NIDS (National Institute for Discovery Science)


Gone But Not Forgotten
Aug 18, 2002
The NIDS keeps coming up here:



and came up again in Iam Simmons talk at UnCon:

Black triangle report:

but what is really going on?

Are they really a well-funded and well-connected organisation that can get us closer to the 'truth' of what is going on "out there" or are they some kind of front for a government organisation so they can investigate strange occurenes at arms length and the suppress the findings?

They certainly seem to have an awful lot of ex-CIA types at their call as well as being able to employ the people who provide security at Area 51 to provide survellance at Skinwalker Ranch. They have no largely folded up shop meaning any reports they might have been working on are unlikely ever to see the light of day.

Their web site:

An article about their end suggesting everything is above board (and they were just a bit crap):

Interesting article:

Article about how they became the sole recipeits of black triangle sightings from the FAA:

Interesting article from 1996 about its start:

Thoughts? Ideas?
Could be something like the ' ponds institute'
Umm. will anyone get this reference?
Looks like a bunch of half assed know-it-alls who are winging it;

it is easy to look up all sorts of bizarre science on the internet nowadays, I do it all the time.
Doesn't make me an expert; neither are they.
Eburacum45 said:
Looks like a bunch of half assed know-it-alls who are winging it;
Really? Imagine my surprise!

I've made my entire reputation on the net by being a half-arsed know-it-all who wings it.
anome said:
Really? Imagine my surprise!

I've made my entire reputation on the net by being a half-arsed know-it-all who wings it.

me three, except i'm full-arsed!:)
Found this interesting - from Fate:

Where the Steers and the Aliens Play

by Sean Casteel
FATE Magazine
Reprinted by permission

The story of multimillionaire Robert Bigelow is surrounded by the kind of mystery, intrigue, and conspiracy charges that typically fuel the UFO community's rumor mill. Some observers call him a generous benefactor who has nothing to hide. Others label him a manipulative puppetmaster who uses his money as a weapon and hordes the paranormal research data he once promised to make public.

Very little is known about Bigelow: Even the source of his fortune remains a mystery. Some say he is of the Bigelow Tea family, while others claim he made his money in Las Vegas real estate. Another rumor has it that the death of his son several years ago brought about his passionate interest in the paranormal, the mystery of survival after death, and UFO phenomena.

There are also foreboding rumors that when crossed, Bigelow responds through emissaries who threaten violence -- or worse. Accusations of bribery are commonly tossed around. Even more common are the whispers that Bigelow's public posture of secrecy points to covert connections to the CIA or other government agencies. Bigelow's determined silence in the press only further fuels the speculation.

But once in a while even Bigelow makes a move that unavoidably brings him into the public eye. Bigelow's purchase of a ranch in isolated eastern Utah perfectly illustrates how he operates: moving in with large sums of money and quickly covering his trail to keep it hidden from prying eyes.

The tale begins with Terry and Gwen Sherman, the ranchers who in 1995 purchased a large tract of Utah land -- and got much more than they bargained for.

Home on the Range

The family found their new ranch unusual from day one, according to UFO researcher Christopher O'Brien, who was one of the first to arrive on the Sherman case. "The house had sat empty for seven years. Any house that sits empty for even a month or two in this area is completely cannibalized to the ground. This place -- no one would touch it," says O'Brien.

The house looked like it had been vacated hastily the day before, and all the doors in the house had deadbolt locks. A central corridor could be locked on both ends, and a closet in that hallway could be locked from the inside. "It was very spooky -- like a Stephen King novel or something," says O'Brien.

The strangeness didn't end there. In July 1996, the Shermans made news by going public with claims of seeing several types of UFOs on their land. According to Zack Van Eyck, a reporter for Salt Lake City's The Deseret News, the Shermans reported having three cows mutilated and several others missing, and finding strange impressions in the soil and circles of flattened grass. They saw lights emerge from "doorways" that seemed to appear in the air. One night, as Gwen Sherman was driving home, she was chased by strange red lights. On another occasion, Terry Sherman and his son waved to a black craft, reportedly the size of a football field, and then felt they had received some kind of response from it. Terry, viewing the craft through a scope from about 400 yards away, supposedly saw a tall, dark figure get out.

Enter Robert Bigelow, who flew to Utah soon after the reports and offered to buy the ranch for about $200,000. The Shermans accepted the offer and bought a smaller ranch about 15 miles away, where they hoped to escape the upsetting events that plagued them for more than a year.

Zack Van Eyck tells FATE about the Shermans' dire need to unload the ranch. "Bigelow's been a savior to them because he got them off the ranch," he says. "I really am impressed with the Shermans. They had chances to sell the ranch; Terry told me that a guy from Colorado wanted to buy it. Terry just didn't feel comfortable, because he was afraid that this guy and his family would go in and have the same experiences. So Terry, not wanting to put any other family in that position, really had no choice but to sell to someone like Bigelow."

An article in Spirit magazine by David Perkins described the Shermans' experience on their last day at the ranch. The night before, they had locked all the doors and gone to bed. "The next morning they awoke to find their bedding covered in blood," Perkins wrote. "They [each] had a one-eighth-inch deep 'scoop mark' in the same place on their right thumbs. The ranch from hell had managed to nick them one last time."

Once he acquired the ranch, Bigelow reportedly hired a pair of scientists and a veterinarian to take up residence there. They would conduct research under the umbrella of the National Institute of Discovery Science (NIDS), a private research organization formed by Bigelow in October 1996.

Beyond these facts, little else is known. Bigelow maintains a strict silence with the media, and his handpicked assistant and spokesman John Alexander has granted the press no details into the nature of the research. Terry Sherman, now employed by Bigelow to maintain the ranch, told The Deseret News he could no longer comment on his experiences because of a non-disclosure agreement he had to sign.

So here lies the core of the Sherman ranch mystery: What is Bigelow hiding behind his tidy legal agreement that he doesn't want to make known to the UFO community and the public? Is that secrecy imposed, as some have suggested, because of covert connections to the military or government? Or are Bigelow's motives much more personal?

Secrecy and Denial

The answers may lie with John Alexander -- usually the only other person mentioned by name in accounts of Bigelow and his operations. Alexander once worked for the Department of Defense as head of Non-Lethal Weapons Research and is now NIDS's Director of Scientific Liaison. "He called me out of the blue one day," Alexander recalls. "I've never actually asked him how he got my name. He had heard of me from somebody."

But when asked whether Bigelow deserves his growing reputation as a secretive financier of paranormal research, Alexander stonewalls.

"I don't know," he says. "Have you stopped beating your wife? I mean, what kind of question is that?"

Asked about the non-disclosure agreement with the Shermans, he replies, after a long silence, "I'm trying to figure out where you're going with all this, or why or what we choose to answer." Alexander is also tight-lipped on the subject of whether any of the better known paranormal investigators are working at the Bigelow Ranch. "We do not address externally with whom we're functioning right now," he says. "I think that's consistent with most private research organizations."

Is it possible that Alexander's evasiveness is merely a symptom of "nothing new to report?" Rumor has it that when the Shermans moved out of the ranch, so did the paranormal phenomena. It's a rumor that Alexander declines to confirm. "I don't believe that's accurate," he says, and adds, "There's never been a goodly number of [mutilated cattle] cases. It has been a sporadic phenomenon for decades. To the best of my knowledge, the phenomenon's never been consistent or in big numbers -- with a couple of rare exceptions.

"Our web site pretty well gives the stated position: that we're interested in a couple of specific areas where we want to have some hard results. I think one of the problems in the field is that many people have said more than they know. But we haven't gotten any results that I know of that we'd be choosing to release."

(The NIDS web site is located at The section called "Research News," where new information would likely be posted, has been "Under Construction" for all of 1998 thus far.)

When asked if a photo of Bigelow is available for the press, Alexander replies, "No. And I don't know if he has any. I mean, he must have some at home or something. But he does not have any that are given out."

In a quietly amused tone, Alexander talks about a recent error made by a tabloid television show that he could not recall the name of. "Some television program had him identified and ran a picture of him. It wasn't him," he says.

Abduction researcher and occasional Bigelow associate David Jacobs doesn't have a Bigelow photo either. When asked, he seems to realize for the first time that no photo exists. "I don't have any pictures of Bob," he says. "Oddly enough, I actually don't."

Researcher Christopher O'Brien shares the following anecdote about Bigelow's apparent camera-shyness: "Bigelow gave a sizable amount of money for a new wing for some life studies center at the University of Nevada in Las Vegas, and Strange Universe hired a photographer to go to the opening and get a picture of him. I guess Bigelow bought him off. This guy told Strange Universe, "Hey, he offered me more money."

But aside from these kinds of tactics of avoiding (or bribing) paparazzi, O'Brien says he supports Bigelow's basic game plan.

"I applaud the whole idea Bigelow's come up with, putting together a crack team of scientists who are trying to locate specific areas where specific-type activity is occurring," O'Brien says. "The problem I do have is his hoarding the data and not making any of the findings public. He's leaking just enough to keep people off his case. But the full findings should be a matter of public record. I think most people you talk to who know anything about NIDS or Bigelow will agree that that's the main sticking point that people have in dealing with him and whatever agenda he is exercising."

Reporter Van Eyck has his own misgivings in regard to the hesitancy to release data being evinced by Bigelow and NIDS.

"If there isn't some type of military or government connection," he asks, "then why is Robert Bigelow so hesitant to release any information? I mean, he and John Alexander say that they just want to do these studies independently and without any interference so that the data won't be skewed. I understand all that.

"If it's not some kind of covert operation, then the guy in charge of it just happens to be very secretive about himself," Van Eyck adds. "But I would hope that someone who has the money and the interest would do the research and then put it out as quickly as possible, and say, 'Look, here's what we've been doing. Here's what we've seen.' It's too bad that's not what's happening. I think that's what's disappointing to all of us who came across this before Bigelow bought it up. We were hoping that this information would not be privatized."

The Good Philanthropist

There are other voices who speak in Bigelow's defense. In the late 1980s and early 1990s, Bigelow was a regular fixture at numerous UFO conferences around the country. While attending these gatherings, he made the acquaintance of several of the better-known experts, including abduction researcher and author Dr. David Jacobs and animal-mutilation expert and filmmaker Linda Moulton Howe. Both Jacobs and Howe say there is nothing particularly mysterious about him.

"He's always been completely open with me," Jacobs says. "He was enormously helpful to everyone, and he did it without wanting anything in return. I have nothing but good things to say about him."

Bigelow sponsored a 1992 Roper Poll designed to elicit from respondents whether they had experienced any of a number of phenomena connected with the abduction experience. Jacobs, fellow researcher Budd Hopkins, and Harvard psychiatrist Dr. John Mack worked on the project, which they termed a success. Bigelow also footed the bill for those researchers' workshops on the psychological impact of abduction, which were given to mental health professionals around the country free of charge.

"Robert Bigelow is a businessman," Jacobs says, "and he's interested in the subject. He's funded all sorts of projects and he's one of the few who has. We owe him an enormous debt of gratitude for that."

For Linda Howe, Bigelow was willing to cover the costs of having mutilated animals examined by veterinarians. "We were able to make contact with veterinarians and veterinary pathologists that we could pay for tests. We had not been able to do that before," she says. "That was the extent of my work with him."

So from two widely respected researchers who received direct monetary help from Bigelow, there is almost no sense that Bigelow is anything but a generous benefactor who operates very much in the open.

"I wish I could tell you all sorts of dirt and mysterious things and nefarious dealings, Jacobs says, laughing, "but I can't. You're dealing with the world of conspiracies and the soft underbelly of flying-saucer land. Everybody believes that deep, dark conspiracies exist everywhere. And here's a 'shadowy figure,' you know, Bob Bigelow. But it ain't like that."

Without being able to talk to Robert Bigelow himself, we can only offer the testimonies of those who know him and those who know of him. Like so many of the mysteries surrounding the UFO phenomenon, Bigelow continues to be shrouded in a self-imposed veil of secrecy, a veil unlikely to be lifted any time soon. Meanwhile, Bigelow and his NIDS staff members are presumably waiting for the activity to start up again. And surely they will be ready.

"Listen," Jacobs adds, "you've got to be fair to Bob. Bob has dispensed funding when no one else in the country has. And he's asked very, very little in return. He's never cost anybody a penny. He never wants money for anything. Never. And boy, is that ever different!"
yes, that was a great read!

to bad (as above article states) the NIDS web site has been dead since 1998 " no new info" and I didn't know the Shermans went through that whole spooky deal on their last night on the ranch scoop marks on each of the family!! wow! ..and that they are not allowed to talk about what went on at the ranch now. Weird!! a story in a story in a story!!
Very interseting stuff. I was only thinking about this lot the other day wondering what had happened to them. Reading through their site (still online) I was gobsmacked to see Jaques Vallee as being listed as a member of NIDS. I then followed the link to his site only to find it makes no mention of his paranormal interests, merely his many academic achievements.

Does anybody know if he has retired from UFOlogy completely? I think out of all of the hundreds of books that I've read on the subject so far, his make the most compelling case against a straightforward ET hypothesis thus far.

The Middleman
I heard that he quit ufology and won't do interviews. George from coasttocoast was talking about him the other night.
TheMiddleman and tonyblair11 , Yes. I heard the C2C show also and George's guest said, Jaques Vallee "quit the UFO research because he started going around in circles, with no new data". George said that he has tried many times to get him on the show, but it won't happen. I'd really like to hear his take on Serpo, as well as John Kell. :D
Many thanks for the Valle info. Cue new conspiracy...... along the lines of... Vallee suddenly found something out and became 'enlightened'/'frightened' and therefore refuses to do interviews and quit. That's pretty much how these things go isn't it?:)

The Middleman
There are claims for NIDS invovlement with Col. John Alexander and the suggestion (in FT's own pages) that the security firm that is said to guard Area 51 also does the security for Skinwalker Ranch. As you can tell from thats entence the connctions are awfully tenuous although a lot of things do link back various aeropace firms in Nevada.

Bush Privatizes UFO Information To "NIDS"

Richard Boylan, Ph.D.

My comments in full on the news release below would be unprintable.
You may have read my recent article on NIDS. (Reprinted in the
"news release" below.) The fact that NIDS gets a foot in the door with the
Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) under the Bush-Cheney Administration is prima-facie evidence that "W" is a patsy, whether "witting" or unwittingly, of Cabal assets.

Bush has taken Republican "privatization" initiatives to new
heights (or depths) by trying to privatize" the UFO/Star Visitor contact
phenomenon! As if!!

Of course, he is only doing in a more public fashion what the
Cabal has been doing for five decades -- treating UFO/ET information,
captured ET vehicles and individuals, and technology as private corporate
property (sic).

It looks like George W. will take us from the UFO Cover-Up to UFO-
Privatization without ever going through the step of UFO Public
Disclosure. Thus goes participatory democracy under President Bush II.

- Richard Boylan, Ph.D.

(My thanks to Paola Harris for forwarding the news release below)

"NIDS Becomes Only Official Organization to Receive UFO Reports from the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA)"

NIDS is pleased to announce that the newly printed Federation Aviation
Administration (FAA) manuals indicate the National Institute for Discovery
Science (NIDS) as the sole contact point in the United States to which the
FAA reports UFOs.

The following four FAA Manuals contain the changes:
FAA Order 7110.65, Air Traffic Control
FAA Order 7210.3, Facility Operation and Administration
Aeronautical Information Manual (AIM)
Aeronautical Information Publication (AIP)

The FAA wording of the order mandating the changes is as follows:
In calendar year 1999, representatives from the National Institute for
Discovery Sciences (NIDS) contacted the FAA Administrator to offer their
research institution as the single point of contact recognized by the FAA
in regard to UFO information. On April 14, 2000, after being referred by
the FAA Administrator, NIDS representatives met with ATP-200 to finalize a course of action. This document change proposal is a result of that meeting and is official FAA recognition that NIDS is the single point of
contact for UFO research.

The official date for all FAA offices to receive the new manuals
is July 12, 2001, but NIDS has confirmed that many FAA offices have already
received the manuals.


A reply from Dr. Richard Boylan:

NIDS, the so-called "National Institute For Discovery Science", is
made to sound like some public-purpose academic organization. In actuality, it is the private holding of shadowy billionaire Robert Bigelow, a Las Vegas casinos operator, closely allied with rogue military-intelligence
psy/psi-warfare officers suspected of being part of the renegade UFO
Cover-Up organization a former NSC consultant dubbed "The Cabal".
Bigelow uses his billions to buy certain scientists who have worked in
classified Star Visitor technology projects. Then Bigelow gets these
scientists to work for him, ferreting out data about things like
extraterrestrial craft technology and dimensional portals.
Most of what his stable of scientists learn is kept private by Mr.
Bigelow. He orders a few crumbs of information to be thrown out to the
public from time to time to keep up the illusion that NIDS is a public-
service enterprise. Nothing could be farther from the truth.
The Cabal wants ET technology, and the wealth and power which come
from possessing it, all to themselves.

Richard Boylan, Ph.D.

Richard J. Boylan, Ph.D., CCHT, LLC
Post Office Box 22310, Sacramento, CA 95822, USA. (916) 422-7400
E-mail: [email protected] URL:

He has more on the Cabal and The Aviary here:

Some resources (including those) collected together here:

But as I said at the start no proof.
And possibly more commecrical explanations?

Non-Terrestrial Permutations and Impacts as Related to Access and Use of Terrestrial Resources

Robert Bigelow

January, 2000

In a round about way, I recently experienced a personal revelation. For the last several months I have been thinking of ways to enhance various business plans related to commercialization of space. These involve transportation systems and economically justifiable destinations.

Naturally, what you can do or produce on an orbiting system that creates special or unique value becomes very, very important for the business case. While reading and talking on this subject, I reinforced what I previously knew a little but not nearly enough; and, that was that many unique and often profoundly special reactions occur upon organic and non-organic substances in a microgravity environment that happen nowhere else. We all know of the usual cast of characters but, I'm talking about ones you normally don't read about.

As it turns out in processes affecting non-organic substances for example, it is possible to create materials, components and products that are totally in a class by themselves. Nowhere, terrestrially, can any of these items with their unique performance capabilities be made. I'm getting closer to my revelation. What is the implication here? Well, I believe that components for advanced spacecraft can be manufactured in a microgravity environment that cannot be duplicated on the surface of a planet.

And now here is my theory. I strongly believe that at least some UFOs owe their beginnings to being manufactured whole or in substantial part from materials made in a microgravity environment. Competitively, we might well be working with a periodic table containing much fewer elements compared to a species that has access to those same elements but has fully achieved manufacturing and experimentation in space on a significant scale.

I believe, so long as a species remains planet-bound in their manufacturing processes, they will not avail themselves of the resource necessary to make interstellar craft. They will only develop what terrestrial processes allow.

As for our UFO friends, we will not begin to match their early craft until we also begin to exploit space for manufacturing purposes.

Thank you.

Robert T. Bigelow ... h2000.html


My own private space station

Robert Bigelow has his funding priorities straight: Orbiting cruise ships and paranormal research.

- - - - - - - - - - - -
By Amy Standen

June 7, 2001 | If you're interested in the possibility of life after death; if you've had an encounter with aliens, or believe that UFOs occasionally conduct drive-by surveillance of unsuspecting earthlings; if you blame extraterrestrials for the rash of freakish cattle mutilations that a New Mexico rancher discovered in 1998, then you are probably familiar with Robert Bigelow.

Bigelow, who made his fortune running Budget Suites, may be the United States' largest funder of research into the paranormal. The owner of a chain of hotels in Nevada, Texas and Arizona, Bigelow bought a ranch in Utah where residents had reported unearthly lights and other strange occurrences and staffed it with a full-time veterinarian and two scientists to monitor any alienlike activity. He founded the National Institute for Discovery Science, which sponsors research into UFOs and other paranormal phenomena and collects accounts of sightings and other unexplained events from the public.

The University of Nevada at Las Vegas has also received much of his largess. Bigelow has donated millions of dollars for the construction of the Bigelow Physics Building as well as the UNLV Bigelow Chair of Consciousness Studies, which is dedicated to the "rational investigation of the mysteries of human awareness, including the possibility of the persistence of consciousness after death."

Now he's poised to spend a lot more. Bigelow Aerospace recently filed an application to open up space to commercial interests with the creation of a space station -- a privilege currently restricted to NASA and the Russian aerospace program -- and, eventually, "cruise ships" for tourists. Bigelow says he can build the first installment of his space station in two years, and reports that his aerospace engineers are already working on the modules of a research station for eventual use by private companies seeking to do research in microgravitational climes. But the major hurdle isn't building the station, it's getting permission from the Federal Aviation Administration to bring it into space, and NASA's assistance in launching it. Bigelow (who refuses to be photographed by or for the press, and does not do TV interviews) recently hired the Washington law firm Patton Boggs to help take his application through the FAA's approval process -- one that no one else has ever completed.

For Bigelow, the connection between the paranormal and the commercialization of space is less obvious than you might think. For an ardent believer in UFOs and a host of other phenomena most Americans expect to read about only in tabloids, Bigelow is realistic about what he might find in space. Building a space station is less about getting closer to aliens than it is about making the wonders of space available to all, or at least more Americans, and about a firm faith in the power of commercialization to bring change -- not to mention a deep grudge against one of Bigelow's least favorite government agencies, NASA.

You've written before about the need to commercialize space. What does that mean, and how does it compare to the prevailing attitude abut space, especially NASA's perspective?

It's quite insidious. NASA's version of commercialization is not privatization. Those are two very different words in NASA's mentality. NASA's view of commercialization is: "We, NASA, own everything. We own all the hardware. We own the facilities to move people back and forth, and when they get there, we own that facility too."

So in our scheme of commercializing things, we intend to be in business. They are a federal agency that's tax exempt and that gets $14 billion a year. And so they are paying no income taxes and here they are absolutely in business. They take 100 percent of the revenue of any company that pays them to do anything. And that's wrong; that's absolutely dead wrong. And it's a huge competitor to free enterprise.

Why do you think NASA has been reluctant to allow tourists in space, like Dennis Tito, for example?

Well, it's the mentality that "we own space." NASA stands for "No Access to Space for Americans" -- that's what it stands for to me and to most Americans. NASA has exclusive control and a lock on everything having to do with space, except for the Russian side. And they were just beyond belief in being rude and obnoxious [in response to Dennis Tito's trip]. It was just embarrassing to this country.

What does Bigelow Aerospace intend to do in space if its current bid is granted by the FAA?

Well, the ultimate fantasy for us is to have a cruise ship in orbit, maybe around the year 2015. A cruise ship implies that it is moving somewhere; it isn't just orbiting. A space station is a precursor to that. Space stations typically maintain a position -- it could be in LEO [low Earth orbit] or one of the five "Le Grange" points, which are states of equilibrium between the sun and the moon. It takes no energy to maintain that location.

Our focus is to create a breakthrough in the cost of habitual modules, then to configure these together into a space station. We want to work with other companies, to work with other countries, to work, if possible, with NASA -- although that's pretty doubtful. And so the idea is to create space stations in LEO with other people who perform research and development. The big thing, of course, and what's in it for human beings, is more than tourism -- it's the enormous technology promise that space holds and offers to the human race.

What is the advantage of doing science in space?

Over the last 20 years there have been a lot of experiments flown, both on [U.S.] shuttles and on Mir, and what has evolved is that very unique things happen to organic and nonorganic substances in that environment.

[Commercial research] has not exploded in a great rush to the new frontier because the costs have been prohibitive -- to get people back and forth or to get supplies back and forth -- and the laboratories in which these experiments are flown are so small that there's very little room to do anything. They're all on a very small scale; they are not in a production kind of mode. And that's part of the problem.

If the facilities were better, what kinds of work do you imagine taking place?

What has been shown so far is that there are substances produced in space that have been proven far superior to terrestrial substances. There's something called ZBLAN. It's a fiber-optic cable material and I believe Boeing and several other companies have patents on this. It can only be made in a microgravity environment and as such it achieves a significant level of purity that can't be obtained under gravity's influence. It's about 100 times more pure than the best fiber-optic cable that can be made terrestrially. That means it can carry 100 times the information.

Would there be room for space tourists as well?

The precursor to [an eventual] cruise ship or hotel is guesthouses. When you have these stations and you have, hopefully, pharmaceutical companies, material science companies of all different kinds, using a facility like this, they have to have somewhere to stay. And those people might not always be payload specialists. They might be people from the media or people from entertainment or Joe Blow down the street in some sort of unusual circumstance.

Will you be going to other companies to raise money for the space station?

We have sufficient monies to pursue research and development on building very safe, habitable modules. And our systems are more safe than the aluminum cans that are up there. We're using inflatable technologies. We also expect at least an order of magnitude or more of reduction in per-cubic-footage cost of the module. We are looking for an enormous shift in the cost of things. This means that large corporations can own their own stations and small corporations can own a piece of stations. Countries could own stations as well; they wouldn't have to be wealthy countries.

When do you think this could be done?

For the cruise ship, that idea is around 2015. What's more important to us, and hopefully will work for everybody, is that we will be ready to deploy a life-size module, which by itself is a small station. A life-size module is a little over two-and-a-half times the volume of just one module on the ISS [International Space Station] today. So by itself it's pretty large. We're going to be ready to launch a module in 24 months. We will have one or more of these modules built and ready to go.

Will you have a way to launch it?

Not necessarily. And probably the biggest deterrent to that is going to be our own government.

Has it been difficult to convince the FAA to let you go forward with your plans?

The FAA and the AST [associate administrator for commercial space transportation] are cooperating with us so far. NASA is going to be our biggest headache -- NASA does not want any competition. And there are a lot of congressmen and senators that are in the pocket of NASA.

You're one of the country's biggest funders of research into the paranormal. Where did that interest come from?

In the UFO category, it was spawned when I was probably around 8 or 9. I began to hear the stories about members of my family that had had a couple of very good sightings, and one was a close encounter.

They didn't see actually living creatures. What they saw was an object that they thought was an airplane on fire at first. They stopped their car; it was nighttime and the object was coming right for them. And it grew bigger and bigger in a very short time, a matter of maybe seconds, until it filled up the windshield. Then they realized it wasn't an airplane on fire; they didn't know what it was. Their car was stopped on the side of the road in a remote location at night and they thought they were dead -- until, at the last second before impact, it made a right-angle turn and zipped out of sight.

And I remember how shook up they were. Even in telling me years later, they had a very serious look on their face. They thought their lives were over. But our own scientists have seen things during their employment -- sightings at key locations.

Have you ever had a sighting?

No, I haven't.

Are you waiting?

No, I'm not waiting. The institute that I formed and that I fund (the National Institute for Discovery Science) has been in existence for about six years. We do a lot of fieldwork, and there are members of our staff and there are scientists that have witnessed bizarre aerial phenomena in remote locations.

Do you subscribe to any of the conspiracy theories about NASA covering up the existence of paranormal activity?

No, I don't, and it isn't so neat as that. NASA is not that sophisticated, they're not that organized, they're not that focused. NASA is an organization without a vision, and because they don't have any vision, they don't have missions that make much sense.

Is this a spiritual enterprise for you?

No. But that's an oxymoron as far as Washington, D.C., and politics are concerned. You don't get into spirituality or those kinds of feelings. But the astronauts have: They've all had some sort of epiphany, whether they've gone to the moon or orbited. To them, that kind of experience is almost life changing. So to get yourself out of the governmental gutter and into the positive light of space, that's not going to happen because of some agency. That's going to happen because people do it together. The only way meaningful change has ever occurred is that private enterprise has been there to do it.

So do you think that all Americans have a right to the kind of life-changing experience that is often had in space?

It's not whether you have a right to enhance your spirit or your soul in some way (and maybe you would or would not have an epiphany; that's an individual reaction), but you do have a right as an American citizen not to be handcuffed as to what's potential for you, for your children, for your grandchildren, and not to be suffocated by some federal agency's greed. And NASA is a very greedy organization. They have 18,000 people and could do just as well by half.

Do you see this work on the space station as bringing you closer to getting answers to some of the questions you have about UFOs?

No, because the physics of the paranormal is so far beyond our understanding. The topic of UFOs or other paranormal subject matter is way beyond today's science, way beyond tomorrow's space stations. Tomorrow's space stations just give us a leg up on being able to have a very exotic array of medicines and materials and so forth to enhance our lives over the next century. We can't compare ourselves to beings that have probably been in existence millions or billions of years longer than we have been. We theoretically could have a presence and we wouldn't even know it. ... .html?pn=2
And back into odder territory:

Defense Intelligence Agency Explores Weird Science

Of course, it is likely that some of the information we received is provided as cover for a larger set of activities. Our source for this particular tidbit of information remains unnamed at his request, is a former officer with CIA/OSI Life Sciences Division. He is presently a member on a DIA sponsored committee tasked with monitoring developments in future technologies that might pose a surprise threat to the national security.

NIDS, Intelligence, Disclosure

In the 1990's, Bob Bigelow created the National Institute of Discovery Science (NIDS) to explore reports of paranormal activity. Recently there has been a lot of discussion of the bizarre paranormal activity at Bigelow's Utah based "Skinwalker Ranch." Strange creatures, strange objects, floating black triangles, animal mutilations, disintegrated dogs, telepathic messages - a smorgasbord of every strange and imaginable terror has been served to those unfortunates that spent any period of time at the ranch. For readers curious about this strange 'threat' from spacetime and beyond, I suggest tracking down the book "Hunt for the Skinwalker" by former NIDS staff scientist Colm A. Kelleher, and veteran UFO reporter George Knapp. A Starstream contact who teaches at the University of Utah, Salt Lake City, and is not prone to flights of fantasy, actually observed a floating black triangle above the mountains. Something is out there, but we aren't quite sure what to make of all of this yet.

Our high level source confirmed that NIDS data has been discussed by members of an elite DIA committee, at least informally. Life sciences are probably more concerned these days with the avian flu, but never underestimate the appetite for weird and wild science, even at an official level. A list of names of committee members involved in this particular wild 'tiger tale' apparently was intercepted by the NSA, or so we are told.

On a private level, the NIDS investigation of the Skinwalker phenomena was flawed as a result of budget constraints. One of the lead investigators, a physicist who has recently worked under government contract, lamented the lack of available detection equipment. Some of the 'creatures' on the ranch could only be seen using ITT night vision binoculars. The lack of a color thermal imager meant there was no means of determining if the shadowy beings emitted heat. This particular 'entity' was completely invisible to the unaided eye.

Might be worth reading through the whole lot for the full effect:

Which came to attention via this PRWeb "press release" (they crop up here from time to time as anyone can pay them to release a press release):

Avian Virus Invades Washington, D.C.

In the real-life world of psychic spies, paranormal goat killers, and Skinwalkers haunting remote regions of Utah, all roads lead to Ron, a high ranking former CIA analyst, and the "core story" of a shadowy group of government insiders popularly known as "The Aviary."

(PRWEB) February 25, 2006 -- An on-going investigation series examines the real life "core story" of alien contact, shared by a group of intelligence and military government insiders, and the man that best selling author Jon Ronson inquired about in his book, "The Men Who Stare at Goats."

In 1995, the CIA took control of a series of secret government programs from the Defense Intelligence Agency, known collectively as STAR GATE.

Project STAR GATE involved both scientific research and operational intelligence using paranormal phenomena. Although STAR GATE officially ended following CIA declassification of many of the original programs, and despite the release of more than 80,000 pages of previously classified documents, rumors persist that paranormal phenomena are of extreme interest in Washington. Thousands of pages of the original program remain classified to this day.

According to British author and filmmaker Jon Ronson, following the 9/11 attacks, psychic Uri Geller confided that he had been reactivated into the ranks of intelligence agency psychic spies. Ronson claims that Uri told him that the name of the man who reactivated his mental powers for intelligence was called Ron.

More is known about Ron than many of his associates thanks to his brief appearance in the New York Times a few years ago. A MITRE document confirms that Ron is involved with the development of a new kind of radar that uses personal computers. The new radar is a passive system intended to detect unwanted intrusions of stealthy unidentified flying objects.

Ron developed the reputation of being the chief phenomenologist at the CIA: something about a file filled with strangeness called the "weird desk." It is alleged that Ron inherited this assignment from a certain retired CIA officer, who continues as government consultant in the critical area of reviewing advanced technologies with possible military applications. This gentleman holds the distinction of appearing in a photograph in the March, 2006 issue of "Reader's Digest."

A Tale of Avian Dreams

Inside the alleged "weird desk" is the "core story" about visitors not of our world. The extraterrestrial tale has spread with some help from a group of present and former intelligence agents and military types in a loose network popularly known as "The Aviary." Another source with close ties to the alleged members of the Aviary group revealed that the same core story of alien contact had been confirmed by the former Director of Central Intelligence, Richard Helms, just prior to his death in 2002. Recently Starstream Research learned that disclosure of an interest in all things alien by members of the DIA sponsored TIGER committee may have provoked a split between some of the key players. TIGER is the "standing committee on Technology Insight-Gauge Evaluate Review."

In 1993 the DIA STAR GATE project initiated a pilot study into the feasibility of using telepathy for command, control and communication for soldiers behind enemy lines, in situations where normal communication wasn't possible. If the government is serious about developing mind to mind com links, then they must also be considering the threat of foreign developments. This is known as C^4: Command, Control, Communication, Computers. Telepathy merely takes this to the next level. It provides a command and control signal line for communication. The computer is the biological material inside the human brain. Wiggle this brain here, and that one over there responds. Wiggle hard enough, and perhaps you have created a remote control system.

Combine the ideas behind passive radar with telepathy, and you have a unique C^4 system capable of distinguishing the flow of unconscious information around the planet. The Aviary is concerned not so much with the hardware of an alien civilization, but with a deeper and more sinister dilemma. Take command and control of the flow of the collective unconscious mind, and you have taken control of the human race. A meme is an idea that spreads like a virus: an idea that replicates, evolves and infects like the common cold, moving from host to host. The Aviary's "core story" has revealed a virus of unearthly intent set upon the leadership of our planet.

The primary conceptual basis for the Space Time Threat Assessment Reports comes from the reports of anomalous information appearing within human perception.
Copies of some of original CIA released STAR GATE documents, including "Project 911" and predictions of terror attacks using airplanes can been seen at the Starstream Research website:

Copyright (c) 2006 Starstream Research. All rights reserved.

Coooooooooo and not one piece of evidence!!!
Very very interesting!! Man thats some deep stuff. I hate people that don't share!! I read the article you quoted (I still have to go read all the links) it boggles the mind! I bet they have so much cool info on that Utah skin ranch it would fill volumes!! Somebody needs to at least make a movie out of this NIDS! Remember that movie "endangered species" starring Robert Urich
that's what I'm talking about! Ok, I'll go read .. :gaga:
ruff: Thought you might like it but remember: one crazy UFO conspiracy at a time ;)

TheMiddleman said:
Many thanks for the Valle info. Cue new conspiracy...... along the lines of... Vallee suddenly found something out and became 'enlightened'/'frightened' and therefore refuses to do interviews and quit. That's pretty much how these things go isn't it?:)

The Middleman

See now according to one of those links above Vallee is a member of The Aviary:

- (Bird name unknown, [PARTRIDGE?]): Jacques Vallee, Ph.D., formerly an astrophysicist with GEPAN, the French Goverrnment's UFO investigative agency, later moved to U.S. as principal investigator with Defense Department computer network projects; worked with famed astronomer Dr. J. Allen Hynek who left and denounced the military's Project Blue Book as a disinformational smokescreen; prolific author on UFO subject, lately turning to metaphysical explanations for the phenomenon.
Mighty_Emperor??? did you do something different to your above post? Its different from when I saw it b4 I posted....I'm going crazy maybe ! Thats it! ...never mind... :gaga:
Oh !! I see what happen hehehe he posted another whole bunch of stuff and we're on another page!! I get to excited over this kind of stuff!! sorry! Ok, I will calmly read the post and links in the correct order (its quite a lot you know!) Thanks! ruff
ruffready said:
Mighty_Emperor??? did you do something different to your above post? Its different from when I saw it b4 I posted....I'm going crazy maybe ! Thats it! ...never mind... :gaga:

Could be some alien mind control beams??

As a precautionary measure I have donned my tin foil hat and am feeling much better already!!!
I got to tell you. It can't (or should not) get any weirder! It sort of makes your head feel all swolen after reading a bunch of that stuff straight through ...the "avairy" is mind boggling stuff . Bob Bigilow is one mystery all in itself . I don't know how folks like Dolan can get into this subject so deep , without going nuts!! As Jed Clampett says weee doggies!!
(Bird name unknown, [PARTRIDGE?]): Jacques Vallee, Ph.D.,

Alan Partridge in the Aviary.... the mind boggles. Now that's paranormal.

Imagine if the first thing ET would be greeted with was 'AHA!'

On a more serious note - NIDS...... I'm going to make it my mission to look into this lot. I suspect something rather large is transpiring... and it AIN'T mentioned on their website.
TheMiddleman, here's one place to start (as a matter of fact I had typed in "Bigelow" earlier today, but got side track and never got on with it. I had planned to do the same as you a few days ago, since he came up in regards with a possible "alien exchange program in 1997, per serpo thread here. I'm about worn out chasing that down. :err:

go here
There is some discussion here that is utterly unsubstantinated and probbal sheds zero light on the affair but it's all good fun - disinfo galore, CIA/Mafia, the Philadelphia Experiment (via Bennewitz), MJ12, more Aviary stuff, remote viewing (which gets a solid mention in the Skinwalker Ranch book), anti-gravity research, etc., etc. ... 55b34180f/
The Aviary, the Aquarium, and Eschatology

by Vince Johnson

Good start but it gets "better":

The Aviary functions best by amplifying
people's own misconceptions about the paranormal. It does this by
helping to over inflate individual pieces of the puzzle so that
particular investigators get pushed further into their own blind
alleys. People are encouraged to be so distracted by the trees that
they fail to see the forest. This cacophony by people looking for
truth in all the strangest places provides an excellent cover for the
deadly serious business of clearing the decks and battening down the
hatches for the eschaton event. It is like a Manhattan Project going
on behind the scenes of alien grays and praying mantises having sex
with humans.

Oooooo that sounds horrid.

Since Smith had alluded to his close contacts with the Aviary, most of my questions centered around this mysterious group of alleged UFO
insiders comprised of scientists, military personnel, and intelligence
analysts. Dan's primary contact with this group is "Pelican" who
reportedly mans the "Weird Desk" (UFOs,etc) at CIA. While Pelican's
main job with the CIA's Directorate of Science and Technology is to
monitor foreign technological developments, Pelican also tracks
millennial/eschatological communities, "entering a twilight zone where
psychic techniques are being generated by humans and other entities,"
says Smith.

I'd like a go running the "Weird Desk" - mine is pretty weird.

Initially, the factor that seemed most important was that Pelican was
being so forthcoming -- presumably with the knowledge and consent of
his superiors at CIA. This in itself forced me to conclude that there
are two possible motives for all this apparent glasnost:

1. There is indeed an eschatological emergency as described by Dan
Smith, i.e. fulfillment of biblical prophesy with attendant
catastrophes; and/or

2. There is a new twist to the ol' UFO debunking game, capitalizing on
new-age mysticism and millennial "apocophilia."

I am storing "apocophilia" away for future use.

Many suspect that John Alexander is the "colonel" referred to in
Howard Blum's recent book, "Out There". In this book, Blum described a
group of remote viewers in the Pentagon who frequently encountered
UFOs in their psychic "sorties" to locate Soviet submarines. Alexander
seems to have an extremely eclectic background -- he received a PhD.
in Thanatology (the study of death and near-death experiences) from
Georgetown University under the tutelage of the celebrated Dr.
Elisabeth Kubler-Ross. Apparently, Alexander is a "mind-control"
junkie, having studied everything from Silva Mind Control, to a stint
in a Buddhist monastery.

When the National Research Council issued its findings that there was
no evidence of paranormal phenomena, Alexander wrote a critique of the
report that was both passionate and eloquent. In this rebuttal, he
compared the report's apparent a priori conclusions to the Condon
Commission's report on UFOs. Interestingly, Alexander is widely
believed to have been instrumental in the Army's UFO Intelligence
activities, and is rumored to have assisted in the investigation of
the Cash/Landrum UFO-injury case.

Alexander, of course, has strong NIDS connections.

But Smith sincerely believes that such technologies are being
developed, specifically under the guise of "non-lethal" weapons
research, such as that headed by John Alexander. Smith says,
point-blank, that this technology is nothing less than "black magic."

Now we are talking!!

There's absolutely no telling what Cold War ethics combined with
unlimited budgets and zero accountability could have wrought in terms
of Frankensteinian scenarios. To elucidate this point, I present this
extract from a paper by Ray Boeche, a Lincoln, Nebraska, theologian
and Fortean researcher.

Fortean? Super:

The following is an edited version of material given to me in late
1991 - early 1992, by two scientists who claim to be working in
weapons research and development for the Department of Defense.


Divulging this information was the result of a moral dilemma, when
these two individuals, both Christians, became alarmed at the course
their research efforts into psychotronic weapons was taking under the
direction of their (unnamed) superiors. They described an obsessive
effort to contact and attempt to control what they referred to as
"non-human intelligences" (NHI), and to harness these NHI for military
and intelligence uses.

The efforts had progressed well past attempts at practical
applications of David Bohm's theories, and had grown to encompass the
use of, according to their statements, "satanic rituals / ritual magic
along the lines of that espoused by Aleister Crowley, including human

These gentlemen stated their concerns that, even when they were
apparently able to harness or channel these forces or abilities for
"good" uses, the force would "turn," and ultimately all of those
subjects involved suffered varying degrees of negative effects from
contact with these forces. They are convinced that what is being
tapped into in all instances is evil, and that this research should

By jingo!

Bentwaters experiment was the projection of an actual, physical three-dimensional object, which could and did interact with its environment, but was create and controlled by individuals involved in this

A tulpa?

The story related by Ray Boeche is supported by Dan Smith's thesis,
i.e. humans are messing with forces that are getting out of control,
perhaps with disastrous consequences. According to Smith, these
"sorcerer's apprentices" are going at it hot and heavy at government
psychotronics labs in or near Los Alamos, New Mexico.

It has been rumored that there have already been several high-level
meetings between those who are concerned about secret psi/UFO programs
and representatives of the Clinton administration. According to one
rumor, Pelican met with Jack Gibbons, the White House Science Advisor.
Gibbons is reported to have responded that "the President shouldn't
touch this topic with a 10-foot pole." Instead, meetings concerning
these "black" psi/UFO projects have been channeled through the
Vice-President's office under the cover story of "alternate energy
sources." There have also been meetings with Senate Intelligence
Committee Chief of Staff, Dick DiAmato, who is said to be interested
in the ongoing strangeness at Area 51.

Variations on this rumor have John Alexander as the contact with the
Clinton administration. This makes a certain amount of sense, in that
Alexander knows Al Gore from his days as a Senator, when he taught
several Congressmen, including Gore, some basic Neuro-Linguistic
Programming techniques.

I knew Al Gore would sneak in - he'll eventually claim he invented it all ;)

And straight from the Pelican's beak:

Next, I asked about the Aviary. According to Pelican, the Aviary is
nothing more than the product of the somewhat-deranged mind of
"Falcon," retired Air Force Captain Robert Collins, who worked in
Foreign Technology Assessment in regards to missile technology -- not
AFOSI as is widely believed. Pelican said that Collins was discharged
from the Air Force after breaching the security perimeter at the
Manzano nuclear weapons storage facility at Kirtland AFB.

It does seem to play into the "fusion paranoia" mentioned elsewhere as this suggests:

"It would appear the abductors 'access' the belief system of the
abductee and play back a scenario that will be acceptable to the
abductees and make them more cooperative. If the individual is
Judeo-Christian, the aliens and their purposes will appear to fit
within that system. If the subject is a Buddhist, the scenario will
be within that belief system. However this is not always true. In
one case, an abductee (who was Christian) was presented with a
totally pagan and mythical belief scenario. A mistake, or a test?
Who knows?
Great stuff Emp!
When I read your post I thought ...Damn! This is stuff right out of the "OUTER LIMITS" !
I read this on rigorous institution, and thought then that this ties in with Lord High Admiral of the Fleet, the Lord Hill Norton's reported belief, I saw him interviewed and the reports seem correct, that UFOs were real and they were Satanic.
As regards NIDS the fact that they're funded by a billionaire doesn't detract from it being an intelligence operation, there is a long history of states asking the super rich to go above and beyond. I think of the operation to get some lost nukes off the bottom of the Pacific that iirc Howard Hughes undertook, while pretending to look for oil. Iirc he even built and designed a special ship for the retrieval 8) 8)
Mighty_Emperor said:
According to one rumor, Pelican met with Jack Gibbons, the White House Science Advisor.

Great. Pelicans and Gibbons meeting together in secret. No doubt the Lizards will find a way into this one....
crunchy5 said:
I read this on rigorous institution, and thought then that this ties in with Lord High Admiral of the Fleet, the Lord Hill Norton's reported belief, I saw him interviewed and the reports seem correct, that UFOs were real and they were Satanic.

Got any links?

I only turned up:

Defense Chief Warns of 'Satanic UFOs'

by Ruth Gledhill, Religion Correspondent
The Times of London

Courtesy of: AUFORA News Update
March 1st, 1997

A former head of the Armed Forces has helped to form a pressure group to warn of the satanic nature of many unidentified flying objects.

Admiral of the Fleet Lord Hill-Norton, Chief of Defence Staff, 1971-73, is involved with UFO Concern out of worry that some UFO encounters are "definitely antithetical to orthodox Christian belief", according to today's Church Times.

The Rev Paul Inglesby, a sub-deacon in an Orthodox church, who is secretary of UFO Concern, said the truth about UFOs has been suppressed for many years. He had never seen a UFO himself but knew many who had. "It is what they do and the messages that come from them that are anti-Christian, or demonic." A memo about the new group had been sent to the editors of various UFO magazines, and letters of support had been received by, among others, a professor and a prisoner he added.

Gordon Creighton, a Buddhist who edits Flying Saucer Review, said the group's founders were right to be concerned: "I do believe that the great bulk of these phenomena are what is called satanic."

However, David Wilkinson, a Methodist minister and an astrophysicist whose "Alone In The Universe" (Monarch L7.99) was published this month, told Church Times that Christians had nothing to fear from alien life forms.

Lord Hill-Norton, 82, confirmed last night that he had helped to found UFO Concern, but declined further comment.


AUFORA Commentary:

This is simply another amazing misinterpretation of the UFO phenomenon. The connecting of UFOs to ANYTHING, whether it be extraterrestrial life or religion is just stupid! UFOlogy is inherently the study of things which are NOT known. How can people, then, associate UFOs with concrete ideals.

What is even more disturbing is the blatant human bias here. Humans really know very little, and thus most human judgements are wrong.