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Odd stone in King's Cross, London

S

Sifaka317

Guest
For those who know the area, I have a question. There is a very old looking stone set into the pavement just outside the KFC on the south side of Gray's Inn Road (right where Gray's Inn meets the Pentonville and Euston Roads). It's roughly rectangular in shape, about 18"-24" tall, and around 12" wide on each side (these are just rough estimates - I didn't measure it). Anyone have any ideas about it? Someone has gone to some trouble to set it here, and/or to fit the paving around it. I'll try to take a photo next time I'm up there.
 
Why do you think the stone is odd? What makes it different from the other stones in the pavement?
 
Elffriend said:
Why do you think the stone is odd? What makes it different from the other stones in the pavement?

It looks very old and worn.

I have just today been reliably informed that it is probably a boundary stone - there were boundaries of 3 parishes meeting at this point, apparently.
 
I've always wondered about this stone, too, Sifake. I went as far as emailing Robert Elms on BBC London to see if he could feature it as one of his Questions-To-Londoners bits of his radio show... didn't hear back, though!

One of the reasons it stands out is because it's a different colour to the rest of the surroundings... much lighter, if I recall. Yes, it is very worn... funny it's survived at all though.

Inidentally, it's bang opposite an odd building with what appears to be a lighthouse on the roof... someone told me it used to be an oyster restaurant.
 
Perhaps it was once a Sally Ann; the one here has a lighthouse on its roof.
 
I can vaguely remember Robert Elms referring to the "Lighthouse" has having once been an oyster restaurant.
I'll pop along soon with a camera.
 
Hah! I've been an' taken pictures an' stuff...

The "Lighthouse" building...
KingsXlLighthouse.jpg

This is one picture of the stone...
PuzzleStone2.jpg

And another one ...
PuzzleStone1.jpg


I did ask the gentleman if he minded me looking at the stone close-up ... after all, it would've looked strange to him if I started staring at his butt. He still looked at me as if I were insane.
The staff in the KFC considered me mad for asking about it and none would admit to seeing it either before or placed after they started work there.

To me, it looks like a sack builders concrete that got damp and set, the sack rotting away, leaving an amorphous lump useful to sit on.
 
I think it's a milestone.

If you look at the 1885 Map of Islington (Southern Section), which you can find here, you'll see "Holborn 1 MS" written at the junction where this stone is situated. (It'll take a while to magic up the bigger map and this junction is in the bottom left hand corner of the bit that sticks out from the main body of the map on the western edge).
 
looking at the photo it isn't clear if the stone is on the paving or if the paving is cut round it, assuming the paving is round it and that this is the stone marked on the map could it be a boundary marker for the borough of Islington? are there any other similar markers at any of the other points on the boundary? the layout of that boundary looks a little Random further down Pentonville road, wouldn't North street have made more sence?
 
Entia non multi said:
...could it be a boundary marker for the borough of Islington? are there any other similar markers at any of the other points on the boundary? the layout of that boundary looks a little Random further down Pentonville road, wouldn't North street have made more sence?

The boundary may well have existed a long time before North Street was laid out. London's growth paid little heed to common sense until the relatively modern appearance of men in grey suits.

I don't suppose there's any reason that a milestone couldn't also serve as a boundary marker, or the other way around - in fact it makes sense that they would.
 
Last time I had a look at that stone (about a year ago), IIRC, it was more or less built into the kerb, directly by the roadside, so it looks like it's been moved a bit (loads of building and regeneration going on in King's X, it certainly needs it).
 
Stormkhan said:
The staff in the KFC considered me mad for asking about it and none would admit to seeing it either before or placed after they started work there.

Standard KFC practice: deny everything. Saying that i recognise buildings in your photos and i've never noticed it.
 
Entia non multi said:
looking at the photo it isn't clear if the stone is on the paving or if the paving is cut round it,
It's apparently sitting on a slab of concrete (rather than a paving slab) and the pavement is continued around the concrete. So if it is a mile stone, they might've picked it up while laying out the new paving, put a "patch" of wet concrete down, then put the stone back.

Couldn't see any markings on it though.
 
A milestone, especially a very old one, wouldn't necessarily have markings. In the old days could be more like marker posts - a kind of physical aide-memoire. In the days of majority illiteracy markings would have been of little use anyway - ask the staff at KFC. You can see this kind of post, unmarked and apparently random, along the wayside of many rural roads. Their potential relevance only becomes apparent when you find out that the road was once a main route and that the stone sits at a precise distance from some centre of population.

It would be interesting to know how many of these have survived the centuries to become fossilized within the landscape of modern London.

Peter Ackroyd's covers a lot of this kind of ancient survival in his book London The Biography. He mentions one particular area of the City (can't remember precisely where - I'll have to look it up) which was completely redeveloped, in the usual brutalist grid-pattern style, after the war. This area was then re-redeveloped more recently and for no apparently logical reason the medieval road patterns re-emerged.
 
Unmarked stones like this are more likely to be 'hundred' or parish stones - a form of boundary marker. That said, it could be a waystone too. One thing to note is that these tend to be worn away more at the base, from years of carts, etc. splashing them with water, mud, etc..
 
Stormkhan said:
Hah! I've been an' taken pictures an' stuff...

Good work Stormkhan. Beat me to it.

Does anyone have any ideas about the stone outside the 'Griffin' in Whetstone High Road (North London, 5 mins. from Totteridge & Whetstone tube) - a similar size and also very old-looking. Perhaps another boundary stone, as I think two or more parishes meet there. Local tradition has it down as an actual whetstone, upon which soldiers sharpened their weapons just prior to the Battle Of Barnet...sounds a load of old cobblers to me :D , too good to be true. (the stone does have odd 'cuts' or lines on its sides though)
 
Spook said:
Peter Ackroyd's covers a lot of this kind of ancient survival in his book London The Biography. He mentions one particular area of the City (can't remember precisely where - I'll have to look it up) which was completely redeveloped, in the usual brutalist grid-pattern style, after the war. This area was then re-redeveloped more recently and for no apparently logical reason the medieval road patterns re-emerged.

I believe that might be the area surrounding St Paul's Cathedral.
 
After the Great Fire of London in 1666 - there was obviously a lot of rebuilding to do - The Architect of St Pauls, Wren, made detailed plans to rebuild local london streets with a radical redesign of straight grids and large squares, piazzas and avenues - however there was too much resistance and legal disputes from the local inhabitants - It seems they wanted to keep the narrow meandering but familiar streets - which I guess had mostly been established from Roman times. It would have looked very different if he had got his way.

-
 
This area was then re-redeveloped more recently and for no apparently logical reason the medieval road patterns re-emerged.

Peter Ackroyd's London

I've just dug out the link to his BBC2 programme where this was mentioned and where I had recalled seeing this only recently on TV when I was visiting someone.

It was the post-war *Concrete Jungle* buildings surrounding St Paul's that have been/are in the process of being re-designed and as such the medieval alleys and sidestreets are reappearing again between the buildings.
 
sifaka said:
Does anyone have any ideas about the stone outside the 'Griffin' in Whetstone High Road (North London, 5 mins. from Totteridge & Whetstone tube) - a similar size and also very old-looking. Perhaps another boundary stone, as I think two or more parishes meet there. Local tradition has it down as an actual whetstone, upon which soldiers sharpened their weapons just prior to the Battle Of Barnet...sounds a load of old cobblers to me :D , too good to be true. (the stone does have odd 'cuts' or lines on its sides though)

Took some pics today:

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y111/Sifaka/Whetstone4.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y111/Sifaka/Whetstone3.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y111/Sifaka/Whetstone1.jpg
 
Obviously, some effort was made NOT to remove or destroy this stone. Was the pavement put down by KFC, or by the city? If the city did it, then some government official must know about it, or know where to find out about it. Also, the local library might have some sort of historical document about it. Librarians know amazing things, and know where to find out about anything. A local historical society/museum might be of help as well.
 
I agree that it could be a milestone - isn't the London Stone all that remains of a Roman one? Also, given its positioning by the roadside (assuming it's still more or less in situ), could it possibly be a mounting block (they were sometimes combined with milestones as well)? There seem to be quite a few of them dotted about on town and city roadsides, varying from fairly roughly shaped lumps like this one, to more finished ones with little steps carved in.

From my days living in Hull, there's a particularly good example of the latter type on Holderness Road, just where it becomes a dual carriageway, and another on Beverley Road, which has been absorbed into the exterior walls of a pub. Amazing that they've lasted, really, considering what has been swept away in the name of progress (in Hull, perfectly servicable 17th and 18th century warehouses in the Old Town were being demolished well into the 1970s). I wonder if their survival was due to coincidence, or was there another reason, lost in the mists of tradition?
 
Does anyone have any ideas about the stone outside the 'Griffin' in Whetstone High Road (North London, 5 mins. from Totteridge & Whetstone tube) - a similar size and also very old-looking. Perhaps another boundary stone, as I think two or more parishes meet there. Local tradition has it down as an actual whetstone, upon which soldiers sharpened their weapons just prior to the Battle Of Barnet...sounds a load of old cobblers to me , too good to be true. (the stone does have odd 'cuts' or lines on its sides though)

here's another one, in the East End:

from
http://www.leytonstone.towntalk.co.uk/about.php

Leytonstone is thought to have taken its name from a Roman military distance marker and is shown on maps from early times as “Leyton Stone”. The stone is still there to be seen at the junction of Holly Bush Hill and New Wanstead Road, it was moved from its original location when the roads were improved.

here's a picture

http://www.leytonstonefestival.org.uk/i ... hstone.JPG

apparently it says on it: "To Epping XI Miles through Woodford, Loughton".
"To Ongar XV Miles Through Woodford Bridge, Chigwell, Abridge".

This is a replica though, surely?
 
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