New Zealand Pre-History & The Kaimanawa Wall

[Kingsize Wombat]

There have been short discussions in other threads about an alternative history of New Zealand's indigenous population - but I think it deserves its own thread.

This is as good a starting point as any:

In 1996, the alternative historian Barry Brailsford drew the world’s attention to the Kaimanawa wall in New Zealand. The curious structure lies in the Kaimanawa State Forest, south of Lake Taupo on North Island. A tremendous amount of controversy erupted surrounding the wall after Brailsford and David Childress claimed that the wall is man-made and pre-dates Maori colonization of New Zealand by about 1200 years. Such information, if true, would have rewritten the history of New Zealand. Additionally, there would have been complex and far-reaching political and financial implications for the local Maori tribes.

The stones consist of ignimbrite, a type of rock that results when pyroclastic pumice solidifies after a volcanic blast. The structure seems to bear the hallmarks of a deliberate construction with neat rows of stacked blocks. Precision joints and surfaces appear carved or sculpted. The most heated area of contention about the wall is its age.

The theory of pre-Maori civilization in New Zealand conflicts with the current understanding of the first settlements of the islands. Based on archaeological evidence, the first wave of Maori arrived sometime between 1250 and 1300 from Eastern Polynesia. Subsequently, other waves of Maori followed. The oldest official archaeological site and perhaps the very first settlement in the islands is located at the Wairao Bar on South Island. Scientists recorded about 2000 artifacts and 44 human skeletons and found that many of them originated directly from Eastern Polynesia.

Another discovery alludes to a group that arrived much earlier than once thought. Richard Holdaway dated the bones of a Kiore rat at 2000 years old. Indigenous mammals did not exist in New Zealand. Therefore, the rat found its way to the remote lands only with the assistance of human mariners. Interestingly, the DNA of the rats show a close link to those of the Society and Cook Islands. Thus, experts generally believe that the Polynesians who came from that region of Eastern Polynesia to settle New Zealand transported the rats with them. If there were rats in New Zealand 2000 years ago, humans must have already found their way there. However, as with the stone wall, there is some controversy about Holdaway’s dating results which some scientists question.

https://www.historicmysteries.com/kaimanawa-wall/

Of course - believers will believe and debunkers will debunk - and there is a debunk of the wall as a man made structure at the link below:
https://skeptics.nz/journal/issues/41/a-new-age-myth-the-kaimanawa-wall

But even if that wall is a natural formation, it doesn't rule out that there were people in NZ before the Maori. Indeed, Maori tradition states that there were other people already present when they arrived - the Waitaha, which were later assimilated by the Maori. And these people were red heads!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patupaiarehe.

It's a fascinating tidbit of human history, and there seems to be no consensus in sight.

 

[Naughty_Felid]

Tread carefully on this one!

 

[Kingsize Wombat]

Tread carefully on this one!

I do hope we can discuss this here without any nasty undertones. Like we do other topics.

 

[EnolaGaia]

I do hope we can discuss this here without any nasty undertones. Like we do other topics.

What, exactly, is it you wish us to discuss? The 'wall', the history of human residence in New Zealand, or the connection of them both?

 

[James_H]

This is like the Solutrean hypothesis of the settlement of the Americas - the waters get muddied by groups who have an agenda to push.

 

[Naughty_Felid]

What, exactly, is it you wish us to discuss? The 'wall', the history of human residence in New Zealand, or the connection of them both?

The whole subject of who populated New Zeland first heavily influences current ongoing Maori land claims under the Treaty of Waitangi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Waitangi.

Some white, (Pakeha), New Zealanders claim that Maori were not the first to populate the country so don't have a claim to the land. Some Maori see this as pure racism and a way to prevent them from claiming what is there's by right.

Maori are still the most disadvantaged in the country when it comes to health, education, employment, etc, despite lengths to address this.

The wall has been tested by a geologist who states it is a natural rock formation and not a wall built by people. Maori arrived in various waves between the 13th and 14th century and this is backed by current archaeology. Other people feel that the wall builders arrived two thousand years ago and cite Maori oral traditions that suggest Maori fought a pale-skinned race when they arrived. They also believe there are variously hidden archaeological sites containing ancient petroglyphs hidden on Iwi, (Maori tribal), lands which Maori refuse to publically acknowledge.

Resentment and racism lie fairly close to the surface of New Zealand society. It's not as bad as Australia but it is there. This is a recent illustration.

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-...-ori-santa-speaks-out-for-the-first-time.html

The Patupaiarehe I feel are no different from elves or fairies in European folklore. Rather than an early Waitaha pre-Maori race.

I'm Pakeha but also have a few "brown cousins". I'm sure there were scattered people, (lost early voyagers, etc), here before Maori but I don't think it was the sustained migration that Maori were involved in. There is no evidence to back this up. Just accusations and conspiracy theories by people who want to dispute Maori claims.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/science/100629585/dna-who-were-the-first-humans-to-reach-aotearoa

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waitaha_(South_Island_iwi)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Māori_settlement_of_New_Zealand_theories

 

[James_H]

A case in which the evidence is actually pretty good for an area being populated by 'white' (light-haired, coloured-eyed) people in ancient times is the Tarim basin in Xinjiang, China. This is controversial with some groups, not least because some Uyghur separatists use it to support their claim to the area (most scholars think Uyghurs arrived in the area some thousands of years after the culture that left the Tarim mummies. The Han Chinese arrived even later).

https://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/19/world/asia/19mummy.html

 

[EnolaGaia]

NF:

Thanks for the overview ...

I was generally aware of the contentious socio-political context, within which such past historical matters potentially carry current and future ramifications. The more I looked into the wall itself the more I came to sense this context (rather than an archaeological context) provided the 'real story' here.

As such, and FWIW ... IMHO one has to be strongly motivated (by some non-archaeological agenda) to try and 'spin' a few meters' worth of pretty obviously natural exposed rock as a mysterious artificial wall.

 

[Kingsize Wombat]

As such, and FWIW ... IMHO one has to be strongly motivated (by some non-archaeological agenda) to try and 'spin' a few meters' worth of pretty obviously natural exposed rock as a mysterious artificial wall.

The subtext was sort of provided at the link. I just put that post here for future discussions of the matter, as the story evolves.

The more DNA testing is being done in the Polynesian population, the more we will learn about the history of human settlement in that general area. I have no dog in the fight one way or another, I am just fascinated by the subject.

 

[Naughty_Felid]

The subtext was sort of provided at the link. I just put that post here for future discussions of the matter, as the story evolves.

The more DNA testing is being done in the Polynesian population, the more we will learn about the history of human settlement in that general area. I have no dog in the fight one way or another, I am just fascinated by the subject.

check the Stuff link in my above post.

 

[skinny]

It is likely there were waves of migration from Sundaland (Indonesia area) out into the Pacific islands for many many thousands of years - way long before the currently assumed (academic) settlement date of the Maori. The remnant mythologies and their connections to related 'western' stories is testament to this likelihood.

That isn't to say the Maori don't have native title, but perhaps even their own ancestral picture is far broader and is still emerging. The whole idea of a static date of settlement anywhere seems unlikely to me. I accept without reservation that there could have been prior populations on both islands prior to Maori development of the landscape.

 

[Naughty_Felid]

It is likely there were waves of migration from Sundaland (Indonesia area) out into the Pacific islands for many many thousands of years - way long before the currently assumed (academic) settlement date of the Maori. The remnant mythologies and their connections to related 'western' stories is testament to this likelihood.

That isn't to say the Maori don't have native title, but perhaps even their own ancestral picture is far broader and is still emerging. The whole idea of a static date of settlement anywhere seems unlikely to me. I accept without reservation that there could have been prior populations on both islands prior to Maori development of the landscape.

The trouble is there is no accepted evidence that there was any other occupation before the arrival of Maori. Once people start settling the landscape they start leaving their mark. Evidence of the early deforestation puts it within the time of the Maori arrival. All archeological evidence found fits within the time of Maori arrival. There was talk that the Polynesian Rat was there much earlier than previously thought, (two thousand years ago), but this has been recently challenged and they arrived around 1250, the same time as Maori.

I don't think the Maori were the first to arrive, but they were the first to populate, shape the land and more importantly leave their mark. I don't see the arrival as static but it is defined within a certain timeframe.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2409139/

https://books.google.co.nz/books?hl=en&lr=&id=QrokQRbstacC&oi=fnd&pg=PT8&dq=stone+tools+new+zealand&ots=h7CVeQ2dlO&sig=34K8DqesRbAm0d7lZJSrE8-0ONA#v=onepage&q=stone tools new zealand&f=false

https://teara.govt.nz/en/history/page-1 (Sad there isn't a pottery trail as Maori lost the art)

Skinny I'm not that knowledgeable on Maori mythology or Whakapapa, is there a link between that and western mythology?

Also just to put it all into perspective Tonga was first populated 2900 years ago that is mightly impressive. It puts the Vikings to shame really.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/207656/Tongan-site-dated-oldest-in-Polynesia

 

[Kingsize Wombat]

I don't think the Maori were the first to arrive, but they were the first to populate, shape the land and more importantly leave their mark. I don't see the arrival as static but it is defined within a certain timeframe.

I think this is closer to hitting the mark. I just find it hard to believe that the rest of the area was populated more than 2000 years ago - except NZ.

And then there is the Maori oral tradition, and I do put a lot of faith in these oral traditions as they have often been proven to be right.

The absence of archaeological evidence does not mean there was no one there. The question is, what could you find? Seafarers in wooden canoes wouldn't leave all the much behind for us to dig up.

 

[Naughty_Felid]

The absence of archaeological evidence does not mean there was no one there

Using that argument you could say the Loch Ness monster lived there or aliens you've got to go with evidence at some point.

The question is, what could you find? Seafarers in wooden canoes wouldn't leave all the much behind for us to dig up.

Depends who they may have been. The Lapita culture made pottery as did the ancestors of the Tongans the art sort of fizzled out after them. If they had landed it is probable they might have left pottery behind. They would have certainly used stone implements none have been found pre-Maori

Nothing man-made has been found under the area covered by the Hatepe Eruption. As far as I'm aware there are no stories regarding this eruption either. If people were alive living in New Zealand during that time they would have known about it. The would have certainly shared tales with the Maori new arrivals.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatepe_eruption.

It's possible that domesticated animals may have survived pre-Maori visitations but there is no evidence of them either. If you landed in New Zealand you would have found a relatively easy place to survive in. There were no natural predators, an abundance of food, (lots of ground birds for example). The Moa died out after the arrival of the Maori after all.

There is also no genetic evidence that suggests the Maori interbred with the Patupaiarehe. Maori would have enslaved those they had conquered or even cannibalised them as the Taranaki Maori did with the Moriori.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moriori

Big map showing human movement across the Pacific.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/52/Chronological_dispersal_of_Austronesian_people_across_the_Pacific_(per_Bellwood_in_Chambers,_2008).png

The Polynesians may have felt there was nothing "south" and didn't bother heading there or those that did simply died.

 

[Kingsize Wombat]

The absence of archaeological evidence does not mean there was no one there

Using that argument you could say the Loch Ness monster lived there or aliens you've got to go with evidence at some point.

Yes. And no.

We have no archaeological record for the earliest Australians either, which has made dating their arrival a hotly contested issue. But arrive they did.

The Polynesians may have felt there was nothing "south" and didn't bother heading there or those that did simply died.

Aye, there's the rub. They came so far and then stopped - just short of a couple of large islands with plenty of food and without large predators. Weird.

 

[Naughty_Felid]

Yes. And no.

We have no archaeological record for the earliest Australians either, which has made dating their arrival a hotly contested issue. But arrive they did.



Aye, there's the rub. They came so far and then stopped - just short of a couple of large islands with plenty of food and without large predators. Weird.

Over two thousand miles from say Tonga, not a little hop - Oral tradition may have warned the south was dangerous.

 

[Naughty_Felid]

I don't think there were Celts with bronze swords and breastplates hunting Moa. Like I said if someone arrived before Maori it was just other Polynesians.

 

[Kingsize Wombat]

I don't think there were Celts with bronze swords and breastplates hunting Moa. Like I said if someone arrived before Maori it was just other Polynesians.

That I totally agree with.

The Maori tales of red headed people tends to throw people off. There were and are red headed Polynesians.

 

[skinny]

Skinny I'm not that knowledgeable on Maori mythology or Whakapapa, is there a link between that and western mythology?

Apparently. I'm reading a book atm which puts forward a good case for a kind of venn overlap between Laurasian and Oceanic mythologies with striking similarities in the star lore and celestial symbology, especially between the Polynesian and Egyptian cosmologies. I'm not sure whether this counts as 'evidence' for anything yet, but there's something there worth considering further. I'll report back once I've finished the book and had time to process it.

 

[Kingsize Wombat]

Apparently. I'm reading a book atm which puts forward a good case for a kind of venn overlap between Laurasian and Oceanic mythologies with striking similarities in the star lore and celestial symbology, especially between the Polynesian and Egyptian cosmologies. I'm not sure whether this counts as 'evidence' for anything yet, but there's something there worth considering further. I'll report back once I've finished the book and had time to process it.

Is that the one by Laird Scranton?

 

[skinny]

Star.Ships ~ Gordon White