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Moon Exploration: Manned Missions & Moon Bases

While applauding more action in manned space exploration, this sounds like soundbite politics. Bush won't be president in the time it would take to get another moon-shot organised. He's trying to use the "space race" fever that JFK found useful for his race with the USSR.
It'll make Americans more upbeat and optimistic - which isn't a bad thing - but there is no substance to it!
 
I'll post a little sketch of the argument for Moon colonisation I have been making elsewhere, to give an idea of how important I think it is.

What we need to do now is to sent a few thousand remote controlled robots to the Moon; the technology of robot operation is nowadays much better than 30 years ago, and improving all the time.
the light-speed delay is minimal compared to that associated with Mars, so we won't need AI.
Yet.
The mining robots can be operated by experts in shifts on Earth; a few robots could be dedicated to net connected tourism; explore the Moon's surface at will for a small fee...

The robots can assemble prospecting and mining equipment; they are looking for He3, aluminium, iron, oxygen; and particularly silicon to build photovoltaic arrays; if they find any water I will be pleasantly surprised, but basically the establishment of a power collection system is a priority.

Once there is enough power to run refining equipment the human habitats can be built; say around 2020. Hydrogen and carbon are in short supply, but I tentatively suggest that some Earth-approaching objects might have these elements in abundance-

a number of methods have been put forward to get these volatiles from the objects to the surface of the Moon, mostly involving mass-drivers.

Once a few colonies are up there, growing food in tanks or perhaps polytunnels, we can build a mass driver to put Moon mined materials into orbit, to construct spacecraft and fuel them with aluminium/oxygen, ion drive and Vasimr propulsion, fissionable elements if available, perhaps eventually He3 fusion; the Moon will be the key to the Solar System, and will become a big customer for volatiles dragged back from icy outer system bodies.

The Solar system is an inhospitable place, but the elements for life and growth are all there, just not always in the right places; gradually it will be possible to build up a circulation of volatiles and metals to create a spaceborne ecosphere which could last for hundreds of millions of years at least.
 
Expanding Space Program

Lights, camera, action!!!

It would seem that once again, moon landings will be a topic of discussion when the new space program starts "rolling."

The USA is now talking about a permanent presence on the moon and a new fleet of craft. This will be an interesting time.

In addition, there is talk of a manned flight to Mars.

Will the missions be scrutinized with all the controversy surrounding the initial Moon landings?

I will be interested to see how successful these missions will be comparing the technology of today with that of 1969.
 
not sure if this is on thread but ...........

if i was an anchient civilisation that wished to leave a legacy behine,giving they would be wiped out ...etc

the best place to leave said info or what ever would be the moon.

you would have to be advanced enough to get there so you would imagine they would have expected this advanced civilisation to be clever enough to understand the message they had decided to leave,and not obliterate themselves afterwards with there legacy.

im no buff at history but is there any storys of such a place that fits the moon?
 
Where will the money for this come from?? Or was this announced in an attempt to boost popularity?

I read on CNN that the estimate for the new project would be $1 trillion.
 
Well, going to the moon for a manned landing would probably just cost the same as a few stealth bombers I imagine.
 
The Frog said:
Where will the money for this come from?? Or was this announced in an attempt to boost popularity?

I read on CNN that the estimate for the new project would be
Originally posted by The Frog
Where will the money for this come from?? Or was this announced in an attempt to boost popularity?

I read on CNN that the estimate for the new project would be $1 trillion.
trillion.

exactly the amount saved by not implementing the kyoto protocols!
 
The Yithian said:
Cynical I know, but I'm quite surprised the Chinese authorities didn't either make sure he wasn't asked this or instruct him to answer yes.

Perhaps its a good sign that they didn't.

Saying that, if we're talking about a layer or two of translation here, "Can you [personally] see the Great Wall?" is not that far removed from "Can you [as in 'can one'] see the Great Wall?"

Just thinking aloud.

Seems like they have gone official so perhaps he was just testing the water:

China ends Great Wall space myth

China is changing official thinking about a common misconception relating to its best-known ancient site.

For decades, elementary schoolbooks have maintained that the Great Wall of China could be seen from space - but now the books are being rewritten.

The Wall, China now admits, cannot in fact be seen from the heavens - a fact proved by China's own astronaut Yang Liwei, who became the country's first person in space last year.

He said he was unable to see the ancient structure when he orbited the Earth for 21.5 hours in his spacecraft Shenzhou V.

His testimony has prompted a change of policy at China's Ministry of Education.

An unnamed official was quoted in the Beijing Times as saying the textbook publisher had been asked to remove the relevant passages.

"Having this falsehood printed in our elementary school textbooks is probably the main cause of the misconception being so widely spread," the paper said.

The earliest known stages of the Wall were built in the 5th Century BC, but not linked and extended until the Qin Dynasty between 221-206 BC.

Much of the remaining sections seen today were largely rebuilt during the Ming Dynasty (1368-1644).

The Wall was built as a defence against invasions from the north and is estimated to have stretched 6,700km from east to west.

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/asia-pacific/3505040.stm

Published: 2004/03/12 11:55:39 GMT

© BBC MMIV
 
Or not

Last American on Moon Contradicts First Chinese in Space: Great Wall Mystery Continues

By Associated Press
posted: 07:40 am ET
14 March 2004



SINGAPORE (AP) -- The Great Wall of China is visible from space, the last man to walk on the moon told a Singapore newspaper, contradicting China's first spaceman, who said he couldn't spot the giant fortification.

Apollo 17 astronaut Gene Cernan -- who walked on the moon in December 1972 -- told the Straits Times newspaper he viewed China's most famous monument from space. He said it's a matter of having good eyes and knowing where to look.

"At Earth orbit of 160 kilometers (100 miles) to 320 kilometers (200 miles) high, the Great Wall is indeed visible to the naked eye," Cernan was quoted as saying.

For decades, the Chinese have said the wall was visible from space, with elementary-school textbooks proclaiming that the structure can be seen by the naked eye of an orbiting cosmonaut.

But the myth was shattered when Chinese astronaut Yang Liwei returned from space last year and said could not see the Great Wall while in orbit.

China's Education Ministry has ordered publishers to stop printing the "falsehood" that the Wall can be seen from space, the Beijing Times newspaper said Friday.

The Straits Times interviewed Cernan last month when he visited Singapore for an Asian Aerospace show. It printed the interview Sunday after hearing about Beijing's order to revise the textbooks.

Cernan's comments also contradict the U.S. National Aeronautics and Space Administration. Its Web site says although many manmade objects can be seen from space without magnification, China's Great Wall is not among them.

The wall stretches thousands of kilometers (miles) across northern China, but is only a few meters (yards) wide. It is also made from native materials that match the color of the surrounding landscape, NASA's Web site says.

Cernan's comments in Singapore -- with 75 percent of its population ethnic Chinese _ may show he has heightened diplomatic senses along with acute vision. He also told the newspaper Singapore could be seen from space.

The tiny diamond-shaped island off the southern tip of Malaysia is too small to appear on many world maps.

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/great_wall_040314.html
 
I would suggest that the wall itself is too small to be seen, but the change in land use on either side of the wall would be clearly visible in some areas.

(looks out of window at the ancient wall of York)

from space, the wall would be tiny, but the geographical terminator it delinates might well be visible.

At sunset or sunrise the shadow of the wall might also be visible- it might depend what the time of day was when Yang Liwei failed to observe it.
 
Great Wall of China seen from space


11 May 2004

ESA's Proba satellite here shows a winding segment of the 7240-km long Great Wall of China situated just northeast of Beijing. The Great Wall's relative visibility or otherwise from orbit has inspired much recent debate.

The 21 hours spent in space last October by Yang Liwei - China's first ever space traveller - were a proud achievement for his nation. The only disappointment came as Liwei informed his countrymen he had not spotted their single greatest national symbol from orbit.

"The Earth looked very beautiful from space, but I did not see our Great Wall," Liwei told reporters after his return.

China has cherished for decades the idea that the Wall was just about the only manmade object visible to astronauts from space, and the news disappointed many. A suggestion was made that the Wall be lit up at night so it can definitely be seen in future, while others called for school textbooks to be revised to take account of Liwei's finding.

However such revisions may be unnecessary, according to American astronaut Eugene Cernan, speaking during a visit to Singapore: "In Earth's orbit at a height of 160 to 320 kilometres, the Great Wall of China is indeed visible to the naked eye."

Liwei may well have been unlucky with the weather and local atmospheric or light conditions – with sufficiently low-angled sunlight the Wall's shadow if not the Wall itself could indeed be visible from orbit.


What is for sure is that what the human eye may not be able to see, satellites certainly can. Proba's High Resolution Camera (HRC) acquired this image of the Wall from 600 km away in space. The HRC is a black and white camera that incorporates a miniature Cassegrain telescope, giving it far superior spatial resolution to the human eye.

So while the HRC resolves man-made objects down to five square metres, astronauts in low Earth orbit looking with the naked eye can only just make out such large-scale artificial features as field boundaries between different types of crops or the grid shape formed by city streets. They require binoculars or a zoom lens to make out individual roads or large buildings.

About Proba

Proba (Project for On Board Autonomy) is an ESA micro-satellite built by an industrial consortium led by the Belgian company Verhaert, launched in October 2001 and operated from ESA's Redu Ground Station (Belgium).

Orbiting 600 km above the Earth’s surface, Proba was designed to be a one-year technology demonstration mission of the Agency but has since had its lifetime extended as an Earth Observation mission. It now routinely provides scientists with detailed environmental images thanks to CHRIS - a Compact High Resolution Imaging Spectrometer developed by UK-based Sira Electro-Optics Ltd - one of the main payloads on the 100 kg spacecraft.

Also aboard is the HRC, a small-scale monochromatic camera made up of a miniature Cassegrain telescope and a 1024 x 1024 pixel Charge-Coupled Device (CCD), as used in ordinary digital cameras, taking 25-km square images to a resolution of five metres. Proba boasts an 'intelligent' payload and has the ability to observe the same spot on Earth from a number of different angles and different combinations of optical and infra-red spectral bands. A follow-on mission, Proba-2, is due to be deployed by ESA around 2005.

http://www.esa.int/esaSA/SEMTTHGHZTD_earth_0.html
 
Another ultimate Chinese Take-Away

China sets date for second crewed spaceflight
18:03 24 January 2005
NewScientist.com news service
Kelly Young

China intends to launch its second crewed rocket in September or October 2005, according to the country's official news agency, Xinhua.

The Long March 2F rocket will carry two people into orbit on the Shenzhou 6 mission, says the report, but the astronauts - or "taikonauts" - have not yet been named. During the five- or six-day mission, the crew will conduct several scientific experiments.

The successful lift-off of Shenzhou 5 spacecraft with taikonaut Yang Liwei on 15 October 2003 saw China become the third nation, after the US and Russia, with the capability to launch humans into space. Yang circled Earth 14 times, but stayed strapped into his seat during the entire mission. The next mission should see the taikonauts moving around in their capsule.

The Shenzhou 6 pair will be selected from the same group of 14 fighter pilots from which Yang was drawn, says Sun Laiyan, director of China National Space Administration, told China Daily.

The mission is unlikely to include a spacewalk, but venturing outside the capsule is probably in China's plans for 2006 to 2011. During that period, China may also attempt to rendezvous and dock two spacecraft in Earth orbit in preparation for a lunar mission. A small space station may also be planned.

China's step-by-step approach to developing their human spaceflight capabilities reduces the risk of problems, says Charles Vick, senior fellow for space policy at Globalsecurity.org, based in Washington DC, US.

"They're being very cautious - that is obvious - as they go forward," he told New Scientist. He also says the Chinese probably had to reinforce the launch-rocket to support the heavier capsule.

The possibility of a Chinese moon base "is part of the reason the US administration is pushing for a lunar effort", Vick says. But he adds that the Chinese human spaceflight program is several years behind their government-imposed schedule and is probably underfunded.

Sun met with outgoing NASA administrator Sean O'Keefe on 2 December 2004 to discuss future collaborations between the two space-faring nations.
New Scientist
 
I can see it all now.

A retro futoristic Chinese base upon the moon, with a big sign outside saying `Blue Dragon Chinese Takeaway`

Wont that be a boost to space tourism?
 
And more on the Great Wall from Space:

Great Wall visible in space photo

By Francis Markus
BBC News, Shanghai

A photograph taken from space appears to confirm that China's Great Wall can be seen with the naked eye after all.

China's schoolchildren have long been taught that the ancient fortification is one of the few man-made structures that can be picked out from orbit.

However, last year, China's first man in space disappointed the nation when he said he had failed to spot it.

Now, an official newspaper has run a picture taken by a Chinese-American astronaut showing the wall.

Leroy Chiao took what the state-run China Daily newspaper says is the first photographic evidence using commercially available equipment.

It will allow education officials to breathe more easily, after fretting over whether to change the school textbooks.

Blunted pride

In the picture, which is plastered over the front page, the wall is highlighted in orange to distinguish it from a nearby road and railway.

The picture sent back by Mr Chiao, who is currently aboard the International Space Station, was authenticated by a leading Chinese expert.

This is just as well, because the astronaut, being interviewed by satellite and e-mail, said he himself was not actually sure he had really captured the wall.

He is going to try to snap it again when he next passes over China but he will have to be quick because he is orbiting at a speed of 8km (five miles) a second.

China's pride may be a bit blunted, because lots of other things such as Egypt's pyramids and even various airports can be seen, too.

But it can take some comfort in the fact that this apparent breakthrough was at least made by an astronaut of Chinese descent.


-------------------
Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/a ... 459311.stm

Published: 2005/04/19 07:36:30 GMT

© BBC MMV
 
China's pride may be a bit blunted, because lots of other things such as Egypt's pyramids and even various airports can be seen, too.
Hardly surprising. Most major roads (motorways, etc) are far wider than the great wall, and factories, cities, and artificial harbours are even bigger.
 
The space station promised for 2005 which the chinese talked about back in 2002 is still far off.

We're still waiting for the second launch of a manned spaceflight....
 
Relax, they are still planning the Menu...

Also how to stop all that fat that gets sloshed around in wok frying from sloshing even further in zero G.
 
Homo Aves said:
Relax, they are still planning the Menu...

Also how to stop all that fat that gets sloshed around in wok frying from sloshing even further in zero G.

Good one!

Is it at all possible to Wok in Space?
Perhaps Nigella Lawson in 20 years time will have a TV show called "Wooking in Space"?
 
At the moment, no.

But Im sure the Chinese will either alter their menu, or find a way to do it, its the main thing holding back their expansion in this area.
 
See you later suckers im off to start my own country on the moon...well maybe...


How to set up a moon base


If money were no object, what would it take to build a moon base fit for human habitation? Nasa is looking into just that, using the Hubble Space Telescope to hunt for suitable locations. And what if they build on one of the millions of plots already "sold" by entrepreneurs?

It's easy - relatively - to visit to the Moon, just five days' spaceflight from the Earth. What's considerably more complicated is to set up a lunar base where humans can live, work and breathe.

That's just what Nasa is trying to do, using the Hubble Space Telescope to scout possible locations as part of George Bush's push to revisit the Moon by 2018.

Air, water and electricity are the key requirements of any habitation. Because it would be prohibitively expensive to ship out supplies, these would need to be produced on the Moon itself. For the raw materials are in plentiful - if not easily extractable - supply.

What Nasa is looking for are sites with a good supply of ilmenite, a mineral from which to extract oxygen, hydrogen and helium. As well as producing air and water, the flammable gases could be burned to generate electricity. Nasa scientists know to look for ilmenite, as it was found in soil samples brought back by the Apollo missions.

"You'd also want to use lunar rocks as building supplies - it is so costly to lift even an extra kilo of steel into space, running to many hundreds of thousands of dollars," says Professor Colin Pillinger, the planetary scientist best known for heading the ill-fated Beagle 2 mission to Mars.

"It would be not too difficult to make bricks and mortar from lunar rocks, and ilmenite would provide a nice supply of titanium, a light strong metal, and iron."

'Dark side' of the Moon

As a moon base would doubtless be involved in research, its equipment would need to be shielded from the interference spewed out by Earth's electronic chatter. This means a site on the far side of the Moon, says Professor Pillinger.

Which does rather leave its inhabitants stuck for communicating with those back home. The answer, he says, is to deploy a battery of satellites to relay messages.

Then there are the extremes of temperature - ranging from about 100C down to at least -73C - the risk of solar flares and damage done by abrasive moon dust.

While planning permission is not an issue - there is no law in space - a claim of ownership has been made by US entrepreneur Dennis Hope, who in 1980 spotted a loophole in the 1967 United Nations Outer Space Treaty.

Although no country or government can lay claim to extraterrestrial land, it makes no mention of individual or corporate ownership. Plots have been put up for sale ever since.

Thus in the 18 months since President Bush's announcement, he has received numerous letters from lunar property owners, which typically read thus:


"I do worry that the future space station might be built on my lot. So I would like to inform you that I might allow the US government to do so, but only if I am paid for that area. If this should happen, I would be ready to enter into negotiations with the US officials."
UN lawyers say Mr Hope's claim on the Moon is without merit, and no government has yet recognised his claim. That, obviously, also goes for the 3.4m people to whom he has sold lunar plots, and those who have bought from rival companies.

Mr Hope predicts moon-based colonies within 12 years, and is a key investor in the TransOrbital project, which aims to launch the first private commercial flight to the Moon at the end of the year. The ship will carry a CD detailing Lunar Embassy's ownership rights as the company believes this staking process will stand up under US property law at least.

To this end, he says he has been in negotiations with the US Government. "We are proposing to the USA and any other space-faring country to lease to them a large parcel of land at no expense for a time period of 400 years initially. This would provide them with the legal instrument to proceed with their building without violating the Outer Space Treaty."

His rivals, too, hope to turn lunar property into reality. The Lunar Registry says proceeds from its sales go towards the Kennedy II Project, a private venture to establish a permanent, self-supporting community by the end of the decade.

Caveat Emptor

But agents are under no illusions as to the appeal of lunar ownership - novelty value.

And as with any purchase, read the fine print. The Moon Estates website makes clear that owners cannot charge Nasa if they land on their plot.

"The Outer Space Treaty... states that the Moon [is] the heritage of all mankind for the purposes of exploration. So Nasa can do what they like and where they like, as long as they are exploring. But if someone wants to build a house or drill for minerals or water on your property, that is quite a different issue altogether."

But before you think the Moon is a property hotspot, read on: "The Lunar Embassy and MoonEstates.com has never and will never sell a past or planned Nasa landing site on any celestial body."

Not only is Nasa scouting their landing sites, if they do indeed opt to build on the far side of the Moon, as suggested by Professor Pillinger, no-one buys there.

"No one wants the 'dark side' of the Moon which can't be seen from Earth - we only sell on the 'bright side'," a Moon Estates agent says.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4177064.stm
 
What really gets my goat is all this buying moon plots rubbish! First landed first served/dibby in my opinion or otherwise i bagsy the rest of the solor system! HAH.


edited for grammer
 
You could move into this Moonbase I have made (using Celestia) if you like

img66.imageshack.us/img66/8664/zapod0fq.jpg
Link is dead.
zapod0fq.jpg

SALVAGED FROM THE WAYBACK MACHINE:
https://web.archive.org/web/20070512151412/http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/8664/zapod0fq.jpg


or this one

img66.imageshack.us/img66/2353/moonbase37jf.jpg
Link is dead.
moonbase37jf.jpg

SALVAGED FROM THE WAYBACK MACHINE:
https://web.archive.org/web/20070513012015/http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/2353/moonbase37jf.jpg
 
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Source
Nasa plans return to Moon by 2020 :The mission is similar in concept to Apollo

The US space agency Nasa has announced plans to return to the Moon by 2020.

Nasa administrator Dr Michael Griffin said four astronauts would be sent in a new space vehicle, in a project that would cost $104bn (£58bn).

"We will return to the Moon no later than 2020 and extend human presence across the Solar System and beyond," Dr Griffin said on Monday.

Nasa sent several manned missions to the Moon between 1968 and 1972. A total of 12 men walked on the lunar surface.

Different modules could be launched separately into space then joined together for the journey to lunar orbit.
The new missions would use rocket technology already employed on the space shuttle to cut the costs of development.

'Apollo on steroids'

Dr Griffin said the new rocket would be "very Apollo-like, with updated technology. Think of it as Apollo on steroids."

The agency chief was keen to head off criticism that the proposals amounted to a re-tread of those missions: "Much of it looks the same, but that's because the physics of atmospheric entry haven't changed recently," he said.

"We really proved once again how much of it all the Apollo guys got right."

Nasa is charged with implementing the vision for space exploration, laid out in January 2004 by President George W Bush.
This vision aims to return humans to the Moon, and then to use it as a staging point for a manned mission to Mars.

"We believe this architecture... achieves those goals in the most cost-effective, efficient manner that we could do it," said Dr Griffin in a news briefing at Nasa headquarters in Washington DC.

The space shuttle is to be retired by 2010 in order to pay for its replacement, the Crew Exploration Vehicle (CEV) - to be ready by 2012. This vehicle would be shaped like an Apollo command and service modules, but three times larger, and able to take four astronauts to the Moon at a time.

Fly me to the Moon

Nasa would begin the first lunar expedition by launching a lunar landing capsule and a propulsion stage atop a new heavy-lift rocket.

This will consist of a lengthened shuttle external tank and a pair of solid rocket boosters capable of putting up to 125 metric tonnes in orbit - about one and a half times the weight of a shuttle orbiter.

The cargo it carries could wait for up to 30 days in orbit for the astronauts to launch aboard their CEV.
Carrying a crew of four, the CEV would blast off atop a single solid-rocket booster consisting of four segments - exactly like those flown with the shuttle.

Once in orbit, the manned orbiter would dock with the lunar lander and the propulsion stage and begin the journey to the Moon.

After a three-day journey, the four astronauts would climb into the lander craft, leaving the CEV to wait for them in lunar orbit.

After landing and exploring the surface for seven days, the crew would then blast off in a portion of the lander, dock with the capsule and return to Earth, parachuting through the atmosphere to dry land.

Nasa says it will be able to recover the entry capsule, replace the heat shield and re-launch the craft up to 10 times.

Reconstruction costs

Dr Griffin dismissed suggestions that reconstruction of the Gulf Coast in the wake of Hurricane Katrina could derail the programme.

"We must deal with our short-term problems while not sacrificing our long-term investments in our future," the Nasa chief said.
"When we have a hurricane, we don't cancel the Air Force. We don't cancel the Navy. And we're not going to cancel Nasa."

But Representative Bart Gordon, a Tennessee Democrat on the US House Science Committee, said in a statement: "This plan is coming out at a time when the nation is facing significant budgetary challenges.

"Getting agreement to move forward on it is going to be heavy lifting in the current environment, and it's clear that strong presidential leadership will be needed."

Nasa also envisions the possibility of building a semi-permanent lunar base, where astronauts would make use of the Moon's natural resources for water and fuel.

(1) A heavy-lift rocket blasts off from Earth carrying a lunar lander and a "departure stage"
(2) Several days later, astronauts launch on a separate rocket system with their Crew Exploration Vehicle (CEV)
(3) The CEV docks with the lander and departure stage in Earth orbit and then heads to Moon
(4) Having done its job of boosting the CEV and lunar lander on their way, the departure stage is jettisoned
(5) At the Moon, the astronauts leave their CEV and enter the lander for the trip to the lunar surface
(6) After exploring the lunar landscape for seven days, the crew blasts off in a portion of the lander
(7) In Moon orbit, they re-join the waiting CEV and begin the journey back to Earth
8 On the way, the service component of the CEV is jettisoned. This leaves just the crew capsule to enter the atmosphere
(9) A heatshield protects the capsule; parachutes bring it down on dry land, probably in California
How long will it take me to qualify as an astronaut? 8)
 
I thought the 'aliens' had warned us off going back to the moon :shock:
 
Perhaps Dubya thinks they're storing Weapons of Mass Destruction there?
 
It would be good to see another race to the moon. Is there no other nation that could finance such a trip?
 
I'd love to see the Chinese pip NASA to the post. Take down Old Glory and fly the red flag...
 
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