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Nursery Rhymes

Humpty Dumpty falls from favour
Alexandra Frean, Education Editor

There was a time when every child could tell you who cut off the tails of three blind mice, why a sneeze might signify death from the plague and which sadistic child pushed the poor pussycat down a well.

But now the traditional nursery rhyme, in all its gruesome, bloody detail, is in danger of dropping out of modern culture. A survey suggests that 40 per cent of parents with young children cannot recite a single popular rhyme all the way through.

It is not that parents have stopped singing to their children entirely.

Three quarters of parents surveyed agreed that singing to young children was a good way to help them to learn to read.

But rather than sing nursery rhymes whose origins and meanings are lost to them, 44 per cent of parents said that they were singing pop songs and television theme tunes instead. These, they said, had much more relevance in their daily lives.

Ian Davidson, of the pollster MyVoice, which questioned 1,200 parents for the survey, said that the nursery rhyme was falling victim to market forces. “It all seems to be to do with choice and relevance. Twenty years ago there were 100 different breakfast cereals to choose from, now there are 300. The old brands such as Kellogg’s Cornflakes remain, but there will also be many other options.

“It’s the same with nursery rhymes. They will never die out among a core of people, but they are facing more competition in popular culture and they no longer have a clear field any more,” he added.

But Janine Spencer, a developmental psychologist at Brunel University, lamented the decline of the nursery rhyme, which she said was of enormous educational value.

“Not only are nursery rhymes an important historical part of our culture, but by singing them to young children you can help speed up the development of their communication, memory, language and reading skills.

“Singing nursery rhymes is also an entertaining and fun way to interact with your baby or toddler, and is crucial for recognising and learning phonic sounds,” Dr Spencer said.

The survey, commissioned by the children’s television channel Car-toonito, found the knowledge of nursery rhymes increased with age. Survey participants were given the first line of 15 common nursery rhymes and asked to complete it.

Four out of ten (40 per cent) younger parents (aged 30 years and under) could not recall a single nursery rhyme in full, whereas only 27 per cent of those aged between 55 and 64 and 13 per cent of those aged 65 or more are unable to recall one in full. Overall, 27 per cent of adults were unable to complete a single rhyme.

Of the rhymes people did know, the most popular were Jack and Jill (19 per cent), Humpty Dumpty (17 per cent) and Ring a Ring o’Roses (12 per cent).

But 71 per cent of parents had no clear idea of their origins or possible historical meaning.

The survey follows the introduction by the Government of a new phonics teaching programme in English primary schools called Letters and Sounds, which emphasises the importance of preparing preschool children for phonics through songs and nursery rhymes.

Hey diddle diddle, a tax and a riddle

Jack and Jill has several possible origins. It may mark King Charles l’s unsuccessful attempts to reform the taxes on liquid measures, Jack being half a pint and Jill being a quarter of a pint, or gill. Although the King’s measures were blocked, he subsequently ordered the volume standard measures to be reduced, while the tax remained the same

Humpty Dumpty was originally posed as a riddle, as “humpty dumpty" was 18th-century slang for a short, clumsy person, who might well be the kind to fall off a wall Similar riddles have been recorded in other languages, such as Boule Boule in French, or Lille Trille in Swedish

Ring a Ring o'Roses was usually accompanied by a playground skipping game that ended with children falling down and is said have originated with the Great Plague in 1665. Some experts dispute this, pointing out that European and 19th-century versions suggest that this “fall” was not a literal falling down, but a curtsy

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/u ... 045319.ece
 
I sing nursery rhymes to my daughter all the time - she's only 20 months, but can do all the actions to things like "Wind The Bobbin Up", and has been able to since before she could walk. My Mother-in-law plays tapes of them constantly, and shows her actions to do for each song - she comes back every week after staying with her gran for a night with a new song and new actions to do.

She still loves The Ramones though (but Bowie is her favorite).

And as far as cereals go, my favourite now, as it was when I was a toddler is Corn Flakes - the best.
 
Well I am an unashamed lover of nursery rhymes and folklore stories. I love the insight they give into the history and mindset of the people of times gone by. Lately I've read mother goose stories which I got off the Project Gutenberg website. The vaguely familiar and all but forgotten rhymes are fascinating, and it's exciting to trace the origin and often surprising meanings of some of those now unfamiliar sayings.
One question I have, it's about London Bridge is falling down. I'm sure we all know the rhyme, but has it ever had a sinister side, that was deemed unsuitable for children. I rmember my caribbean mother telling me on several occasions not to sing that rhyme, that it was a bad omen or karma. She never said why, and I developed a kind of phobia for it, avoiding that particular playground nursery rhyme as best I could. Has anyone else been warned away from this semingly innocent historical rhyme, and if so, have you ever figured out why it was taboo to sing it? (I could ask my mom of course but everytime it occurs to me I feel a curious reluctance to do so, and I have this niggling feeling that she would deny everything rather than discuss the taboo. It's something I've wondered even into my adulthood - why I wasn't allowed to sing london bridges as a child?
 
glamour_dust said:
One question I have, it's about London Bridge is falling down. I'm sure we all know the rhyme, but has it ever had a sinister side, that was deemed unsuitable for children. I rmember my caribbean mother telling me on several occasions not to sing that rhyme, that it was a bad omen or karma. She never said why, and I developed a kind of phobia for it, avoiding that particular playground nursery rhyme as best I could. Has anyone else been warned away from this semingly innocent historical rhyme, and if so, have you ever figured out why it was taboo to sing it? (I could ask my mom of course but everytime it occurs to me I feel a curious reluctance to do so, and I have this niggling feeling that she would deny everything rather than discuss the taboo. It's something I've wondered even into my adulthood - why I wasn't allowed to sing london bridges as a child?

I can't answer your question, but I can give an illustration of the song being regarded as sinister. When I was a kid there was a mystery programme that used it over its opening titles, and the footage of the Thames sped up as the song played. The only thing I recall about the rest of the programme was that it featured Munch's The Scream prominently and starred a teenage girl.
 
Not very old, I read this in a mid-'80s book, but still one of my favorites...

"Poor, Little Willie,
We'll never see Willie more;
For what he thought was H2O
Was H2SO4"

I'll never, ever forget the chemical formula for sulphuric acid.
 
Rub-a-dub dub, three gay men in a tub?
We have grown up to believe that the three men in a tub, of Rub-a-Dub Dub fame, were doing nothing more dubious than chatting about their respective trades.
Published: 12:06AM BST 30 Sep 2010

But, according to a study of the origins of our nursery rhymes, the butcher, the baker and the candlestick-maker may have been indulging in a more salacious activity.

Albert Jack, the author of a new book, said that the tub referred to a peep show that was a popular adult attraction at travelling fairs.

While it was possible that three men provided homosexual entertainment, he pointed out that the original 15th century rhyme was: "Rub-a-dub dub three maids in a tub, and who do you think were there? The butcher, the baker, the candlestick-maker, and all of them gone to the fair." The rhyme was sanitised by the Victorians, he added.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstop ... a-tub.html
 
Some Delightfully Scatological and Cruel Nursery Rhymes, From The Oldest Surviving Book Of Them
Mon, Apr 11, 2016 @ 09:11 via slate

The British Library holds this 1744 book of nursery rhymes, Tommy Thumb's Pretty Song Book, which was sold in London and is the oldest surviving published collection in the genre. Some of the rhymes in Tommy Thumb's are still familiar; others, like the wonderful "Piss a Bed," have dropped out of circulation.

http://www.follownews.com/some-deli...-from-the-oldest-surviving-book-of-them-134vv
 
An interesting article from 2015.

The dark side of nursery rhymes
By Clemency Burton-Hill
11 June 2015
Goosey Goosey Gander may be about religious persecution, while Lucy Locket is about 18th Century prostitutes, writes Clemency Burton-Hill.

Plague, medieval taxes, religious persecution, prostitution: these are not exactly the topics that you expect to be immersed in as a new parent. But probably right at this moment, mothers of small children around the world are mindlessly singing along to seemingly innocuous nursery rhymes that, if you dig a little deeper, reveal shockingly sinister backstories. Babies falling from trees? Heads being chopped off in central London? Animals being cooked alive? Since when were these topics deemed appropriate to peddle to toddlers?

http://www.bbc.com/culture/story/20150610-the-dark-side-of-nursery-rhymes?ocid=fbcul
 
This traditional rhyme..

Monday's child is fair of face
Tuesday's child is full of grace
Wednesday's child is full of woe
Thursday's child has far to go
Friday's child is loving and giving
Saturday's child works hard for a living
But the child that is born on the Sabbath day
Is blithe and bonny and good and gay



... is the version I know from childhood.

I have several questions so

* Anyone able to date it before the 1838 in the Wikipedia entry linked above?
* There's definitely a skew towards Sunday being extra special and nice, are there versions which don't emphasise Sunday?
* What other rhymes are there about qualities of things? I think there's one about the colours of wedding dresses? Is there one about the month you marry in? I could just be extrapolating from the Seven Brides for Seven Brothers song :) Depending on your views on demure white underpinnings that might me NSFW.
* What is wrong with Wednesday? Is it generally an unfavourable day or is there no other word that fits metre and rhyme?
* Modern versions sometimes change to Wednesday's child is free from woe - any other suggestions to make it happier for Wednesday weans?
 
This traditional rhyme..

Monday's child is fair of face
Tuesday's child is full of grace
Wednesday's child is full of woe
Thursday's child has far to go
Friday's child is loving and giving
Saturday's child works hard for a living
But the child that is born on the Sabbath day
Is blithe and bonny and good and gay



... is the version I know from childhood.

I have several questions so

* Anyone able to date it before the 1838 in the Wikipedia entry linked above?
* There's definitely a skew towards Sunday being extra special and nice, are there versions which don't emphasise Sunday?
* What other rhymes are there about qualities of things? I think there's one about the colours of wedding dresses? Is there one about the month you marry in? I could just be extrapolating from the Seven Brides for Seven Brothers song :) Depending on your views on demure white underpinnings that might me NSFW.
* What is wrong with Wednesday? Is it generally an unfavourable day or is there no other word that fits metre and rhyme?
* Modern versions sometimes change to Wednesday's child is free from woe - any other suggestions to make it happier for Wednesday weans?
Yours is the version I know too, although in your wiki link the picture is of a different version

993d391a98d5a45d51df5e2f7de66e63.jpg


I wonder if there are different attributes in other language versions?
 
I've found allegations (online) that this rhyme appeared in 18th century publisher John Newbery's children's books - specifically in either his Little Pretty Pocket-Book, first published in 1744, or his Mother Goose's Melody (ostensibly the first book of nursery rhymes in English; but possibly not originally published by Newbery).

This rhyme does not appear in either of these books' later editions available online. (I checked both, going page-by-page.)

I did find one 19th century nursery rhyme book (online) that reversed the Wednesday and Friday bits (as noted in the Wikipedia entry).

I also found a 19th century version that replaced 'Sunday / Sabbath Day' with 'Christmas Day'.

I'd never encountered the illustration version from the Wikipedia entry (posted above by Ladyloafer), where Sunday is listed first and the Wednesday / Thursday lines are completely different from the usual ones.
 
When I searched on "Monday's child" before posting, there was a general thread which also had something about the starting day of the week.

@Victory can you say when the Jewish week starts and finishes?
 
SIDE NOTE: When browsing through Mother Goose's Melody I nearly fell out of my seat laughing when I read the first line of this lesser-known rhyme before my typographic translator routines kicked in ...

Beefucks-A.jpg

 
When I searched on "Monday's child" before posting, there was a general thread which also had something about the starting day of the week.

@Victory can you say when the Jewish week starts and finishes?

Yes sure, thanks for asking me.

The answer is Saturday evening.

To elaborate:

The Jewish day starts in the evening, and ends in the evening.
The Sabbath for Jews is the seventh day of the week.
Parallel to the secular week, the Sabbath is Friday evening until Saturday evening.

So the Sabbath ends on what in the secular week is a Saturday evening, at the time when three stars can be seen in the night sky, and so the next day (and hence week) begins then....on Saturday evening.
What is the "name" of this day?
From Hebrew it translates as "The first day".

The majority of Jews have precise times for the end of the Sabbath.
For those in London, on Saturday 9 March 2019, the new week will begin at 18:44 hours.
(There is a minority custom which is a few minutes earlier, but I have seldom met people who follow it.)

P.S. During the week, there is an "overlap" of roughly an hour, where one day ends and the next begins.
 
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Ring-a-ring of Geranium
A pocket full of Uranium
Hiro-shima
We all fall down

From a book of Modern Verse for Children way back in my youth.
 
Whilst "Hickory Dickory Dock" in more or less its current form was first recorded around 1744, its origins appear to go much further back in time.
Originally probably a counting rhyme, hickory dickory dock seems to be a corruption of the now extinct Cumbric for eight, nine ten - hevera, devera, dick. Cumbric was a regional dialect of ancient Brittonic and, as such, its roots can be traced back to Proto-Indo-European.
So, next time your children or grandchildren sing about mice running up clocks, the counting bit at the start and end of the rhyme may well pre-date the invention of the clock by some 5,000 years.
 
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The East End of London variation to pop goes the weasel is this :

Up and down the City road,
in and out the Eagle,
that’s the way the money goes,
Pop goes the Weasel.

To the older generations of Hoxton and Shoreditch, pop goes the weasel referred to pawning anything of value.

There was a pawn shop right next door to the Eagle pub, ( the pub still exists I think) in the City road, (Hoxton).

Once the money had been drunken away, the boozers would go next door and pawn anything they could, like a watch, or wedding ring etc. then go back into the Eagle for more of the same, and the whole process would start again. :)

Popping the weasel, was the actual transaction of pawning something of worth.

At least that was what I was always told as a kid
 
I was told once that 'humpty dumpty' referred to a cannon that was situated on Norwichs or Lincolns city wall (i forget which)
 
I was told once that 'humpty dumpty' referred to a cannon that was situated on Norwichs or Lincolns city wall (i forget which)

You mean you weren't aware of the French original?

Here it is, along with translator's notes.
Just try reading it out loud and it all makes sense ;)

humpty.JPG



If you enjoyed that one, then try this:

pas.JPG
 
You mean you weren't aware of the French original?

Here it is, along with translator's notes.
Just try reading it out loud and it all makes sense ;)

View attachment 35953


If you enjoyed that one, then try this:

View attachment 35954
I see there is a foot note at the bottom of that webpage:

[Ed. note:
From the East Anglia Tourist Board in England: "Humpty Dumpty was a powerful cannon during the English Civil War (1642-49). It was mounted on top of the St Mary's at the Wall Church in Colchester defending the city against siege in the summer of 1648. (Although Colchester was a Parliamentarian stronghold, it had been captured by the Royalists and they held it for 11 weeks.) The church tower was hit by the enemy and the top of the tower was blown off, sending "Humpty" tumbling to the ground. Naturally the King's men* tried to mend him but in vain."
* NB: The "King's men" would have been infantry troops, and the "King's horses" the cavalry troops.]
 
From the 'Red Gnomes in little cars' convo:


Also hundreds of Library baby rhyme times have unnerved me horribly. I still get an uncontrollable twitch when I hear "The Wheels on the Bus."
And I bet you don't know how many verses there are to "Greensleeves." *:worry:
Couldn't stand nursery rhymes even when I was preschool. Much preferred Grandad singing me old Cockney songs - these are memories from when I was about 4 and staying with grandparents due to Mum's illness.

Samples:
https://lyricsplayground.com/alpha/songs/i/ifitwasntfortheousesinbetween.html
https://lyricsplayground.com/alpha/songs/t/thespaniardthatblightedmylife.html
https://lyricsplayground.com/alpha/songs/b/burlingtonbertiefrombow.html

I'm not saying I understood the connotations! But they all have memorable hook lines like most successful pop songs.
 
From the 'Red Gnomes in little cars' convo:



Couldn't stand nursery rhymes even when I was preschool. Much preferred Grandad singing me old Cockney songs - these are memories from when I was about 4 and staying with grandparents due to Mum's illness.

Samples:
https://lyricsplayground.com/alpha/songs/i/ifitwasntfortheousesinbetween.html
https://lyricsplayground.com/alpha/songs/t/thespaniardthatblightedmylife.html
https://lyricsplayground.com/alpha/songs/b/burlingtonbertiefrombow.html

I'm not saying I understood the connotations! But they all have memorable hook lines like most successful pop songs.
One of my Grandad's favourites was:

It was Christmas day at the work house
The rain was snowing fast
A bare footed man with shoes on
Stood sitting on the grass

I've no idea where he got it from, it sounds like something Spike Milligan would have written, like:

The boy stood on the fish deck
Eating red hot scallops
One fell down his trouser leg
And really burned his ankles
 
Well I am an unashamed lover of nursery rhymes and folklore stories. I love the insight they give into the history and mindset of the people of times gone by. Lately I've read mother goose stories which I got off the Project Gutenberg website. The vaguely familiar and all but forgotten rhymes are fascinating, and it's exciting to trace the origin and often surprising meanings of some of those now unfamiliar sayings.
One question I have, it's about London Bridge is falling down. I'm sure we all know the rhyme, but has it ever had a sinister side, that was deemed unsuitable for children. I rmember my caribbean mother telling me on several occasions not to sing that rhyme, that it was a bad omen or karma. She never said why, and I developed a kind of phobia for it, avoiding that particular playground nursery rhyme as best I could. Has anyone else been warned away from this semingly innocent historical rhyme, and if so, have you ever figured out why it was taboo to sing it? (I could ask my mom of course but everytime it occurs to me I feel a curious reluctance to do so, and I have this niggling feeling that she would deny everything rather than discuss the taboo. It's something I've wondered even into my adulthood - why I wasn't allowed to sing london bridges as a child?

The rhyme itself is about a battle for control of London (and the Bridge) between King Olaf and Sweyn Forkbeard.

During their fight, the bridge was pulled down to some extent by Olaf men's, who tied ropes to the supports.

The "Sinister" bit would refer to the words "My Fair Lady".

There is supposedly an old custom to bury the body of a virgin girl / young woman in a new structure.
Some say this is connected to the "Virgin" mary.

Again, supposedly, when the longest standing medieval version of London Bridge was removed in 1831 it contained a skeleton of a young girl.
 
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