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Nick Redfern Solves Roswell!

wembley8 said:
Wikipedia doesn't buy it and says why...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roswell_UFO_incident

Redfern bases his theory primarily on five sources, all of whom approached him, and several of whom Redfern says he knows to have been in contact with one another, raising the possibility of collusion. The main source was an unnamed colonel who provided details of the actual crash and other manned high-altitude experiments using human guinea pigs that supposedly took place from May through August 1947. Another source, an unnamed official in the British Home Office, initially approached Redfern in 1996, and also claimed that he and others were told in 1989 of the alien Roswell crash and shown the alien autopsy film by the CIA and British Ministry of Defense in an attempt to dissuade them from pursuing their own UFO studies. But instead, they allegedly suspected the Roswell story given them was bogus and the autopsy film a fake, part of a cover story to hide criminal U.S. experiments on Japanese POWs. Even Redfern admits he initially found this source's approach, story, and willingness to publicly disclose such information suspicious.

There are also no documents to support that any such program ever existed. One of Redfern's sources claimed that all documents and photos plus bodies were destroyed to eliminate all traces of this criminal activity. Some critics of Redfern's thesis note it is almost entirely based on dubious testimony of a few people who approached Redfern, nearly all of whom admit to previous psyops/counterintelligence backgrounds, with conveniently no way to ever check their stories against official records since allegedly all such records have been destroyed.

Critics also note other problems, such as the gross mismatch between the materials described by most witnesses from the Brazel debris field--numerous, mostly small metallic pieces with anomolous properties scattered along a long linear path--and what would be expected from a balloon crash. Redfern's sources also claim that part of the flying wing craft and one of the Japanese crew were carried away with the balloons and were also found near the main debris field. Redfern states high priority was attached to recovering these and searches were initiated. Left unexplained is the seeming absence of any tracking or how searchers could have missed spotting the large, fully-exposed debris field from the air, despite over two days having elapsed from the time of the alleged disaster. Redfern attributes this to "bad luck."

Another serious objection raised was the historical fact that there were no survivors of the medical experiments of Japanese Unit 731. They were all killed to eliminate evidence when the Russians invaded China and quickly overran the Japanese positions. Hence there were no genetically deformed bodies for the U.S. to "snatch," seriously undercutting one of Redfern's key "horrible truth" arguments supposedly underlying the Roswell crash and subsequent coverup.
Click to expand...

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/world/archives/2005/07/20/2003264263

In April, the same court rejected a separate compensation lawsuit filed by victims of Unit 731 together with survivors of the 1937 massacre in the city of Nanjing.

there are survivors of unit 731 experiments, see link above.
 
I read the Taipei Times report differently - the people involved were victims of Unit 731, which 'bombed' cities with biological agents etc :

"The case has been brought by 180 Chinese plaintiffs who claim they are the victims of Japanese germ warfare attacks during World War II. "

http://www.china.org.cn/english/2001/Dec/24353.htm

These are not the victims of experiments. If you can find evidence that there were survivors then Redfern might have the start of a story, otherwise it looks fabricated.
 
Yes, it doesn't actually mention that they were survivors of Unit 731 camps, etc..

Aside from that, I tend to agree with the Wikipedia overview of this story. It's the usual suspects there - unnamed 'inside sources' that aren't verifiable by any independant parties. It still seems to me to be an attempt to shoehorn the disperate Roswell stuff into one Grand Unifying Theory.
 
Witness Account ¨C Systematic Test on Ally POWs¡¯ Endurance

In October 1942, about 1,000 US troops had been singled out and marched to Manila, the capital of the Philippines. They went aboard the Japanese vessel the Totori Maru.


This was recalled by Greg Rodriguez Sr, retired now from his career as a foreman in Henryetta, Oklahoma.

¡°From the moment we went aboard that hell-ship, they were experimenting on us. They threw us on board to see how much we could stand, and many of us died. They took us from the tropics to bitterly cold climate, and that took its toll on us. They gave us a few crackers and a little rice to eat and I feel that it was a systematic way of beginning to test us, to find out how much the Americans and the British and Australians could endure.¡±
back

http://www.sjwar.org/htm/731-06.html#06

there are ex-pow testimony accounts of unit 731 camp experiments, but maybe there are no testimony of japanese experiments on japanese subjects because the japanese government don't actually admit that unit 731 existed, or didn't until very recently.
 
Ungodly secret experiments, collaboration with depraved Axis scientists and war criminals, horribly malformed bodies in the desert ---
It's all uncomfortably close to a queasy blend of some X-Files episodes with a bit of The Boys From Brazil thrown in for good measure...

Anyway, here is Kevin Randle's review of the book:

http://www.fatemag.com/2005_09art2.html
 
"there are ex-pow testimony accounts of unit 731 camp experiments, but maybe there are no testimony of japanese experiments on japanese subjects"

As you may know, the Mukeden testimony is disputed - if you believe the hype, it's all part of a huge coverup which covers US biological weapons in Korea etc. (I suspect this story might have inspired Mr Redfern)

Unit 731 worked on Chinese (and other nationalities) not Japanese AFAIK, and I would be very surprise if any of them survived the 'cleaning up'.
 
Stanton Friedman has just posted a review of Redfern's book on his website. He is predictably unimpressed, and as an ex nuclear physicist who was working on goverment projects back in the 1950s, he is perhaps better qualified to comment on Redfern's allegations than most.

http://www.v-j-enterprises.com/sfredfern1.html
 
REDFERN was naive to believe he would end the Roswell controversy. His informants are certainly suspect; be they disinformers, double-bind mis-informants, people having made sincere inquiries, or a mix of that. They give contradictory versions. The Colonel speaks of gliders and planes, the Black Widow of gondolas. And if he intended to end it, he should have been more serious and opened a history book. There are huge historical inconsistancies in his book. Whether there were survivors of Unit 731 is controversial. Whatever, the USA could never put their hands on them. Because it was located on Soviet occupied territory, the US Army had never access to it ( http://www.ovni.ch/home/frame4.htm ). And the Japanese scientists who worked at the Unit didn't use handicapped people as guinea pigs. They intended to experiment on sane subjects.

So the part with Unit 731 is bogus. It seems more like a hollywoodian addition, to increase the horror of the situation. REDFERN needs it to assert his main line of argumentation: the US government tries to hide a truly horrific event, so hideous that the truth can't be revealed more than half a century later. But the "truth" he describes is in no way so horrible that it could justify such a need for secrecy, I think. Plus he makes some errors. He naively tries to shoehorn evidence in the "established" Roswell scenario. He ignores many correction, as if no progress had been made. For example, he still seems to believe that Dr Lincoln LA PAZ investigated the July 1947 incident. So, his book, badly written, is not a good book. It will be easily dismissed by roswellians as mere disinformation to hide the "true truth". By sceptics (or at least some of them) as a futile attempt to fit to the "classic" scenario, whose accuracy was never established.

But that doesn't mean this book has no interesting contents. He's not the first to put forward this hypothesis. But he cites truly interesting documents, which could shed a new light on what actually happened. Some of these put more nails on the "it's only a Mogul" theory coffin. While some others contradict some assertions made by the e.t. craft crash. proponents. For these documents only, his book is worth reading, as they show that this theory may have at least a part of truth.
 
Two sets of documents have a potentially great importance. According to REDFERN, one of them comes from the files of a Colonel Otis BENSON. He was appointed Commander of the Aeromedical Medical Unit at the Wrighf Field Base in September 1940. He would have been then appoited as commander of the School of Aviation Medicine in 1949. His duty involved studying capsule ejection, high altitude human body resistance, decompressure... I notice that REDFERN gives only a poor background study. How did he obtain these files? Were they known before, but no one noticed them? Were they previously classified? (Body Snatchers in the Desert, p.126 to p.129). This is disapointing, because they are rather intriguing. Judge for yourselves:

One of the documents was written by BENSON on 22 September 1947 to the Office of the AIr Surgeon. It was titled "Analysis of Factors Contributing to 'Pilot Error' Experiences in Operating Experimental Aircraft Controls":
>"Enclosed for your information is a copy of Research Memoranda TSRAA-694-12 from Psychology Branch, Aero Medical Laboratory, subject as above. Incidents of errors in experimental Aircraft controls were obtained through accidents reconstruction and written 621 Projects reports.The recent air accidents at White Sands Proving Ground, as outlined by 28 May Collection Branch, Air Intelligence Requirements Division Report dealing with mutant experiments of extreme flight, capsule ejection, and decompression effects, could be classified under six major categories as follows: (1) substitution errors, (2) forgetting, (3) adjustment errors, (4) reversal errors, (5) unintentionnal activities, and (6) unable to reach controls."
In regards to radio-biological hazards, the Army Air Forces Tactical and Technical Liaison Committee, in conjunction with the Atomic Energy Commission, has initiated action to determine the requirements for procedure to assure the relative safety of those concerned with "special" flight operations. The Army Air Force and Tactical Liaison Committee requested as a "Research Flight Surgeon" representing Headquarters, Army Air Forces to conduct radio-biological hazard studies incident to the work of this project. These studies were performed at Kirtland Field and all data was classified "Restricted Data" under the provisions of AAF Letters 46-22 and 46-22A."
As to the actual causes of the two incidents on 25 march and 4 july 1947, of the loaned S-Aircraft (PF), analysis of the engine design and thrust stress factors, P9 personel and Atomic Energy Commission consultants in conjunction with advisory people from Army Air Forces Advisory Groups, and Armed Forces Special Weapon Project, could not fully agree as to the exact cause of engine failure in both cases. One plausible problem has been examined which might help in correcting "Pilot Error" operation. Interaction of symbolic instrumentation with tactile manipulation of flight controls and pilot shielding in high performance operation, has been a continuing factor of study by Research and Development."

BENSON wrote the 1 July 1947 in another document:
>"Distinct Progress has been made in aero medical research during the past (1947) fiscal year. In these passing twelve months, much has been learned about the ability of the human body to withstand fairly high "G" forces of short duration, such as would occur in ejection vertically from a disabled aircraft or downward ejection in which negative "G" forces are applied. There have been two highly successful human ejections during flight at 260 miles per hour and these experiments will be greatly extended in the next three months at higher speeds utilizing a greater variety of aircraft. Progress has been much slower and less distinct in human studies directed toward "capsule" ejection at very high speeds. Undoubtly, much of the data being obtained in other ejection experiments will apply."
A partial pressure suit has been developed that will permit life in a vacuum and laboratory personnel have made simulated ascents to 106,000 feet. The pilots of the S-aircraft have been fitted with models of the suit to permit full altitude exploitation of the experimental aircraft. Progress has been made on all medical aspects of prone position for pilots. Explosive decompression has been further studied and men subjected to this phenomenon from 40,000 to 65,000 feet. The development of oxygen generating plants has progressed and there have been forward strides in perfecting all of the components of the aircraft and personnel oxygen equipment. New aircraft oxygen liquid systems have been flight tested to 45,000 feet with satisfactory results. Work is continuing on studies or cockpit cooling of pilots employing airflow suits. Human limits of tolerance for hot cockpits have been defined after adequate studies. Much has been learned on air safety monotoring following atomic bomb explosion and new fields of endeavor defined as a resultant. Finally, many studies of the psychological aspects of aircraft accidents have been made todefine accident proneness and some interesting data brought to light."

It would be intersting to see how it relates to what we know of the history of supersonic testing or irradiation experiments. Another intriguing document is a document sent to BENSON by the deputy chief of the Air Staff. It was written on 20 May 1947 and titled "Specail Procedures". It states:
>"The Army Air Forces Tactical and Technical Committee has requested the service of a 'Research Air Surgeon' representing Headquarters, Army Air Forces, for ninety (90) days TDY at Kirtland Field incident to the work of this project. It is suggested that the officer selected have some background of Radio-Biology."
 
BENSON's texts, if authentic, are important, because they seem to link different kinds of tests: high speed, high altitude and irradiation. Usually, they were quite distinct. But the documents seem to imply that they were conducted more or less simultaneously (REDFERN quotes a NEPA file on p.205, but it is more ambiguous). The 22 September 1947 text states that there was a crash of an "S-aircraft" on 4 July 1947. This is crucial, because other official sources say that nothing such happened. Notably, the Weaver Report as well as the GAO Report of 1994 explicitly denied that any accident of military aircraft took place on this date. There remain a number of witnesses who remember that something crashed in New Mexico at the time of Colonel's BLANCHARD announcement. Memories, after 50 years, are unreliable. So we can't be sure about the exact dates. But maybe they were not wrong after all.
 
Another critic adressed to REDFERN's book is that there is no proof that any Chinese or Japanese prisonner was involved in tests on US territory. But that doesn't equate with the impossibility of the use of disabled people. The suggestion by GiulioNapolitano in the other topic, that some handiccaped people were removed from US institutions is quite possible. And something quite similar did happen. P.204 of Body Snatchers in the Desert, is reproduced an extract from an article, which states that experiments (relating to radioactive iodine injection) were conducted on tens of disabled children mid-47. Some mentally retarded, some hypo- or hyperthyroidians, and some deformed (by dwarfism, progeria or gargoylism). If it happened one time, it may have happened more than once. There is a plausible historical context for stories of bodies, more or less deformed (that doesn't inevitably imply that they were put in an experimental aircraft). And the reliable (or at least seemingly reliable) witnesses all state that they saw human bodies.
This is a way to adress the problem of the existence of the Roswell legend as soon as 1949, with all its present features. Of course, it was known under another name, people called it the Aztec story (and quite similar claims surfaced simultaneously). But it was already the same tale, located in the same region. We don't have to inevitably accept REDFERN's conclusion that the Aztec case was spread as a cover to actual events (although there were some hints). But the usual cover stories, weather or Mogul balloons, can't explain the emergence of these legends.
 
Why do you believe that the Project Mogul explanation is inadequate?
 
I think we all agree that the military at the Roswell base tried to hide the recovery of something. And they were quite ruthless: BRAZEL was detained, and he changed his version. But it is doubtful that the military went to such lenghts to hide the retrieval of a Mogul balloon. The Gildas BOURDAIS' and Wikipedia articles summarize the concerns about this hypothesis. Mogul balloons were not looked after. Project Mogul was classified as Top Secret, but some say it was the data that were classified, not the components. Charles B. MOORE confirmed it in a letter he wrote to to Gildas BORDAIS on 12 August 1995. Other problems:
-The archives from Project Mogul are complete it seems, but they state that Flight n°4 (the only possible culprit according to the Weaver Report) was not retrieved. Its very existence is uncertain. Charles MOORE is unsure that it took place. And geophysicist Albert CRACY, in charge of the operations, noted in his diary that it was cancelled.
-We know of other recoveries of Mogul balloons (or supposed ones). They were very far to cause so much turmoil amidst the military. There is the example at Alamagordo on 8 July, given by Wikipedia. REDFERN cites the Danforth case, on 23 September 1947. A balloon, strongly suspected to be a Mogul, was sent to Wright Patterson without much precaution.
-We can't understand why some people felt obliged by their secrecy oath for so many years after the project was declassified.

I agree that Project Mogul accounts for the so-called "hieroglyphs". Papers from July 1947 talked unequivocally of a flowered tape. And the remains were without discussion from a balloon. The descriptions spoke very clearly of the kinds of materials used at the time. They wer certainly not so mundane in the eyes of a peasant like BRAZEL. As time passed, they gained more incredible properties in the memories of the witnesses. But as Flight n°4 was probably cancelled, it was more probably a balloon from Project Mogul than a Mogul balloon. The two are not synonymous. See the BOURDAIS' article for an example of the small balloon clusters the NYU engineers working for Project Mogul used to launch. Their parts were tied with the same flowered tape, and they were used to gather weather data. So what BRAZEL found at first, was maybe a weather balloon after all...

But the biggest problem is that there is a world between the core story of the Aztec/Roswell legend, with its "solid" saucers, dwarf pilots and high veil of secrecy, and the recovery of a balloon, classified or not. And many testimonies are too divergent. For example, we can't shoehorn Chester BARTON's one in the Mogul hypothesis. So at the minimum, the legend comes from the merging of different happenings. There was indeed a true hunt for a crashed UFO (seen as an alien ship or probe) in February 49, some witnesses confused it with the July 47 events. We don't know exactly how many other events are involved.
 
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