of worship. He is insistent that he did not know the significance of a pig’s head to the Muslim community.”

Mr. Howaniec said that Mr. Matthews was trying to create a disruption at the center, but that it was not a crime.

“It’s our position that while it was an act of stupidity, it did not rise to the level of any sort of crime, let alone a hate crime,” Mr. Howaniec said. “It’s clearly not something he’s proud of, but as an attorney looking at criminal statutes, I don’t think it rises to the level of desecration of a place of worship.”

Judge Ellen Gorman of Androscoggin County Superior Court on Aug. 31. granted the state’s request for a temporary injunction, ordering Mr. Matthews to stay 150 feet from the mosque.

At the hearing Mr. Matthews said that he had planned to put the head outside “where the dark people congregate” as a joke, and that it had slipped from his hand and rolled inside. He said he felt bad about the incident and wished he “could turn back time.”

Mr. Matthews will be indicted on criminal charges Sept. 6, and Mr. Howaniec said he was expecting a jury trial. If convicted, Mr. Matthews could face up to a year in jail on the desecration charge and up to $5,000 in fines.

Imam Iman said he wanted his worshippers to feel comfortable where they lived.

“Most people feel welcome,” the imam said, “but after these incidents, not at all. Mainers have to understand that this is the new Maine.”


http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/05/us/05 ... ref=slogin
 

crunchy5

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This probably belongs here rather than the T shirt thread.

http://tinyurl.com/e9ven

Britons threaten Muslim beheadings in footage
Daniel Foggo, London
September 04, 2006
FAR-RIGHT extremists have adopted the tactics of Islamic jihadis by posting videos on the internet in which they threaten to behead British Muslims.

The films show balaclava-clad white British men brandishing guns, knives and clubs, calling on all Muslims to leave Britain or be killed. One appears to be a soldier who has served in the Gulf.

In one film, a man tells Muslims to "go home" or risk being burned alive. He threatens, "I'll cut your head off", and claims to have "comrades" across Britain who have "had enough".

The videos were made after the arrests three weeks ago of suspects connected to the alleged plot to blow up trans-Atlantic jets. Their style mimics the "martyrdom videos" of Islamic radicals.

The release of the videos on YouTube, a US-based open-access website, coincides with reports of a rise in the number of attacks on mosques.

Massoud Shadjareh, chairman of the Islamic Human Rights Commission, said the videoed threats were extremely worrying.

"There is no question there has been an increase in attacks on mosques and Muslims," he said at the weekend.

The videos, posted between August 11 and 19, depict three men, each wearing a black terrorist-style mask.

Would-be viewers of the clips, lasting two to three minutes, are told in a YouTube warning the videos "may contain content that is inappropriate for some users".

In one video, a man with a London accent says: "I wish to know what we are going to do to fight the so-called religion of peace known as Islam."

He lists incidents including the racially motivated murder of Ross Parker, a white teenager, on September 21, 2001. The alleged airline bomb plot is also mentioned, with the masked man claiming it has resulted in "no retaliation" against Muslims.

He says: "It may be because you fear prison. Well, wake up. I am calling on England, Ulster, Scotland and Wales to stand and defend the island that we love."

Another video, dated August 19, shows a balaclava-clad man with a Welsh accent telling Muslims to "go home" or be burned.

Brandishing a 30cm-long hunting knife with a serrated blade, he says: "We are going to rip the life out of you. I am going to tear your guts out. I'll cut your head off."

In a reference that may indicate a military background, he says the slaughter would remind him of being "back in the Gulf".

The Sunday Times
 

James_H

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RE: the pig's head - what an idiot.
 

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“He did not know it was a place of worship,” Mr. Howaniec said. “There’s certainly nothing in the exterior of the dilapidated storefront that would lead anyone to believe it was a place of worship. He is insistent that he did not know the significance of a pig’s head to the Muslim community.”
Yeah right!
 

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ramonmercado said:
Yeah right!
So does he throw severed farm yard animal heads into other places then? What a complete bigoted knob.
 
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Anonymous

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At the hearing Mr. Matthews said ... that it had slipped from his hand and rolled inside.
This is like something a child would say! How pathetic. I suppose a dog ran off with his homework too? They should make him eat the pigs head.
 

ramonmercado

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Heckler20 said:
ramonmercado said:
Yeah right!
So does he throw severed farm yard animal heads into other places then? What a complete bigoted knob.
Makes me think, where would you throw animals heads? Is it a sport anywhere?
 

ted_bloody_maul

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ramonmercado said:
Heckler20 said:
ramonmercado said:
Yeah right!
So does he throw severed farm yard animal heads into other places then? What a complete bigoted knob.
Makes me think, where would you throw animals heads? Is it a sport anywhere?
sort of. luis figo, iirc, had a pig's head thrown at him during a game by barcelona fans after he transferred to real madrid.
 
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