Near-Death & Out of Body Experiences

F

FraterLibre

Guest
#61
so far

So far, yes. Who is to say what monitors we may develop if we care to? Nor do we yet know the nature of thought. Once we do, monitors will be inevitable.
 

Mighty_Emperor

Gone But Not Forgotten
(ACCOUNT RETIRED)
Joined
Aug 18, 2002
Messages
19,431
Likes
132
Points
129
#62
Ex-atheist describes near-death experience

By LINDA ANDRADE RODRIGUES, Standard-Times staff writer



ANDREW T. GALLAGHER/Standard-Times special


DARTMOUTH -- A native son and newspaper carrier for The Standard-Times in Falmouth, Howard Storm went on to earn a master's degree from the University of California, Berkeley, and for 20 years was an arts professor at Northern Kentucky University. An avowed atheist, he believed that there was no such thing as life after death -- until the day in 1985 when he died and went to hell.

Speaking to about 125 people at Smith Mills Church last week, Mr. Storm became very emotional, often stopping to compose himself, as he described his near-death experience, which transformed his life.

In 1985, Mr. Storm, 38, and his wife, Beverly, were in Paris on the last day of an art tour. Buckled over by searing pain in the middle of his stomach, he was rushed to the hospital. Awaiting emergency surgery, he knew he was dying. He said good-bye to his wife and drifted into darkness.

Standing up, he realized he was between two hospital beds. He looked at Beverly, who was motionless, staring at the floor, sitting in the chair next to his bed. He spoke to her, but she didn't seem to hear.

As he bent over to look at the face of the body in the bed, he was horrified to see the resemblance that it had to his own face. But he knew that was impossible because he was standing over the person and looking at him.

Off in the distance, outside the room in the hall, he heard voices calling him. They were pleasant voices, male and female, young and old, calling to him in English.

"Come out here," they said. "Don't you want to get better?"
He stepped out into the hall, full of anxiety. The area seemed to be light but very hazy, and he couldn't make out any details.

He followed them shuffling along in his bare feet with the memory of pain in his belly, yet feeling very much alive. The fog thickened as they went on, and it became gradually darker.

Overwhelmed with hopelessness, he told them he would go no farther and that they were liars. He could feel their breath on him as they shouted and snarled insults.

Then they began to push and shove him about, and he began to fight back. A wild frenzy of taunting, screaming and hitting ensued. As he swung and kicked at them, they bit him.

Even though he couldn't see anything in the darkness, he was aware there were dozens or hundreds of them all around and over him and that his attempts to fight back only provoked greater merriment.

They began to tear off pieces of his flesh, and he realized that he was being taken apart and eaten alive, methodically, slowly, so that their entertainment would last as long as possible. In that wretched state he lay there in the darkness.

Suddenly remembering a prayer from childhood Sunday School class, he said, "Yea though I walk in the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for thou art with me."

To his amazement, the cruel merciless beings were incited to rage by his prayer. They screamed at him, 'There is no God! Nobody can hear you!" But at the same time they were backing away. He realized that saying things about God was actually driving them away, and he became more forceful. They became more rabid, cursing and screaming against God, but in time, they retreated back into the distant gloom beyond his hearing.

Alone, destroyed, and yet painfully alive in this horrible place, he yelled out into the darkness, "Jesus, save me."

Far off in the darkness, he saw a pinpoint of light like the faintest star in the sky. The star became brighter and brighter. As it came closer, he realized that he was right in its path, and he might be consumed by its brilliance.

This was a living being approximately 8 feet tall and surrounded by an oval of radiance. The brilliant intensity of the light penetrated his body. Ecstasy swept away the agony. Tangible hands and arms gently embraced him and lifted him up. He slowly rose up into the presence of the light, and the torn pieces of his body miraculously healed before his eyes.

After his words of personal witness, Mr. Storm answered questions for an additional two hours.

"He told me that he has given this talk hundreds of times, but whenever he describes these creatures, he just comes apart," said the Rev. Michael Robinson, pastor of Smith Mills Church.

After Mr. Storm's near-death experience, he entered United Theological Seminary and was ordained as a minister of the United Church of Christ. Since 1991 he has been pastor of Zion United Church of Christ in Cincinnati. He documented his near-death experience in the book "My Descent into Death and the Message of Love which Brought Me Back," published in 2000.

Earlier in the day, the Rev. Storm spoke to about 30 area faith leaders at Smiths Mills Church on the topic "Bringing Passion of the Gospel into City Ministry."

"Jesus weeps for New Bedford," he said. "He can heal addictions, broken relationships and poverty. I broke every one of the Ten Commandments. Jesus can fix what's wrong with us."

To read an excerpt from Howard Storm's book, go to http://www.near-death.com/storm.html.

This story appeared on Page C4 of The Standard-Times on January 31, 2004.
http://www.southcoasttoday.com/daily/01-04/01-31-04/c04rg223.htm
 

Mighty_Emperor

Gone But Not Forgotten
(ACCOUNT RETIRED)
Joined
Aug 18, 2002
Messages
19,431
Likes
132
Points
129
#63
Go towards the light

One in ten cardiac-arrest patients report 'near-death experiences'. Now a large-scale study aims to find out what's going on
By Clint Witchalls

08 March 2004

When Jeanette Atkinson was 18 years old she was admitted to hospital with deep-vein thrombosis and seven pulmonary embolisms (blood clots on the lungs). At 9pm, Jeanette remembers the light changing, and she had the sensation of floating out of her body, down the ward and past the nurse station. The light changed again, and she found herself entering a long black tunnel. "It was turning like a corkscrew and at the bottom of this tunnel were these most fantastic lights, just like a child's kaleidoscope," she recalls. "I was going towards these lights and it was wonderful, it was peaceful, and then all of a sudden, a voice said to me: 'Come on you silly old cow, it's not your turn yet.' And I was back in my body. Back in pain, with a crash team round me. I don't remember anything else after that."

Jeanette had a strange but by no means unique experience. As many as one in 10 patients who recover from cardiac-arrest report a near-death experience (NDE), a term that came into common use in 1975 after the American physician, Raymond Moody, published the seminal book on NDE, Life after Life. It sold more than 13 million copies. Everyone wanted proof of eternity, and Moody seemed to supply it. Since then, much of the excitement has waned. People have made up their minds: either they believe NDE to be real, or they think it's just New Age mumbo jumbo; opinions have become entrenched. Nevertheless, serious scientific research has been going on in the USA, the UK and Holland.

In the UK, Dr Sam Parnia, of Southampton University, and Dr Peter Fenwick, a neuropsychiatrist, are about to embark on a large-scale study that will, among other things, look at the phenomenon of out-of-body experience (or, to use the medical parlance, "veridical perception"). They will place objects out of the line of sight of cardiac patients and ask them to report on what they saw during their out-of-body experience. Smaller studies have so far proved inconclusive. Dr Parnia and Dr Fenwick's study will cover at least a dozen hospitals in the UK.

Many people who have an NDE have reported similar experiences: a feeling of floating out of the body; a journey through a dark tunnel; a light at the end of the tunnel; feelings of indescribable joy, love and peace. Sometimes they meet a supernatural being, maybe Jesus or Buddha. There may be a reunion with deceased relatives or friends. There is often a review of their life. At some point on this journey, they get a strong pull to go back, because it's not their time yet. These experiences are fairly consistent, regardless of culture, age or religious conviction.

These people have all been dead, in a clinical sense - in other words, they have no pulse, and their pupils are fixed and don't react to strong light. Of course, they're not brain dead. There's no coming back from brain death. So are they really dead? This has been a bone of contention throughout the whole NDE field. Surely this is just a dream? An hallucination caused by a brain starved of oxygen and sugar? But Dr Parnia points to studies that have shown that during cardiac arrest and advanced cardiac life support, global brain function ceases. EEG studies have shown that electrical activity in the brain ceases at least 10 seconds prior to the heart stopping, and doesn't show any activity for up to two hours after the heart has been started again.

Of course, there's nothing to say that these experiences don't happen during the recovery phase. This is one of the arguments Dr Parnia wants to verify, by hiding his test objects in places that are only visible from above. "The key to solving this mystery lies in the accurate timing of the experiences," he says. "If it can be proven that this period of consciousness has indeed taken place during cardiac arrest, it will have huge implications."

But not everyone in the scientific world is prepared to accept that the mind and the brain might be separate entities. After a near-death experience of her own, Dr Susan Blackmore began studying the phenomenon, but the more she examined NDE, the less convinced she became of a transcendental explanation for it.

Meanwhile, the researchers Stanislav Grof and Joan Halifax have claimed that NDEs are simply the patient reliving their birth experience. Bright light at the end of the tunnel - the opening of the womb. An ineffable being suffused in white light - the midwife. Others have claimed that the experiences are mere hallucination. But why would everyone share the same hallucination on their deathbed?

As Moody says in Life after Life: "[People] will regard their own orientations as sources of explanations that are intuitively obvious, even when cases are brought up that seem to weigh against that particular explanation. Those who espouse the theories of Freud delight in seeing the being of light as a projection of the subject's father, while Jungians see archetypes of the collective unconsciousness, and so on."

But Dr Blackmore has examined all the arguments and believes she knows what causes these NDE visions. Firstly, the light at the end of the tunnel is simply "noise" in the visual cortex. It is often experienced by epileptics, migraine sufferers and those who meditate. It is not unique to NDE. The out-of-body experience? Well, if you think about the last time you walked along a beach, for example, where do you see yourself? Probably not through your eyes, but from a vantage point above or to the side of you. Most people have a bird's-eye view of themselves when remembering past events. What Blackmore found in her own studies is that people who dream from a bird's-eye perspective are more likely to have out-of-body experiences.

The American cardiologist Michael Sebom, said that some of his patients reported the exact behaviour of needles on monitoring apparatus, even though their eyes had been shut and they had been unconscious. But Dr Blackmore reminds us that the last sense to be lost is our hearing. Isn't it possible that these cardiac-arrest survivors are remembering conversations between medical staff? If Dr Parnia's study shows results, this is exactly the sort of thing that could be ruled out. An unconscious patient, even with their hearing still functioning, couldn't know that there is a red triangle taped to the top of a medical cabinet.

As for the survivors' lives flashing in front of their eyes, Dr Blackmore says that people who suffer from temporal lobe epilepsy have similar experiences. In fact, "life reviews" have been artificially induced in subjects by stimulating their temporal lobes. And the feel-good factor could simply be a release of endogenous endorphins into the brain during the trauma.

However, Dr Parnia says that these are only theories. Whether these experiences are transcendental, psychological or physiological is still open to debate. What is certain, however, is that NDEs are life- changing. "I don't fear death any more," says Jeanette. "For me, death is a progression of life. You go on to somewhere better."

"My first near-death experience was more real than ordinary life," says Dr Blackmore. "You feel as though you've woken up for the first time and that this is real and ordinary life isn't. But good science will explain those experiences to people and help them to value them, without making false leaps into paranormal belief."

So Dr Parnia and Dr Fenwick may never prove that the mind is separate from the brain, but even if they don't, their study could provide other benefits: "We may also be able to discover the biochemical pathways that convey the sense of joy that accompanies NDEs, and in so doing harness their power to treat patients with severe depression," says Dr Parnia.
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/health/story.jsp?story=499073
 

Mighty_Emperor

Gone But Not Forgotten
(ACCOUNT RETIRED)
Joined
Aug 18, 2002
Messages
19,431
Likes
132
Points
129
#64
Towards the light

March 23, 2004



Picture: Cathryn Tremain

Are powerful near-death experiences real or simply New Age fiction? Now a large-scale study aims to find out. Clint Witchalls and Michelle Hamer report.

When Sylvia Cameron was a young mother in the 1970s, she had never heard of near-death experiences and gave little thought to what might happen after death.

But at 29, the Melbourne volunteer trauma counsellor almost bled to death after her uterus ruptured from the complications of an ectopic pregnancy. While doctors struggled to save her life she experienced something she could not explain.

"I remember looking down on my body on the operating table. It was a very hot day and the doctors were in their shorts and sandals with their aprons over them," says Cameron.

"I was surprised at all the blood everywhere and slightly horrified at the conversation going on between the staff.

"The gynaecologist was giving me a heart massage, thumping my chest and saying: 'Don't you die on me now you bitch' and I was quite shocked. I thought, how dare you speak to me like that.

"Then I felt that I was drawn down a vortex or a tunnel and I could see this light at the end of the tunnel and I could see people standing there, but because the light was behind them I couldn't see any faces. It was all very natural, I wasn't frightened.

"I turned my back on these people and said 'I don't want to come yet'. I felt I had too much to do; I felt I wasn't ready for that — whatever it was. When I woke up I was back in the recovery room."

After getting a negative response from the few people she told, she pushed the experience to the back of her mind.

Cameron had a strange, but by no means unique, experience. As many as one in 10 patients who recover from cardiac arrest report a near-death experience (NDE), a term that came into common use in 1975 after the American physician Raymond Moody published the seminal book on NDE, Life after Life. It sold more than 13 million copies. Everyone wanted proof of eternity, and Moody seemed to supply it.

Since then, much of the excitement has waned. People have made up their minds: either they believe NDE to be real or they think it's just New Age mumbo jumbo; opinions have become entrenched.

Nevertheless, serious scientific research has been going on in the US, Britain and the Netherlands.

In Britain, Dr Sam Parnia, of Southampton University, and Dr Peter Fenwick, a neuropsychiatrist, are about to embark on a large-scale study that will, among other things, look at the phenomenon of out-of-body experience (or, to use the medical parlance, "veridical perception").

They will place objects out of the line of sight of cardiac patients and ask them to report on what they saw during their out-of-body experience. Smaller studies have so far proved inconclusive.

Parnia and Fenwick's study will cover at least a dozen hospitals in the UK.

Many people who have an NDE have reported similar experiences: a feeling of floating out of the body, a journey through a dark tunnel, a light at the end of the tunnel, feelings of indescribable joy, love and peace.

Sometimes they meet a supernatural being, maybe Jesus or Buddha. There may be a reunion with deceased relatives or friends. There is often a review of their life. At some point on this journey, they get a strong pull to go back because it's not their time yet.

These experiences are fairly consistent, regardless of culture, age or religious conviction.

These people have all been dead, in a clinical sense — in other words, they have no pulse, and their pupils are fixed and don't react to strong light. Of course, they're not brain dead. There's no coming back from brain death. So are they really dead?

This has been a bone of contention throughout the whole NDE field. Surely this is just a dream? An hallucination caused by a brain starved of oxygen and sugar? But Parnia points to studies that have shown that during cardiac arrest and advanced cardiac life support, global brain function ceases.

EEG studies have shown that electrical activity in the brain ceases at least 10 seconds prior to the heart stopping, and doesn't show any activity for up to two hours after the heart has been started again.

Of course, there's nothing to say that these experiences don't happen during the recovery phase. This is one of the arguments Parnia wants to verify by hiding his test objects in places that are only visible from above.

"The key to solving this mystery lies in the accurate timing of the experiences," he says. "If it can be proven that this period of consciousness has indeed taken place during cardiac arrest, it will have huge implications."

But not everyone in the scientific world is prepared to accept that the mind and the brain might be separate entities. After a near-death experience of her own, Dr Susan Blackmore — senior lecturer at the University of the West of England — began studying the phenomenon, but the more she examined NDE, the less convinced she became of a transcendental explanation for it.

Meanwhile, the researchers Stanislav Grof and Joan Halifax have claimed that NDEs are simply the patient reliving their birth experience. Bright light at the end of the tunnel — the opening of the womb. An ineffable being suffused in white light — the midwife. Others have claimed that the experiences are mere hallucination. But why would everyone share the same hallucination on their deathbed?

As Moody says in Life after Life: "People will regard their own orientations as sources of explanations that are intuitively obvious, even when cases are brought up that seem to weigh against that particular explanation. Those who espouse the theories of Freud delight in seeing the being of light as a projection of the subject's father, while Jungians see archetypes of the collective unconsciousness, and so on."

But Blackmore has examined all the arguments and believes she knows what causes these NDE visions. Firstly, the light at the end of the tunnel is simply "noise" in the visual cortex. It is often experienced by epileptics, migraine sufferers and those who meditate. It is not unique to NDE.

The out-of-body experience? Well, if you think about the last time you walked along a beach, for example, where do you see yourself? Probably not through your eyes, but from a vantage point above or to the side of you. Most people have a bird's-eye view of themselves when remembering past events. What Blackmore found in her own studies is that people who dream from a bird's-eye perspective are more likely to have out-of-body experiences.

The American cardiologist Michael Sebom said that some of his patients reported the exact behaviour of needles on monitoring apparatus, even though their eyes had been shut and they had been unconscious. But Blackmore reminds us that the last sense to be lost is our hearing. Isn't it possible that these cardiac arrest survivors are remembering conversations between medical staff?

If Parnia's study shows results, this is exactly the sort of thing that could be ruled out. An unconscious patient, even with their hearing still functioning, couldn't know that there is a red triangle taped to the top of a medical cabinet.

As for the survivors' lives flashing before their eyes, Blackmore says that people who suffer from temporal lobe epilepsy have similar experiences. In fact, "life reviews" have been artificially induced in subjects by stimulating their temporal lobes. And the feel-good factor could simply be a release of endogenous endorphins into the brain during the trauma.

However, Parnia says that these are only theories. Whether these experiences are transcendental, psychological or physiological is still open to debate. What is certain, however, is that NDEs are life changing.

The experience left Sylvia Cameron with no fear of death. She also developed a heightened interest in spiritualty. "I learnt an awful lot from it, although I didn't learn it immediately. I felt rather honoured that I'd had that experience."

She now has a clear idea of what happens when we die. "We don't finish, we pass over to something else," she says.

Blackmore says: "My first near-death experience was more real than ordinary life.You feel as though you've woken up for the first time and that this is real and ordinary life isn't. But good science will explain those experiences to people and help them to value them, without making false leaps into paranormal belief."

So Parnia and Fenwick may never prove that the mind is separate from the brain, but even if they don't, their study could provide other benefits.

"We may also be able to discover the biochemical pathways that convey the sense of joy that accompanies NDEs, and in so doing harness their power to treat patients with severe depression," says Parnia.
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/03/22/1079939578423.html
 
F

FraterLibre

Guest
#65
A Worthy Experiment

That has been done time and again by the remote viewers, who often got the clues right.
 

Mighty_Emperor

Gone But Not Forgotten
(ACCOUNT RETIRED)
Joined
Aug 18, 2002
Messages
19,431
Likes
132
Points
129
#66
Following a Bright Light to a Calmer Tomorrow

By ANAHAD O'CONNOR

Published: April 13, 2004



Carlene Huesgen is not afraid of death, she says. Not since she felt herself slip from her body, float to a hospital ceiling and move toward a bright light three decades ago.

"I feel assured that there is life after death," said Ms. Huesgen, 61, who lives in Tucson. "There really isn't such a thing as dying."

To some people, near-death experiences reported by millions of Americans in recent years, are windows to a world beyond. To others, they are simply comforting delusions.

Scientists have tended to fall into the latter group. But in several small studies, researchers are finding that the elaborate accounts of mysterious tunnels, flooded with bright golden light, may be a healthy coping mechanism that protects against traumatic stress.

People who have such experiences, one study shows, are far better at handling stress than researchers had expected. And scientists have uncovered neurological and biological differences that may lie at the core of the coping mechanisms.

"We found that people who have these experiences are just the opposite of what people think," said Willoughby B. Britton, a doctoral student at the University of Arizona who is the lead author of a study in the April issue of Psychological Science. "They aren't more likely to run away from stress."

Almost everyone, at some point in life, experiences a moment of fear and anxiety after a catastrophe. For some people like those with post-traumatic stress disorder, the effects can linger for years, returning as flashbacks, nightmares or emotional numbness.

But people who report having had out-of-body experiences like Ms. Huesgen, who suffered a near-fatal reaction to an influenza shot 34 years ago, exhibit the reverse. Their lives are changed.

They switch careers and adopt new values. Many fears they had are erased.

Ms. Britton and a colleague, intrigued by the lack of scientific information on the subject, compared a group of people who reported near-death experiences, including Ms. Huesgen, with a group that had not.

The scientists assumed that the near-death group would show patterns of brain activity similar to those seen in temporal lobe epileptics, who often describe undergoing spiritual out-of-body events during seizures. The abnormal activity, however, did not spring up in the right temporal lobe, as is sometimes the case with epilepsy. Instead, the activity appeared almost exclusively in the left temporal lobe.

Unexpectedly, the researchers also found that the participants, like many people who suffer depression, had abnormal sleep patterns. But unlike people with depression, who move unusually quickly into the rapid eye movement or REM phase of sleep, the subjects who reported near-death experiences took an unusually long time to move into REM.

"This is the first study to show these kinds of neurological differences in people who have near-death experiences," Ms. Britton said.

Psychological tests showed that the participants' physiological differences were associated with what the researchers called active coping, a tendency to "take the bull by the horns" in stressful situations. The findings conflict with those of earlier studies, which found that people who distanced themselves from traumatic experiences were more likely to develop post-traumatic stress disorder.

Dr. C. Bruce Greyson, a psychiatrist at the University of Virginia, has noticed a similar trend in his research. In two studies of hundreds of people who reported near-death experiences, Dr. Greyson found that they showed surprisingly few signs of shutting out reality, a behavior known as dissociation.

Though they had slightly more dissociative symptoms — daydreaming, for example, or forgetting to eat lunch while reading a book — than other people, their responses were still far from pathological.

"They were still within the normal range," Dr. Greyson said. "In fact, people who have N.D.E.'s tend to be a little healthier than others. They seem to have positive coping skills."

From 9 to 18 percent of people who have almost died, Dr. Greyson said, later report having had near-death experiences. As medical techniques to save patients become increasingly sophisticated, that number is likely to grow.

In the early 1980's, a nationwide Gallup poll found that eight million Americans said they had had near-death experiences. By the late 90's, 15 million people reported having had them.

Most doctors dismiss such events as hallucinations caused by medication. Other experts suggest that the illusions are caused by oxygen deprivation or the last-minute firing of neurons in the visual cortex.

Dr. Greyson theorizes that the experience may be a protective mechanism that insulates some people against developing post-traumatic stress disorder. Certain personality traits, he suggests, may make some people more likely to have near-death experiences, while others are predisposed to developing severe psychiatric illnesses.

The evidence of active coping and physiological differences in people who have had near-death experiences squares nicely with that theory, Dr. Greyson said.

But there is still a question of cause and effect.

"We don't know yet whether these were pre-existing characteristics that caused the N.D.E. or whether they are the result of the experience," he said.

The answer may soon be clear. In a study that began this year, Dr. Greyson is interviewing a large group of heart patients before they undergo surgery to implant automatic defibrillators in their chests.

In the operation, the patients are briefly put into cardiac arrest, setting the stage for some to have near-death experiences. Several months later, Dr. Greyson will interview them again, looking for any near-death aftereffects.

"There are so many things to measure — anxiety, depression, adjustment, acceptance of death," he said. "We're still just scratching the surface. There's a whole lot more to be done."
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/13/health/psychology/13DEAT.html
 

Mighty_Emperor

Gone But Not Forgotten
(ACCOUNT RETIRED)
Joined
Aug 18, 2002
Messages
19,431
Likes
132
Points
129
#67
Tales from the other side: Woman shares prophecies in near-death society

By: Stacy Rector , Staff writer
04/21/2004

Once each month, the longtime Coppell resident attends a meeting in which everyone in the room has the same open mind. The group is called IANDS, and it stands for the International Association for Near-Death Studies.

"There are so many people out there that are ashamed and skeptical," Loter said. "People do raise their eyebrows, and I did, too."

The group meets the first Tuesday of every month at First United Methodist Church in Lewisville.

Attending the group meetings helps people such as Loter share their near-death stories, dream-related experiences, unexplained phenomenon or frightening premonitions with others who have had the same experiences.

During the April meeting, Seattle resident Bill Bandenbush talked about his book, written about his near-death experience in Vietnam.

Loter is not alone in her eerie situations, though. According to University of North Texas counseling, development and higher education professor Janice Holden -- who was recently elected president of the International Association for Near-Death Studies -- thousands of people have reported near-death experiences, describing them as "hyper-real," or more real than life itself.

Before it happened to her, Loter didn't believe anything like that was possible.

"I was the world's greatest skeptic," Loter said.

Her first experience took place when she was 28. While taking care of her two children, she fell into a deep depression.

"The kind when you open the blinds, it's still dark," Loter explained.

Her mother was dying, and life was incredibly overwhelming. Though she never considered attempting suicide, she felt a strong desire not to continue living. It was then that she remembered the Biblical scripture "Let not your heart be troubled."

"I walked down the hall and the room lit up," she said. "It felt like someone touched my shoulder and was going to help me through this. Then the light went away so quick, but the feeling of such joy stayed."

Her second experience came 15 years ago. Loter, who had spent some time working in psychiatrics, woke up and knew she was dying. Suddenly, she saw someone standing nearby who she felt had come for her. She lifted her head up and said "God?" and the figure nearby said, telepathically, "She's not ready."

Then, her deceased brother appeared next to her bedside and telepathically said, "Don't be afraid."

While she had always been afraid to speak the name of this brother, who was quite cruel in life, she was no longer scared.

"He was different wherever he had gone to," Loter said. "I was able to call his name after that."

With this premonition came the name of a medication, one that would turn her medical problems around to where death wasn't knocking.

Perhaps the most chilling story Loter shares with other women is that of her annual mammogram appointment. Eight years ago, she received a clean bill of health when she went in for a routine exam and was told to come back in one year.

She had a dream, and in this dream, her deceased twin brother was holding her hand. He told her to look in the corner, where she saw a "C" in the dark spot. When she woke up, she had a feeling she had carcinoma; that feeling was correct. She will have been cancer-free for eight years in June.

Another dream followed shortly thereafter. She was standing in an outhouse with an angel as if they were negotiating death.

"Then, she flew toward me with an ageless face and telepathically said, 'Your fear is a reality,'" Loter said. "I felt wonderful when I woke up. Now, I talk to people about cancer and have no fear."

Loter, who has lived in Coppell since 1988, volunteers at nursing homes and visits with AIDS patients when they're dying. She feels that some of her premonitions have caused her to share her time in this avenue.

In one of those visions, she is surrounded by people who she was helping and an angel keeps getting in her face.

"I went out to see what she wanted, and I looked up and the angels were pulling the clouds apart," Loter said. "Jesus came out and I wanted to see his face, but it was just a light. I said to him, 'I'm not ready.'

"I felt love - so much more than romantically, when you fall in love," she said. "In that moment I felt integrated, I became a different person. After that...I'm not religious, but I wanted to go help people."

"It's such a comforting story to other people," she said. "I know if I can share it and help somebody. I feel a glow inside of me if I can share it."

Anyone who has had premonitions or near-death experiences is invited to attend IANDS meetings.
http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=11362486&BRD=1426&PAG=461&dept_id=528193&rfi=6
 

Mighty_Emperor

Gone But Not Forgotten
(ACCOUNT RETIRED)
Joined
Aug 18, 2002
Messages
19,431
Likes
132
Points
129
#68
Near death awareness: Journies?

Taking Life's Final Exit

Patients nearing death often speak of traveling, even asking for maps. A hospice nurse says they 'experience something we can't describe.'




By Valerie Reitman, Times Staff Writer


PHILADELPHIA — My brother took more trains, planes and automobiles in the last week of his life than he had taken in months, perhaps years. Those journeys were all the more surprising because they occurred in an intensive-care unit at the end of his three-year battle with bone marrow cancer.

Bedridden after being rushed to the hospital for what would be the final eight days of his life, Kenny casually mentioned that he was visiting Detroit. It was a rather odd place for him to be traveling — even if only in his imagination — because the hospital was near home in suburban Philadelphia and he didn't have any ties to the Motor City.

But it was near a border, a border he seemed intent on crossing, be it real or metaphoric.

"How far is it to Canada?" he wanted to know. "Where's the map?"

Though very weak, Kenny, 45, intermittently recognized and chatted lucidly with family gathered by his bedside. But he would drop in news of his varied travels: He had gone skiing one afternoon in Australia, he told us, stopped by North Carolina another day, and more than once had been "stuck in passport control."

At first, our family dismissed these journeys as confusion; we would laugh through our tears about the various places and modes of transport he had been taking. It must be the painkillers, we thought. Or maybe hypoxia, the oxygen deprivation in the blood that often contributes to delirium in sick people. Or that the cancer now was destroying his mind, just as it had racked his body.

But then our cousin Lynne mentioned that her parents had done a lot of similar traveling in the last days of their cancer battles. Uncle Larry (Lynne's father) had insisted that his passport and fanny pack be kept by his bedside; he was intent on keeping an imaginary 3 p.m. appointment with the emperor of Japan, where I was living then and where he had hoped to visit. He too had asked for a map — of Japan. Aunt Lois, who had died four years before, had talked about needing to catch a train, asking Lynne to buy her a ticket.

There seemed to be a pattern. A nearby bookstore turned up a 1992 title that offered some clues: "Final Gifts: Understanding the Special Awareness, Needs and Communications of the Dying."

Its chapter titles were uncanny: "Where's the Map?" and "I'm Getting Ready To Leave." Authors Patricia Kelley and Maggie Callanan, longtime Washington, D.C.-area hospice nurses, had heard similar talk so often from their dying patients — conveying this sense of moving from one place to another, of being in transition — that they concluded it must be a special language the dying have to communicate what is happening to them.

"It would be easy to say it's just coincidence, but when you see it over and over, there has to be something there," Kelley said in a telephone interview. "I do think people experience something we can't describe."

The authors termed the phenomenon "nearing death awareness" — a state they think reveals what dying might be like and what a person needs to die peacefully.

It has some similarities with the more widely known near-death experiences reported by some patients who are resuscitated on operating tables or at the scenes of accidents. They report seeing a bright light at the end of a tunnel, with people and events of their lives flashing as if in a kaleidoscope.

In contrast, however, those dying slowly often talk of preparing for a trip or of trying to finish something, Kelley and Callanan found, perhaps using language pertaining to their professions or hobbies. One dying man who liked to sail, for instance, talked about the ebbing of the tides; a watchmaker mentioned that the clock was not ticking fast enough; a carpenter described details of completing an imaginary house.

The observations built on an earlier four-year study by physicians Karlis Osis and Erlendur Haraldsson, in which hundreds of physicians and nurses observed 50,000 dying patients from India and the U.S. In both cultures, patients commonly reported deathbed visions of movement toward something and of being greeted by deceased loved ones who were helping them to "cross over" in their last moments.

Several healthcare workers and bereaved families interviewed for this article also witnessed similar phenomena. A few days before Jennifer Lee Foster, 26, of Millbrook, N.Y., died of leukemia, she told her relatives she had seen a young neighborhood boy who had been killed years earlier in an auto accident. The boy said, " 'How you doing, Jen? I was waiting to say hi to you,' " recalls her mother, Jean DiMarco, of Millbrook.

Kathy Pollard, educational director at Hospice of the Valley in Phoenix, said that she had seen dying patients countless times shaking their heads "yes" or "no" and making motions with their hands as they talk with deceased people.

Loved ones shouldn't argue, but simply affirm what the person is saying or inquire about what they're seeing or doing, Pollard says. One sweet old lady put her hand up and touched Pollard's cheek one day, and said, "Oh, my dear — isn't the train we're on beautiful?"

"Are you on a train?" Pollard asked.

"Yes, I am," the woman replied.

"Oh, where are you going?" Pollard asked.

The old woman's eyes closed. "I'm on the way to South Dakota."

"And what will happen when you get there?" Pollard replied.

"Well, my dear," the old lady answered, "then the journey will be over."

Just before Pollard's own father died two years ago after a stroke and a fall in a nursing home, he kept saying, "Ma, Ma, open the door." Pollard leaned in close and whispered, "You can open the door, Dad."

Says Pollard, "We believe the patient is on the journey and they are going to make the decision when the train stops or when to open the door [and die]. We reassure the patient that he or she's going to be OK, and say things like, 'Dad, you've been a great father — I'll miss you like crazy, but you're going to be OK.' "

As Kenny did, the dying frequently mention being "stuck" or "held up" — which Kelley and Callanan say may indicate something is keeping them from letting go — such as concern about how a spouse or children will cope or the need to take care of something undone or to see a loved one. A young man dying of AIDS told Kelley about his father being "in the way." They had long been estranged, and the young man was hoping (for naught) that his dad might visit.

The phenomenon isn't universal. Some are too sick; others can't talk. Moreover, a person's behavior in death will typically be much like it was in life — a very private person isn't likely to become talkative on his deathbed. And not everyone who speaks of wanting to go home or take a journey is talking about death.

An elderly woman in her 80s pleaded with Sara Perry, a social worker at Montgomery Hospice inpatient program in Maryland, to take her home. Perry told her soothingly that "sometimes when people are as sick as you and they talk about going home, they are really talking about going to heaven." The woman shot back, "Listen, honey, I'm talking about going home to my apartment."

Why dying people speak of taking journeys is anyone's guess. Drugs don't seem to play much of a role, hospice workers say, because the phenomenon occurs both in those who are taking painkillers and those who aren't. If anything, they say, the more drugs one takes, the less likely any conversations.

Others speculate that the dying may be experiencing visions similar to those in a dream. "The mind has its own set of analgesics," said sociologist Robert Fulton, a University of Minnesota professor emeritus and a pioneer in the study of death and bereavement in the 1960s. "The mind is well capable of drugging itself. In a dream, there might be the euphoria of meeting a dead friend and having a conversation…. The brain is kind of cleaning itself up, like a computer downloading."

The dreams are reinforced by images of immortality, and of heaven and hell or reincarnation, embraced throughout history as well as in modern life. Kelley speculates that the dying recognize "that they're going from one world to another one" or the feeling that they're "going somewhere."

Perhaps the travels are due to a "freeing up" of the spirit once the dying person has accepted that death is imminent, said Dr. William Lamers, who set up the second hospice in the U.S., in Marin County in the 1970s. This brings about a phenomenon he has witnessed again and again: The dying person, if in a comfortable setting and in little pain, is at peace with his or her condition and takes interest in the well-being of the survivors, who often aren't nearly as comfortable with the imminent death.

That can be particularly true with dying children, says Betty Ferrell, a nurse and research scientist at City of Hope National Medical Center in Duarte, who has worked with the dying for 25 years. The child might say that angels came to visit and beckoned him to come. But rather than finding it comforting that the child isn't afraid, parents get upset, and say, " 'Oh no, you're staying right here with me,' " Ferrell says. (Ferrell directs a new national program to help nurses better understand and care for dying patients, using "Final Gifts" as a text.)

Then there are those who believe that maybe — just maybe — the dying really are going on journeys or being visited by their deceased loved ones. Author-hospice nurse Callanan sees no harm, and maybe some consolation, in such credence.

For my family, just knowing that so many others had taken such "journeys" on their deathbeds gave us comfort, as we passed around "Final Gifts" during long hours at the hospital. We came to believe that Kenny had reconciled himself to dying. A strapping 6-foot-3 electrical engineer who hadn't taken a sick day in more than 20 years at the steel mill he helped run, Kenny had vowed that he had "no doubt he'd beat this thing," even though multiple myeloma is virtually incurable and most patients live three to five years at most.

The most promising treatment — a stem-cell transplant followed by a bone marrow transplant from our brother Bob, an exact match — didn't work, and our hopes for a long remission faded. Drug after drug failed, and tumors on his spine threatened paralysis. A month before his death, his local oncologist — handing his wife, Cyndie, and son, Zach, a box of tissues as he matter-of-factly delivered the news — advised that the most humane thing would be to stop treatment.

Still, Kenny wouldn't give up and asked his main oncologist in Philadelphia to try something else, telling him that he knew he was going to die eventually, but intended to live a few more years rather than a few more weeks. The doctor complied with another experimental drug. Kenny grew weaker, however, until he could barely walk and couldn't climb the stairs to bed.

Once settled into the ICU with oxygen, he was more comfortable — and began to accept the reality. "It seems like my body's telling me something…. Everything seems to be shutting down."

The death-related imagery soon started popping up, what Callanan termed "previews of coming attractions." Kenny thought he had seen towels labeled "hospice" as he came into the hospital. One day, he told his teenage children there were buzzards in the hospital room corner. When they told him that wasn't true, he replied calmly, "It's only natural," indicating to us that he didn't find this image of death at all macabre.

He mentioned being visited by "John," but couldn't tell us who John was except to deny it was anyone we suggested. Only weeks after his funeral did we figure out that he probably meant our brother Chris' father-in-law, whom he didn't know well, but whose wake he had attended months earlier.

Three nights before he died, he told daughter Jessica, 16, to "get my shoes, Jess. We need to get on the boat." Did he mean the small catamaran he sometimes sailed with our father, we asked. "No, it's a big boat," he retorted, seeming indignant that we couldn't see what he could. "Where's my green duffel?" he said. "I need to pack."

When a nurse popped in later, he inquired in earnest, "Do we change buses here?"

I stayed with him through that night, and he asked out of the blue, "Is the viewing today?" Do you want a viewing, I asked, knowing how much he hated them and preferred cremation. "Well, you don't know whether to have one or not," he replied. "I guess you could have one and I don't have to be there."

I reread aloud to him the beautiful letters Zach, Louise and Jess had written, thanking him for being such a wonderful father and telling him how much they loved him. More than likely, it was concern for them that was keeping him from letting go.

"Losing you is going to be really hard, but you need to stop suffering …." Jessica wrote. "And don't feel bad that you're going to be leaving us, OK? I love you so much, Daddy. I will miss you so much. You will always live on in spirit. Goodbye, Daddy. Your daughter forever with love, Jessica." And she drew five stick figures, with a caption, "We will always be a happy family."

He started to cry. "Oh Val, what am I going to do?" But a half-minute later, it was as if, mercifully, he was somewhere well beyond the gravity of it all. He stopped crying and asked quizzically, "Val, where are we?"

Is there anything he wanted me to tell his wife and kids for him, I asked, a redundant question because he had often told them how much he loved them.

"No," he replied, "I'll write on the plane."
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/state/la-he-journeys14jun14,1,3564534.story?coll=la-news-state
 

Mighty_Emperor

Gone But Not Forgotten
(ACCOUNT RETIRED)
Joined
Aug 18, 2002
Messages
19,431
Likes
132
Points
129
#69
Long article over at SI:

Darkness, Tunnels, and Light

Stories of darkness, tunnels, and bright light told by those who report near-death experiences actually have a basis in the structure and functioning of the eyes, the brain, and other sense organs that operate during these experiences.

G.M. Woerlee

...........
Full text:

http://www.csicop.org/si/2004-05/near-death-experience.html

Emps
 
F

FraterLibre

Guest
#70
One is Not the Other

Trouble with this logic is that one experience may only mimic the other. We don't know and there is no way to tell.

If a monk levitates and Penn & Teller come along and show how it can be done using physics and stage magic, their demonstration does not address whether or not the monk actually levitated. Only that the same or similar effect can be faked.

There really are old documents. However, there are many methods one can use to fake them.

All the faked ancient documents in the world do not invalidate the few real ancient documents.

With NDE, the reported experiences seem to match, yes. But how can we be sure they are the same? We can't.

And therein lies the rub.
 

Mighty_Emperor

Gone But Not Forgotten
(ACCOUNT RETIRED)
Joined
Aug 18, 2002
Messages
19,431
Likes
132
Points
129
#71
An interesting presonal story:

My Last Breath
by Matthew D. Dovel

Paperback: 152 pages ; Dimensions (in inches): 0.40 x 7.94 x 6.14
Publisher: Publishamerica; (November 1, 2003)
ISBN: 1413701949

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1413701949/
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1413701949/

Best summed up in one of the reviews:

The book "My Last Breath" by Matthew D. Dovel is a very interesting and intense story of someone who had two near-death experiences which resulted in him first going to heaven and then hell the other. This makes Dovel's near-death experiences unique in that one was heavenly and the other was hellish. Most NDEs involving a person experiencing both heaven and hell are within the same NDE. It is refreshing to read the comparison between the two destinations from someone who experienced both but at separate times. "My Last Breath" is easy to read and thought-provoking at the same time. As it is with many NDEs, many of his profound insights requires time to fully digest as you reflect more and more on his wonderful message. Undoubtedly, such insights require the rest of your life to fully appreciate. In essence, "My Last Breath" is not only a fascinating read, it is also a guide on how spirituality can be applied in everyday life. - Kevin Williams, "Near-Death Experiences and the Afterlife" http://www.near-death.com
Emps
 
F

FraterLibre

Guest
#72
Must've Been a Doozy

One is forced to wonder what he did between going to heaven and going to hell. lol
 
F

FraterLibre

Guest
#74
Golden Shower of NDE?

LOL - Yes, that cover is atrocious beyond words. They must've gotten it from the HOW NOT TO SELL BOOKS catalogue.
 
F

FraterLibre

Guest
#76
The Uterine Opening

Memories of birth can be EVER so troublesome, but really, that sweaty face on the fellow's book is revolting. Had he opted for a nice painting I'd like it a lot better. lol
 

rynner2

Gone But Not Forgotten
(ACCOUNT RETIRED)
Joined
Aug 7, 2001
Messages
55,239
Likes
9,002
Points
284
#77
"There are two basic hypotheses," said Paul Kurtz, a retired philosophy professor and founder of the Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal.

"One, something leaves the body, the spirit or soul, goes to another realm, returns and reports. Two, this is a physiological process that alters consciousness, triggers bright lights, tunnel vision, out-of-body experiences and the like. That latter makes much more sense to me."
This is part of a longish article on NDEs HERE, and the non-CSICOP point of view is covered too!

I won't quote the whole article, but it gives a good overview of the phenomenon, and would serve as a good introduction if NDEs are fairly new to you. (Or you could always read the rest of this thread!)
 

Reneehsv

Gone But Not Forgotten
(ACCOUNT RETIRED)
Joined
Jun 13, 2005
Messages
50
Likes
1
Points
24
#78
Very interesting stuff.

I remember when I was 10, my mother had a NDE. She didn't tell me, but I overheard her on the phone w/ my aunt (her sister). She was very upset about the whole experience. She used to get horrible migraines that would just cripple her for days and she was in bed w/ a migraine one night, and she went on to explain suddenly looking down at her body, the tunnel of light and a voice telling her "don't go too far, you can't go back" the whole way until finally this voice yelled "touch something". Just so happened my step fathers leg touched her at the same moment (I guess he was rolling over) and she was back in bed w/ the same migraine. I remember this like yesterday because I was listening to her conversation (she didn't know it at the time) with extreme interest. I believe it was then that my interest in anything paranormal began. :)

She had this experience in the 70s, must have been around 79 cause I was about 10 at the time. That was before TV shows about NDE, internet, etc.
 

rynner2

Gone But Not Forgotten
(ACCOUNT RETIRED)
Joined
Aug 7, 2001
Messages
55,239
Likes
9,002
Points
284
#79
ReneeHSV said:
She had this experience in the 70s, must have been around 79 cause I was about 10 at the time. That was before TV shows about NDE, internet, etc.
Interesting story. Only a few years after Moody's book came out, so NDEs wouldn't have been that well-known then.
Long relegated to the realm of the paranormal, NDE burst on the scene 30 years ago when Raymond Moody, an East Coast psychiatrist, published Life After Life, examining reports of near-death experiences -- a term Moody coined.
Yes, "Very interesting stuff"!
 

jandzmom

Gone But Not Forgotten
(ACCOUNT RETIRED)
Joined
Apr 28, 2005
Messages
95
Likes
10
Points
24
#81
Near Death Experience - Child

Hi All,
This near-death expereince happened to our son when he was two years old (he's now in highschool).

I had taken our son (J) for his 2 year old check up and vaccinations. He had an immediate reaction to the Diptheria/Pertussis/Tetinas (sp?) combo vaccine (also know as the DPT). I was a young mom, and when the nurse said this was no big deal, I just took him home.

Within 24 hours, J had a bad seizure, vomitted and choked on it. Waking up from a dead sleep in the morning to this happening (J was sleeping with us) hubby called 911, and I did the heimlic maneuver and CPR on our son. He had stopped breathing and was completely gray. I got him breathing about 5 minutes afterwards. The EMTs came and transported him to the hospital. He stayed in hospital for a day, and was sent home.

Because J was so young, we were very careful not to let him know the severity of what had happened (we just told him he had the flu) and how this whole episode upset all of us. We tried to act like everything was normal. A few weeks later, I was getting J ready for a nap, reading to him and snuggling on the couch.

He looked over at me and said, "Mommy, I died."
I said, "Huh?"
J said, "I died. But a big man, the biggest man, was with me at a big lake of water. He said, "Your mommy and daddy love you and you need to be with them. Go home now!"
Totally shocked, I said, "Really?"
J said, "Yes. I was afraid of the man, because he was so big, so I went home."
I asked J, "But was he a nice man?"
J said, "Yes, I think so. But he was scary because he was so big."

Not knowing what else to say. I just went back to reading to him. When he fell asleep, I called our church and told the pastor (a family friend and someone really good with kids) what happened, and asked what I should do next. He told me to act as if nothing has happened and just be ready to listen if J wanted to talk about it again -- but not try to get additional information about his NDE. The pastor said he wasn't suprised, that children often remember NDE experiences, and that they forget them as they get older.

J subsequently forgot about his NDE. But we'll never forget it -- and we are so glad "the big man" sent him home! :D

JandZmom
 

akaWiintermoon

Gone But Not Forgotten
(ACCOUNT RETIRED)
Joined
Jan 3, 2002
Messages
561
Likes
15
Points
49
#82
Wow, first of all please accept my empithy. I know it happened a while ago but I know the shock stays with you. How flippin scary.
I wonder if the 'big man' your child saw was an angel? I've read about angel sightings and they're always described as huge (8Ft + in some cases). I belive your child as what youngster, especialy a two y/o, has any conception of death or dying?
 

Redhead666

Devoted Cultist
Joined
Aug 9, 2005
Messages
129
Likes
15
Points
34
#83
akaWiintermoon said:
Wow, first of all please except my empithy. I know it happened a while ago but I know the shock stays with you. How flippin scary.
I wonder if the 'big man' your child saw was an angel? I've read about angel sightings and they're always described as huge (8Ft + in some cases). I belive your child as what youngster, especialy a two y/o, has any conception of death or dying?
I love to hear children's accounts of NDE's!

A few years ago in my local paper was an article about a local woman who was out driving with her small son. It was winter ( near Christmas I think), she went across a slippery bridge, the car lost control and went right over and down a steep embankment. The car flipped over and came to rest on a beach.

The mother was killed in the crash, but the boy was thrown from the car and landed on the beach, but not seriously hurt. I think it was a day before anyone found them.

Once the boy was in hospital and reunited with his remaining family he told them two people came across the water and stayed with him on the very cold dark beach and kept him company until rescuers came.

:)
Edited to add link to this article:

http://web.tiscali.it/AMPUPAGE/todd.txt
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
#84
NDE child

Hi Janzmom.

I can imagine how your son's revelation would come as a shock... but how reassuring at the same time, do you not think?

I agree with the other respondents - sounds like an angel to me :D
 

jandzmom

Gone But Not Forgotten
(ACCOUNT RETIRED)
Joined
Apr 28, 2005
Messages
95
Likes
10
Points
24
#85
We think that it was one of three possibilities of who he might have seen -- an angel, God or someone from my side of the family that had already past, as I have had some really tall people on my side (I had an uncle that was almost 7 feet tall.)

But we still don't get his being at a "big lake" part. Again, worried for his emotional, developmental, and mental health, I didn't probe on the experience. Everyday, we were looking for signs that the little guy had some sort of brain damage from the seizure and lack of oxygen.

On a related note, I do believe that my children have had some sort of unseen protection -- I believe that they have angels and God watching over them.

JandZmom
 

Redhead666

Devoted Cultist
Joined
Aug 9, 2005
Messages
129
Likes
15
Points
34
#86
jandzmom said:
We think that it was one of three possibilities of who he might have seen -- an angel, God or someone from my side of the family that had already past, as I have had some really tall people on my side (I had an uncle that was almost 7 feet tall.)

But we still don't get his being at a "big lake" part. Again, worried for his emotional, developmental, and mental health, I didn't probe on the experience. Everyday, we were looking for signs that the little guy had some sort of brain damage from the seizure and lack of oxygen.

On a related note, I do believe that my children have had some sort of unseen protection -- I believe that they have angels and God watching over them.

JandZmom
That's interesting, J.....do you have further evidence that they have angels watching over them besides the NDE?
 

Redhead666

Devoted Cultist
Joined
Aug 9, 2005
Messages
129
Likes
15
Points
34
#87
I forgot to add this thought about the big lake:

With the thousands and thousands of reports of NDE's, you often hear and read about what heaven looks like. I suppose it is possible that if your child had been there and then returned to here, he could have seen a magnificent body of water there. Maybe that was the big lake.
 

jandzmom

Gone But Not Forgotten
(ACCOUNT RETIRED)
Joined
Apr 28, 2005
Messages
95
Likes
10
Points
24
#88
Redhead666 said:
jandzmom said:
We think that it was one of three possibilities of who he might have seen -- an angel, God or someone from my side of the family that had already past, as I have had some really tall people on my side (I had an uncle that was almost 7 feet tall.)

But we still don't get his being at a "big lake" part. Again, worried for his emotional, developmental, and mental health, I didn't probe on the experience. Everyday, we were looking for signs that the little guy had some sort of brain damage from the seizure and lack of oxygen.

On a related note, I do believe that my children have had some sort of unseen protection -- I believe that they have angels and God watching over them.

JandZmom
That's interesting, J.....do you have further evidence that they have angels watching over them besides the NDE?
As far as hard evidence...no. I've never seen an angel or God or any other spirit (although I think I would be open to that.) But my children have been in other life or death situations where I believe that someone was watching over them. You've heard about J's experience, and here are Z's experiences:

Z was a toddler (almost 3), getting into things and escaping the house if he wasn't being watched closely at all times. I was alone with both boys, and J was getting sick in the upstairs bathroom -- I was helping J, and turned my back on Z, who promptly unlocked the door and let himself out of the house, and out onto the side road next to our little townhouse where a neighbor had parked his big motorcycle. I had heard the door slam, so I ran down the stairs and out the door to see Z as he pulled this motorcycle down onto himself. I must've let out a bloodcurdling scream, and another mother ran out of her house and together we lifted this huge motorcyle off my son. I expected the worst. Z wasn't even crying, and after a trip to the hospital to check him out, had no bumps, bruises or broken bones.

Another example:
Hubby and I were asleep. He is a "dead to the world" sleeper. He said he felt someone shake him to wake him up, and once awake, decided to check on the boys. He saw Z laying half off his bed, and went to tuck him back in, and realized there was something wrong. Our son, had been seizing for two hours and was minutes from death (according to tests later taken at the hospital.) The doctor told us if my hubby had not woken up and found Z, our son would've been dead in the morning, and we never would have known what had happened to him.

Yes, we've had some very scary things happen. Thank God, someone has been watching over us.
 

rynner2

Gone But Not Forgotten
(ACCOUNT RETIRED)
Joined
Aug 7, 2001
Messages
55,239
Likes
9,002
Points
284
#89
Redhead666 said:
I forgot to add this thought about the big lake:

With the thousands and thousands of reports of NDE's, you often hear and read about what heaven looks like. I suppose it is possible that if your child had been there and then returned to here, he could have seen a magnificent body of water there. Maybe that was the big lake.
According to the press report, the car crashed onto a beach on the Bay of Fundy, so would have been by the sea.

However, FWIW, this area has the highest tidal range in the world, so depending on the state of the tide and the steepness of the beach, the water could have been a long way off.
 

Redhead666

Devoted Cultist
Joined
Aug 9, 2005
Messages
129
Likes
15
Points
34
#90
rynner said:
Redhead666 said:
I forgot to add this thought about the big lake:

With the thousands and thousands of reports of NDE's, you often hear and read about what heaven looks like. I suppose it is possible that if your child had been there and then returned to here, he could have seen a magnificent body of water there. Maybe that was the big lake.
According to the press report, the car crashed onto a beach on the Bay of Fundy, so would have been by the sea.

However, FWIW, this area has the highest tidal range in the world, so depending on the state of the tide and the steepness of the beach, the water could have been a long way off.
Sorry rynner, you misunderstood me. In the above quote where i refer to the big lake, I was talking about jandzmom's experience. She said her child told her about seeing a big lake.

In the newspaper article, yes the car crashed on a beach..i know because it happened near where I live, but that is not the big lake I was referring to. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
 
Top