Nurse Suspended For Prayer Offer

[stu neville]

Oh for the love of…

From Auntie Beeb:

A Christian nurse from Weston-super-Mare has been suspended for offering to pray for a patient's recovery.
Community nurse Caroline Petrie, 45, says she asked an elderly woman patient during a home visit if she wanted her to say a prayer for her.
The patient complained to the health trust about Mrs Petrie who follows the Baptist faith.
She was suspended, without pay, on 17 December and will find out the outcome of her disciplinary meeting next week.

Power of prayer

Mrs Petrie, who carries out home visits in North Somerset, said she had asked the patient if she would like a prayer said for her after she had put dressings on the woman's legs.
The patient, believed to be in her 70s, refused and Mrs Petrie insists that she left the matter alone.
The sick woman contacted the trust about the incident and Mrs Petrie was challenged by her superiors.

Mrs Petrie said: "The woman mentioned it to the sister who did her dressing the following day. She said that she wasn't offended but was concerned that someone else might be.
"I was spoken to by my manager. She said 'I've got a letter in one hand and an incident form in the other. You won't be able to work until we've investigated this incident'."
Mrs Petrie, who qualified as a nurse in 1985, said she became a Christian following the death of her mother.
"My faith got stronger and I realised God was doing amazing things in my life.
"I saw my patients suffering and as I believe in the power of prayer, I began asking them if they wanted me to pray for them. They are absolutely delighted."
A spokesman for North Somerset Primary Care Trust said: "Caroline Petrie has been suspended pending an investigation into the matter.
"She is a bank nurse and has been told we will not be using her in this capacity until the outcome of our investigation is known.
"We always take any concerns raised by our patients most seriously and conscientiously investigate any matter of this nature brought to our attention.
"We are always keen to be respectful of our patients' views and sensitivity as well as those of our staff."
Mrs Petrie says that she has taken advice from the Christian Legal Centre, which aims to protect the religious freedom of people who follow the Christian faith.

This has made various front pages, notably the Daily Mail (with predictable ire), but the nurse herself comes over as entirely kind and sincere - she just offered, rather sweetly, to pray for a patient. When the patient said no thank you, she just agreed and finished her job. The patient herself has said she doesn't want her to get into any trouble. By all accounts she's good at her job, etc etc.

Nonetheless, local radio (Bristol) earlier on reported that "an atheist society"(didn't catch which one) had endorsed her suspension, and News West reported that a further complaint has been received from a carer. This could get quite nasty. So much for good intentions...

 

[escargot]

I disagree that this is a harmless incident. What right does the nurse have to evangelise at work?

Mrs Petrie says that she has taken advice from the Christian Legal Centre, which aims to protect the religious freedom of people who follow the Christian faith.

What about a vulnerable patient's freedom to have treatment free from religious prosyletising?

I'd be furious if a nurse offered to pray for my bad leg. It's inappropriate and unprofessional.

 

[Stormkhan]

The patient herself has said she doesn't want her to get into any trouble. By all accounts she's good at her job, etc etc.

This being the case, why did the patient report it to the Healthcare Trust?

 

[Ravenstone]

From what I heard, the patient didn't report her. The patient mentioned the incident to her sister the next day, and the sister made the complaint.

The nurse in question is a bank nurse, apparently.

Personally, if someone offered to pray for me, I'd thank them. I wouldn't care what religion they are, whether it was saying a pray or casting a spell. I figure I'd take whatever help I could get.

 

[escargot]

So you'd be happy if a nurse rattled a bone bracelet over your gammy leg? Yeah. :lol:

Can't help thinking that prayers offered in the faith of a non-xtian religion would be splashed all over the tabloids.

 

[Ravenstone]

So you'd be happy if a nurse rattled a bone bracelet over your gammy leg? Yeah. :lol:

Well, as long as she didn't do that instead of changing the dressing and giving me the morphine.

It honestly wouldn't bother me. As long as it wasn't instead of actual medical treatment.

 

[stu neville]

I disagree that this is a harmless incident. What right does the nurse have to evangelise at work?
..
What about a vulnerable patient's freedom to have treatment free from religious prosyletising?

But Essy, she wasn't evangelising or prosyletising: she didn't try to convert the patient (or her leg) to Christiantity, nor did she state that the patient (or her leg) would go to hell if she didn't pray, or even imply that the treatment would fail without prayer. She just offered to pray for the patient (and/or her leg), and when her offer was declined she said no more about it.

It wasn't juju, or voodoo, or faith-healing: as Rave pointed out it was in addition, not in place of her existing treatment, just a clearly well-intentioned, if inappropriate gesture.

I'd be furious if a nurse offered to pray for my bad leg. It's inappropriate and unprofessional.

I concede that it wasn't professional, and perhaps misguided - but it was well-intentioned, and it strikes me that probably all it would take would be a superior to have a quiet word - if there was a repeat after that, then fine. But for what is prima facie a first notified offence then suspension is a ridiculous over-reaction.

 

[escargot]

It's not about how any individual might feel about being prayed for - it's about nursing ethics. That's why it would offend me: I'd feel I was being manipulated, because it would be very hard to say 'No, thank you' to a nurse who offered to pray for me after bandaging my poorly leg, propped up all alone at home.

The problem is that the nurse is trying to impose her religious views on someone who may find it hard to decline. It's not allowed. Patients can be vulnerable, especially in their homes.

 

[Ravenstone]

I do agree with Esc; it was unpardonably unprofessional. But whether it's sufficient to warrant a suspension is what seems a bit excessive. And as I said, personally, it wouldn't bother me. I'd consider it a kind gesture, whatever the faith.

If she started telling me I'd got a gammy leg cus I had been evil, or because I was suffering for the sins of my parents, or because I was under a curse, or because I'd just shot an albatross - well, then I'd been strangling her with my own bandages

 

[escargot]

I'm not commenting on what action was taken against the nurse. The important thing is that she acted unprofessionally (in, I agree, quite a minor way) and has been caught out.

Stu, the problem with a nurse asking a patient if she'd like a prayer saying is that it's not her job to pray for patients.
She's in a special position where her patient is supposed to be trusting of her and may feel obliged to say 'yes' to practically anything she asks.
That's why she's professionally bound not to ask anything not immediately connected to the job in hand.

 

[stu neville]

Stu, the problem with a nurse asking a patient if she'd like a prayer saying is that it's not her job to pray for patients.
She's in a special position where her patient is supposed to be trusting of her and may feel obliged to say 'yes' to practically anything she asks.
That's why she's professionally bound not to ask anything not immediately connected to the job in hand.

Fair enough. I must admit, when last night I asked a (practising Christian) nurse of my close acquaintance about it that was her immediate reaction too .

Mind you, she did also think suspension was a bit excessive, but by all accounts N Somerset Healthcare Trust (Mrs N has friends who have worked for them) has a somewhat hysterical attitude to staff matters. Apparently they suspended a doctor a while back for nipping out to the car park to switch off his car alarm whilst he was on duty (he was between patients, I should add, and the alarm was going off at night, close to a ward.) They've been known to monitor how long people spend in the toilet.

What will be interesting from a Fortean POV now he said skilfully pedalling away from his earlier assertions is how this develops from here. The local press comments section is already cooking away nicely.

 

[escargot]

I still wonder what the tabloid response would be if the prayers offered had been non-xtian.

 

[rjmrjmrjm]

I can't believe that this is being taken so seriously it's hardly unprofessional to wish someone to be better, whether that wish is religious or not.

I agree, if she was evangelising or trying to condemn then that would be unpardonable but simply offering a prayer... every day thousands of people are prayed for by Christians... without their concent. It's what Christians do, pray for other people.

My grandmother is suffering from a long term illness and being a good catholic she would probably be very glad to have a nurse offer a prayer for her... even if she had a muslim or jewish nurse look after her and he/she offered to pray for her she probably wouldn't decline.

I'd be glad that I had a nurse that obviously cared about me enough to do everything she could for me. Give me a nurse that's willing to treat me and pray for me any day over one who just treats an illness as a "tick-list job done, NEXT!" affair.

 

[escargot]

That'd be a lapse of professional detachment, though - unhealthy for both nurse and patient. Nurses have to be free to move on to the next patient without being emotionally involved with the last one. If they can't manage that, they are in danger of having inappropriate relationships with patients.

A Catholic patient who'd love a nurse to pray with her might be a perfect target for an unscrupulous nurse. That sort of closeness is dangerous to both patients and nurses, which is why it's not allowed.

 

[rjmrjmrjm]

I can see what you are saying Escargot and of course there must be a 'professional detachment' but I read no implication of any untoward behavior on the part of the nurse.

If the nurse had persisted in trying to get the patient to agree to a prayer... then I would be worried. The fact that the nurse let the matter drop does show, in my view, an adequate amount of 'professional detachment'.

I think the prayer was genuinely offered as an act of kindness and this poor woman, who is obviously good at her job, has been made to feel ashamed or guility for simply trying to be nice.

We can talk about 'professional detachment' and the position of trust that medical staff are responsible for until the cows come home... but we must not forget that they are humans with human feelings and emotions and beliefs and we cannot expect them to suspend those feelings completely in what can be a very emotional job.

It seems to be rather a fuss about nothing... but I do feel very sorry for this poor nurse.

 

[Ravenstone]

The thought does occur - why does she need the patient's permission to pray for her? I mean, a good Christian just prays for people, don't they? Regardless of whether they want to be prayed about or not.

 

[ramonmercado]

Its OTT.

I agree with Shelly about it being unprofessional but the suspension is unwarranted.

 

[Quake42]

Yeah I think we're all agreed here - it was unprofessional and slightly weird, but an informal word with the nurse concerned would have been the appropriate action, rather than a suspension.

Given some of the outrageous things I've known GPs say (and apparently feel able to do so with impunity) this seems like small potatoes really.

Escargot - I agree that the Daily Mail etc would not be getting so worked up if the nurse concerned had been Muslim, say, or Hindu. However, I also suspect that the Trust would have been less inclined to suspend her in those cases, fearing accusations of racism/legal action.

 

[Ravenstone]

The local press comments section is already cooking away nicely.

Quotes pages never bode well. They're always rage filled, barely literate, flame throwing rants. What gave me the biggest giggles there was the amount of people who seem to think that Catholicism is something completely different to Christianity

 

[Pete Younger]

I'm in complete agreement with Scarg, especially if the patient is elderly, they might think the prayer was because they were close to death,
but I do agree the suspension was ott.

 

[segovius]

If I was dying and some nurse asked to pray for me I'd say:

"thanks for asking - as opposed to just doing it - but I don't share your belief system, in fact I find it a loathsome creed but it is surely your right to believe what you like.

I won't inform anyone of your offer, even though I despise and reject Christian dogma as promoted by the Church, but be very careful - the atheist Taleban are rampant and they WILL hunt you down and try to make you lose everything. So let's just keep this between ourselves and you can pray - while I merely hope - that in years to come sanity and rationality will return and fundies of all beliefs and none will just let us live (and in my case, die) in peace."

 

[segovius]

Its OTT.

I agree with Shelly about it being unprofessional but the suspension is unwarranted.

Better get used to it.

Mr Wedge - meet Mr Thin End.

Mr Frog - meet Mr Boiling Water.

First they came for the buses - then they came for the medical professionals....

 

[ted_bloody_maul]

Is it really the "atheist taliban" that's behind this sort of behaviour or the "we-musn't-offend-anyone's-religious-beliefs taliban".

 

[ramonmercado]

I think we should get back to it being unprofessional. Its not any, Taliban. An elderly or vulnerable patient is open to exploitation. I don't believe that was the case here though. Hence my reasoning that the suspension was OTT.

 

[segovius]

Is it really the "atheist taliban" that's behind this sort of behaviour or the "we-musn't-offend-anyone's-religious-beliefs taliban".

Taleban is Taleban - probably both.

And the Islamist Taleban could be in there too and you wouldn't notice any essential difference in the underpinning psychology.

Question: why would you want to offend anyone?

Just because you don't agree? I don't agree with you (say) but does that mean I should come on here and call you nasty words that would get me banned?

And if I did, would that make the Mods wrong? Would we need to start a campaign?

Or can we just realize that we don't need to offend people as a right. there are other ways to argue.

But then maybe this nurse had a 'stupid face' like that BA woman with the crucifix, in which case I take it all back....

 

[Ravenstone]

The BA woman wasn't wearing a crucifix. She was wearing a cross. Had she been wearing a crucifix, I may have agreed about it being a religious symbol rather than normal jewellry. And I never understood why she couldn't wear it under her blouse anyway. I mean, most normal people would.

 

[segovius]

The BA woman wasn't wearing a crucifix. She was wearing a cross. Had she been wearing a crucifix, I may have agreed about it being a religious symbol rather than normal jewellry. And I never understood why she couldn't wear it under her blouse anyway. I mean, most normal people would.

I was being ironic/sarcastic.

 

[ted_bloody_maul]

Taleban is Taleban - probably both.

And the Islamist Taleban could be in there too and you wouldn't notice any essential difference in the underpinning psychology.
Question: why would you want to offend anyone?

Just because you don't agree? I don't agree with you (say) but does that mean I should come on here and call you nasty words that would get me banned?

And if I did, would that make the Mods wrong? Would we need to start a campaign?

Or can we just realize that we don't need to offend people as a right. there are other ways to argue.

But then maybe this nurse had a 'stupid face' like that BA woman with the crucifix, in which case I take it all back....

The answer can hardly be both. Atheist zealotry and not wishing to offend the sensibilities of various religious communities are hardly comfortable bed-fellows. Either way it seems slightly slanted to assume that it's those seeking to ignore religious sensibility rather than those who pander to it who are behind this sort of business.

I'm not really sure what you're taling about in the rest of the post or how it relates to the thread.

 

[Ravenstone]

I was being ironic/sarcastic.

Fair enough. Most news reports at the time described it as a crucifix, but when you saw the actual pictures of the woman, it was a cross. It was a minor error that I found irritating at the time.

 

[Yithian]

If faith has no role to play in our medical professions, why do we have chaplaincy services at hospitals?

I'll refer you to Cranmer:

Ironically, North Somerset Primary Care Trust issues guidance to its employees which positively encourages them to reflect on their 'personal mission and personal values' and 'to balance all aspects of their lives – physical, psychological, social, spiritual and emotional'.

http://archbishop-cranmer.blogspot.com/ ... -pray.html