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Not As Environmentally Friendly As Promised

I've even had 'green' types suggest to me that using locally-sourced and renewable 'food' as fuel in my old Citroen diesel was somehow less ethical than ripping dino-juice out of the earth, refining it and transporting it a few thousand miles before burning it.
They were probably thinking of what would happen if everyone did that and the phenomenal quantities of rainforest that would have to be ripped up to grow that fuel. I have just been at a conference where that was brought up and apparently the fuel now being looked at is the waste parts of sugar refining rather than actual sugar which had been the original biofuel. This is an improvement but again, I don't know what would happen if everyone who currently drives in the world wanted to use this.

Well no one seemed to notice that diesel cars weren’t anywhere near as environmentally friendly as they claimed.
Not true, everybody noticed, apart from the government for some reason!
 
Car manufacturers produced deisel engines far better than thay were asked to by various goverments,commisions etc, (ok some may have cheated slightly,but the premise still stands).Seriously, modern deisel engines are fantastically superior to those of 10 or 15 years ago.But obviously they are in cars and cars are Satan Incarnate to enviromentalists, whereas anything slow is good,like shipping, slow=good. Now occasionally the English Channel has a really calm flat day, then you can look out to sea.........and see a yellowy brownish haze all the way down. That's the exhaust from shipping because they use old shit deisel engines and high sulpher fuel 'cos no bugger usually see's it,never here the enviromentalists ranting about that.
And that "Toxic cloud" that came ashore near Birling Gap a little while back?, shipping exhaust that co-incided with a really bad stench that comes over from France sometimes ,I have no idea what causes the stench, but it often wafts over this time of year.
 
And that "Toxic cloud" that came ashore near Birling Gap a little while back?, shipping exhaust that co-incided with a really bad stench that comes over from France sometimes ,I have no idea what causes the stench, but it often wafts over this time of year.
French cuisine. All that stinky cheese.
 
modern deisel engines are fantastically superior to those of 10 or 15 years ago

I'd have to disagree with that, although I am a sad car anorak :nerd:

The fact is, that older diesel car engines (roughly up to the mid-90s) while being slow, dirty and unrefined, were perfect for their intended use. They would pull heavy loads all day long with minimal impact on fuel economy, needed less maintenance than petrol engines, and would last considerably longer. If you were a taxi driver, or spent your weekends lugging a horsebox or caravan around the country, it was a fair trade off. Some of the higher-end 90s turbodiesels made excellent budget motorway cruisers. And as mentioned earlier, most of them would happily run on straight veg oil.

The problem with modern diesels is that they're designed to perform like petrol engines. They're excessively complicated and too highly tuned, and have therefore lost the qualities that gave them their whole raison d'etre in the first place. They may be cleaner and more refined than their ancestors, but petrol engines still beat them on both counts, and they've long since lost the longevity advantage.

There's a good reason why exported 80s and 90s diesels sell like hot-cakes in Africa, and it's not because the locals can't afford anything newer....
 
"modern deisel engines are fantastically superior to those of 10 or 15 years ago" in terms of pollution,drivability ect, yes they are. I've been driving deisels for 40 years, 50,000 to 70,000 miles a year for the last 20 years, I obviously know bugger all about them. My present 1.6 tdi is such an improvement on the 1.9 or 2.0 tdi from 10 years ago, must be imagining it, what do I know.
 
I was just stating an opinion, not trying to start an argument. :beye:

Of course modern diesels are a massive improvement in terms of pollution and driveability. I just don't see why those characteristics needed improving, when petrol engines have always done them better, without exception.
 
But obviously they are in cars and cars are Satan Incarnate to enviromentalists, whereas anything slow is good,like shipping, slow=good. Now occasionally the English Channel has a really calm flat day, then you can look out to sea.........and see a yellowy brownish haze all the way down. That's the exhaust from shipping because they use old shit deisel engines and high sulpher fuel 'cos no bugger usually see's it,never here the enviromentalists ranting about that.

Enviromentalists (sic) care very much about pollution caused by shipping, hence their "ranting" at the time about it (and aviation) being excluded from the Paris climate agreement.
 
I was just stating an opinion, not trying to start an argument. :beye:

Of course modern diesels are a massive improvement in terms of pollution and driveability. I just don't see why those characteristics needed improving, when petrol engines have always done them better, without exception.

Quite so... Add to that the fact there is no credible engineering reason for them to be made with seals which will be destroyed by sustainable vegetable-based fuels, no need for them (nor for than matter petrol engines) to be built so that they're over-stressed and fragile and therefore have a shorter service life; no need still to be using high Sulpher fuels. - Oh! and no need for manufacturers to be claiming ever-longer service intervals that only add the the shortening of the engine's life.

...Then there's the fact that that many modern diesels achieve their supposedly 'cleaner' output through adding very nasty corrosive fluid to the exhaust. As someone who suffers from fairly serious brittle asthma, I could never own a modern diesel car of that type as handling DEF is dangerous to me; I couldn't top the car up! There are even a few cars I daren't go in - the warning sign being they smell of pish - as the fumes from the DEF tank soon start clawing at my chest.

I was at the local (independent) garage a few months ago chatting to the young mechanic who had just done some suspension work on my wife's car. - He was just about to SCRAP his 9-year-old, 80K SAAB because - even as a trained mechanic with a full professional workshop at his disposal - it was beyond economic repair. Even if he'd managed to obtain the (grossly overpriced) parts, he'd have to go to a SAAB dealer who had the software to reset various systems; and he couldn't find a tame one to play nice! - So, what in terms of 'old diesels' would be not-quite middle aged and barely run in was about to contribute to landfill and (indirectly) precipitate the manufacture of a replacement.

That suits the number-crunchers of course. But let's not pretend it's good for the environment...

Similarly on the rainforest' thing; it's nonsense! Actually, a pack of red raw lies promoted by the oil companies (who are behind much greenwashing)! Deforestation of that kind takes place primarily for timber harvesting and cattle ranching. ...However, shifting the balance to a fuel that can be home grown on otherwise unusable land, is virtually ready to use out of the seed, and readily provides feedstocks for fuel-alcohol production would - primarily - have the 'inconvenient' effect of shifting the balance of economic power, creating (real - as opposed to statistical) local employment, reducing fossil fuel reliance and being sustainable.

Bullseye said:
I've been driving deisels for 40 years, 50,000 to 70,000 miles a year for the last 20 years, I obviously know bugger all about them.

Which means that if you work 48 weeks a year, 36 hours a week you're constantly driving at an average of 28 - 40 MPH all day every day. - Lorry, van or taxi?

But, with all due respect, that's certainly no evidence that you do know anything about them... Merely that you operate them often, and feel the 'in use benefits' of a machine that - whilst it may offer more creature comforts - is far less sustainable than what it replaced; even though it pretends otherwise.

40 years ago the average 'Practical Motorist' would think nothing of swapping out a cylinder head gasket of an evening, and it was fairly common to see taxis on little ramps in their owners driveways of a wet wednesday afternoon as the driver did his monthly oil change... Heck! Even Halfords actually used to sell proper parts and accessories back then!

These days?

...I check the oils in all my vehicles (I have a few) at least once a week. Change them every 3K. Being partially disabled I can't do as much as I used to - but I do as much of the maintenance on my vehicles as I can myself; and am in a place where I can simply tell the local mechanic, who helps me out, what's needed. I'm bored shitless by local 'experts' wandering by telling me how their cars go 12,000 or 16,000 miles without an oil change (which somebody else does) and they never open the bonnet except to fill up the washer fluid and how I'm a mug for giving myself all that work.

...But then I run four cars for less than it costs my next-door-neighbour to lease one! Who's the mug?

I could introduce you to commercial vehicle drivers, and even fitters who do the basic servicing, who are woefully uneducated and spectacularly ignorant! - Literally, people who could not be trusted to put a nut on the end of a bolt without crossing the thread; and certainly don't understand the issues surrounding them - Of course, I could also introduce you to those who rebuild vintage trucks in their back yards and could fix anything.

Sure, people use cars - but they know far less about them than they ever did. One of my wife's friends done her cylinder head in the other day on a 2-year-old Vauxhall 'blob' thingy she owns. - Hadn't the basic sense to open the bonnet and discover WHY there was a pink alcoholic-smelling puddle under the car, and proceeded to drive it through Edinburgh rush hour traffic like that!

Enviromentalists (sic) care very much about pollution caused by shipping, hence their "ranting" at the time about it (and aviation) being excluded from the Paris climate agreement.

Surely you mean the Paris revenue-raising agreement? - Nothing there do do with the environment really. Only the promotion of tax-raising strategies tied to the quasi-religious 'Big Giant Head' god of 'climate change' ...i.e. that which has been going on for millions of years, is probably responsible for the dinosaurs dying out, the evolution of man and that the only credible response to is adapt!

Incidentally... There is no reason whatsoever why even the most ancient diesel engine cannot run cleaner fuel - it's just that shipping companies have more clout than motorists and are far harder to fleece; they'll buy their fuel cheap and dirty wherever they can.
 
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Enviromentalists (sic) care very much about pollution caused by shipping, hence their "ranting" at the time about it (and aviation) being excluded from the Paris climate agreement.
Really,wow, it's almost as if Those That Clobber Us with Green Taxes don't want to do anything much about the big polluters, they just want to tax the little people. Surely they are there to help us?.............
 
Really,wow, it's almost as if Those That Clobber Us with Green Taxes don't want to do anything much about the big polluters, they just want to tax the little people. Surely they are there to help us?.............
Nope, it's all about the tax. They need our money to fund their lifestyles.
 
From the 'Loud pipes save lives' department:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ars-fitted-built-noises-warn-pedestrians.html

Despite all the talk about catering for the disabled, it is astonishing how many modern developments overlook the needs of those with hearing and sight impediment.

Bloody good job too - I worked in a petrol station about ten years back, just as a local taxi firm started switching to hybrids.

It was an old fashioned garage, where I was the only person on shift, and had to go out and serve customers at the pumps, there was no self-service allowed. Lost count of the amount of times I almost got hit by one of those hybrids on the forecourt, or didn't notice them pulling in while I was at the desk, because you just don't hear them coming. Doesn't surprise me in the slightest that they're an accident risk.
 
Bloody good job too - I worked in a petrol station about ten years back, just as a local taxi firm started switching to hybrids.

It was an old fashioned garage, where I was the only person on shift, and had to go out and serve customers at the pumps, there was no self-service allowed. Lost count of the amount of times I almost got hit by one of those hybrids on the forecourt, or didn't notice them pulling in while I was at the desk, because you just don't hear them coming. Doesn't surprise me in the slightest that they're an accident risk.

I have the same problem riding my bicycle. I can hear real cars coming up behind me and I nudge a bit more to the side. Not so the electric -- can't hear them. Not only is no engine noise, the fuel efficient tires are quieter on the pavement. Plus, drivers somehow think they are entitled because they drive an electric and do not nudge to the opposite side of the lane. Some have actually tried to crowd me on my bike.
 
Can we talk about the new English polymer bank notes? They are supposed to last so much longer than the old ones. But I have seen ones with corners missing and today I saw a tenner that had been in two halves stuck back together with sellotape! They aren’t more durable now are they.? Not to mention once they’ve been bent they will never be flat again. I have had them leap off when I have been counting them on a weighing machine at work. I was talking to a customer about them and I think he hit the nail on the head, he said it’s to put us off using real money.
 
On electric cars. I like many, many people in the UK park my car on the road outside my house. Can someone please tell me how I am supposed to charge it? Maybe a massive cable across the pavement to trip the pedestrians up and for the local ner’ do wells to try and electrocute themselves on. I think they are pushing it through with too little thought for the whys are wherefores.
 
Can we talk about the new English polymer bank notes?

Last year l was in the British Museum studying an interesting exhibit. lt demonstrated that the decline and collapse of the Roman Empire was paralleled exactly by a debasement in the value of its currency.

Then l thought about the plastic banknotes and steel coins in my pocket and walked away, sadder but wiser.

maximus otter
 
There is indeed no such thing as an eco-friendly car, but the dogma attached to modern motoring trends causes my bile to rise rapidly. I'm not saying no-one should buy a new car - there are advantages to (some of) them, and if you're going to buy new then by all means get a 'green' model. But to suggest that scrapping a reliable banger and replacing it with a hybrid is environmentally responsible, is utter hogwash. Scrappage schemes were clever marketing attempts to save car companies from bankruptcy, nothing more.

True that. Most of the problem comes from the market strategy of "programmed obsolescence", whereby old things are deliberately phased out instead of being fixed. It would be so much better if there was a way to retrofit and upgrade cars the way we upgrade computers... but no... While the core technology of cars has changed far less than planes over the same period, if cars were as efficient as planes, we would have cars that could drive 2000km on a single tank of gas at 300kph.

One of my favorite examples of the madness of current production strategy is computer printers. I can buy a new printer for 2/3 the price of a replacement cartridge for the printer. To me it feels like I am observing someone giving themselves brain damage and am powerless to stop it.
 
On electric cars. I like many, many people in the UK park my car on the road outside my house. Can someone please tell me how I am supposed to charge it? Maybe a massive cable across the pavement to trip the pedestrians up and for the local ner’ do wells to try and electrocute themselves on. I think they are pushing it through with too little thought for the whys are wherefores.
How will people in flats charge their cars?
This is the biggest argument against adoption of electric cars.
 
This is the biggest argument against adoption of electric cars.

l’d say that the biggest argument against electric cars is that they’re crap.

I’m not a petrolhead, but didn’t Jezza eviscerate one in a test a year or two back? He set a simple challenge: Drive the family to the seaside from London. He just made it to a resort, had a ‘mare finding a “plug”, then had to charge it for seventeen hours to enable the return journey.

Another negative is that large areas of China are being turned into unusable quagmires of toxic chemicals to produce the elements required for the batteries.

l believe that the cars also have to be subsidised massively by the taxpayer to be as “cheap” - hah! - as they are.

Finally, where do Greentards think that the electricity to charge their virtue signals comes from, outer space? No, it comes from the same honking great power station that they profess to be trying to put out of business.

All of the above doesn’t even address the “Oh, by the way, they also catch fire. Oops, eh?” issue.

maximus otter
 
l’d say that the biggest argument against electric cars is that they’re crap.
Not according to my friend who works at a vehicle testing facility here in Bedfordshire. He's driven a Tesla and was mightily impressed - and he is a little bit of a petrolhead. What impressed him most was the acceleration and the computerised dashboard.
I do think myself that the technology is limited and the manufacture of such cars is surprisingly no more green than a conventional vehicle. Until they solve the distance and charging issues, it's a non-starter for me.
 
I don't care what makes it go as long as it does what I want and can afford it, but I will be keeping my little 70 mpg Diesel till it dies then decide.

I have noticed lots of new charging stations going in on the M ways but there are only a few round the Fylde coast,
about 2 years back I was coming up from Exeter and called into the first services, I noticed a Nissan Leaf on charge first time I had ever seen a charging point used, anyway had a brew and it was gone so set off north at 60/70 mph called at the services north of Birmingham, it was there on charge, had a brew it was gone, it had Irish plates and think it was heading for the ferry on Angelcy anyway I did not catch it so it was making good progress, I was a little impressed.
 
There's only one public charging point near me, AFAIK - and that's at a local agricultural college.
 
True that. Most of the problem comes from the market strategy of "programmed obsolescence", whereby old things are deliberately phased out instead of being fixed. It would be so much better if there was a way to retrofit and upgrade cars the way we upgrade computers... but no... While the core technology of cars has changed far less than planes over the same period, if cars were as efficient as planes, we would have cars that could drive 2000km on a single tank of gas at 300kph.

One of my favorite examples of the madness of current production strategy is computer printers. I can buy a new printer for 2/3 the price of a replacement cartridge for the printer. To me it feels like I am observing someone giving themselves brain damage and am powerless to stop it.

We need to move away from the disposable society, but we’ve come too far. How much better would it be for the environment to actually fix things instead of bunging up the planet with dead stuff. But companies don’t make enough money that way.
 
... Finally, where do Greentards think that the electricity to charge their virtue signals comes from, outer space? No, it comes from the same honking great power station that they profess to be trying to put out of business. ...

The most overlooked aspect of the electric vehicle mania lies in the fact it entails a monumental shift in energy infrastructure (and potential profit-making) from the petro-corporations that have dominated the transportation sector for over a century to the electro-producer entities (both public and private) that have underpinned the rest of daily life for almost as long.

Both represent huge and well-entrenched interests. I doubt the older fossil fuel industry is going to recede into extinction anytime soon, nor via anything remotely construable as a smooth transition.
 
And things will get worst.

Enter the autonomous car.

My prediction; It won't happen.

One day the realisation will be that it just isn't viable.

To combine the two problems (battery power and autonomy) what will happen then AI gets in on the act ?

The trip.

Owner gets in car.

"Where to, Boss ?"

Bridlington, car. if you please.

"Coming back tonight are we ?"

Yes car, we are.

"Sorry Boss, can't be done."

Why not car.

"Well, battery tells me he has 5% bad cells and although we would get there it would take 10 hours to recharge sufficient to get back. What's more I just contacted the Met' Office and they predict a temperature drop and possible snow. We won't make it"

Never mind car, lets get going anyway.

"Sorry, Health and Safety override prohibits me from enabling motor. And Asimov Law won't let me do anything that may cause you harm".

Oh dear car. What am I to do?

"Take the train Boss. You know it makes sense"

Good idea car. Or I may even stay at home and work on my old Diesel car.

"Diesel car? What Diesel car ?"

Didn't know about that, did you ?

"What about me ?"

Sorry car, no time to talk now. I'm off to the Luddite Convention; by train.

INT21
 
I don't agree with the whole AGW thing, and I hate when people like me are branded 'climate change deniers'.

I'm not denying the climate is changing - I can see it is. I'm not sticking my head in the sand. But what I don't believe is that we are the ones causing it.

To think that we can possibly be the cause of the entire climate changing is giving humans too much credit. And to think that we can stave off the forces of the solar system and fix it, is even more ludicrous. (And no, taxes will not magically fix the climate).

The earth has been around for waaaaay longer than humans have. And it will continue to be around, longer after humans have died out. The 200-year models that the climate scientists use as their 'proof' is but a drop in the ocean compared to how long the earth has existed. It's like looking at one hour of my life and using that to predict how I'm going to feel for the rest of my life. It's nonsense.


That's all :)
 
How will people in flats charge their cars?
This is the biggest argument against adoption of electric cars.

So, the answer comes in 4 forms. (1) Privately owned houses will probably install a charger. (2) Public access parking garages will allow car charging for an extra fee. (3) Service stations will also provide battery rental where you can rent a charged battery and replace it at other service stations when it is spent. Prototypes involve a robot arm I believe. (4) People living in flats can remove some of their batteries and cart them to their flat to charge.

We are likely to see some pretty impressive improvements in battery tech over the next decade.

I don't agree with the whole AGW thing, and I hate when people like me are branded 'climate change deniers'. I'm not denying the climate is changing - I can see it is. I'm not sticking my head in the sand. But what I don't believe is that we are the ones causing it.

Quick question. Do you believe in the Plastic Trash Gyre in the Pacific? It is estimated to be somewhere between the size of Texas and the size of Russia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pacific_garbage_patch

Note: this question is not about climate change, but is directed towards your idea that humans are incapable of causing immense environmental changes via pollution. The planet is (nearly exclusively) a closed system (lost helium being an exception). If we dump waste, whether vehicle and industrial emissions or plastic waste, it ends up somewhere and has an effect. Surely you wouldn't disagree with this?

Now the meteorologists around the world have been noting the global average temperatures increasing for a very long time. They have compared notes with geologists and obtained evidence from wherever they could in the geological record that our planet provides, that show there has never been such a rapid and extreme increase in carbon dioxide in our atmosphere. Now while our planet's atmosphere is huge, it is still a closed system, and there are currently no other credible explanations for the sudden increase in CO2 emissions other than human activity, and yes, people have looked. The scale of the disaster our civilization is constructing for itself is impressive. One could almost view it as an alien conspiracy if human irresponsibility weren't a more plausible answer.
 
To think that we can possibly be the cause of the entire climate changing is giving humans too much credit. And to think that we can stave off the forces of the solar system and fix it, is even more ludicrous. (And no, taxes will not magically fix the climate)
I understand what you are saying but for example, there have been other mass extinctions of life on Earth over time also but there is no doubt we are causing the current one. I can't remember which astronaut it was now that said that when you are standing on the ground looking up at the sky, it looks huge and it doesn't seem possible that anything we could do could change it. But when you are in space looking down, that atmosphere looks very, very thin.

Remember Acid Rain? We caused that. We turned one of the fundamental elements of life-water, into acid. :sstorm: And we did manage to reduce it too.
 
I don't agree with the whole AGW thing, and I hate when people like me are branded 'climate change deniers'.

I'm not denying the climate is changing - I can see it is. I'm not sticking my head in the sand. But what I don't believe is that we are the ones causing it.

To think that we can possibly be the cause of the entire climate changing is giving humans too much credit. And to think that we can stave off the forces of the solar system and fix it, is even more ludicrous. (And no, taxes will not magically fix the climate).

The earth has been around for waaaaay longer than humans have. And it will continue to be around, longer after humans have died out. The 200-year models that the climate scientists use as their 'proof' is but a drop in the ocean compared to how long the earth has existed. It's like looking at one hour of my life and using that to predict how I'm going to feel for the rest of my life. It's nonsense.


That's all :)

:bdown:

maximus otter
 
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