On Becoming A Person

[auvydarlov]

Sounds similar to my experience

When i read your account of 'becoming a person' it seemed to resonate a bit with my experience. I remember being about three and playing in a paddling pool in the back garden. I was given a sauce pan to play with by my mother and was scooping up water and pouring back into the pool.

I was staring at the saucepan and it occurred to me that I was a self-aware being with a present and a future but oddly no past.... it was at that moment that I 'turned on' and actually starting thinking instead of just reacting. Its difficult to describe but everything became deeply fascinating because nothing had been regarded until that point.

I remember thinking - these are my actual first memories and I was trying to look at everything but the detail was overwhelming. I knew it was a special moment and wanted to 'record' it in my mind. I can still remember the flares (this was 1975) my father was wearing (didn't suit him!)

As a scientifically orientated person i realize this memory is deeply suspicious. Too subjective and prone to interpretive bias. Plus additionally what does it mean if it was remembered correctly? That self-awareness is a sudden quantum leap and not a gradual process?

That either means my soul did not enter my body until then (if you prefer) or the brain does not turn on self awareness until enough environmental stimuli was recorded to enable sufficient goal orientated behavior to commence.

Most likely a false memory....

 

[rynner2]

Re: Sounds similar to my experience

That either means my soul did not enter my body until then (if you prefer) or the brain does not turn on self awareness until enough environmental stimuli was recorded to enable sufficient goal orientated behavior to commence.

IIRC, there is at least religion that considers that children are not fully human until a certain age.

(Not Catholicism, obviously, since they consider just-conceived embryos to have full human 'rights'.)

 

[MachineElf]

sixty10 wrote:

Somehow it seemed "laughable" that I was expected to see out of these two tiny holes - I couldn't see behind me, or too far to the side - it was a bit like putting on a pair of glasses and being aware that your peripheral vision isn't perfect. But the overwhelming sense was that I had been able to see *more* "before".

Like the other posts preceding, this is an interesting experience too. It resonates with some spiritually transformative experiences (like the NDE) where people often claim they can somehow 'see' 360 degrees. I laughed when I read your account, sixty10, because it captures the feeling of incredulity that I had when I had my own experience.

auvydarlov wrote:

Most likely a false memory....

Well, I think that is becoming less likely given the number of similar unprompted memories that people are reporting here. (Unless posters are confabulating right now). It's the unprompted nature of these memories that makes them less likely to be entire confabulation.

I am a scientific type too, so I understand and appreciate skepticism. If other strange phenomena hadn't happened to me in my life that fundamentally challenged my taken for granted assumptions about what is possible, I would've made a fabulous arch skeptic.

 

[AngelAlice]

If, by false memory, you are referring to some kind of confabulation, I cannot deny that it is a possibility. But why?

because you can. the whole 'false memory' thing has got a bit devicive because there are people with agenda's that have been very vocal on the topic the last decade or so, but when it comes down to it, i think that if you could hold human memory to a high enough standard against the actuality, most or all of of memories could be classed as 'false memory'.

our memories are strange jumbled up things at the best of times, but like 'scarg says, there's nothing wrong with that, it;s just part of being human.

So, basically we can't be sure we really remember anything. Okay, that's probably true - but it cuts the other way, we can't be sure we don't either. The real point is the uncertainty. What we can't do is use the nebulous unquantiifiable concept of 'false memory' to apply arbitrary limits on the likely or the possible, because that is simply an expression of our own prejudice.

'False Memory Syndrome' does have some bad press and deservedly so. It's been used by some very shady organizations, with pro-paedophilic connections to undermine people who have accused their parents of abuse. Sadly, much of the data has been distorted and exaggerated through being hijacked by such pressure groups, and we all need to be very wary of it. Before accepting anything alleged I would advise reading carefully, particularly into the connections between many supporters of FMS and paedophilic groups and magazines like Paedika.

Quite scary.

Sorry to do a little hijacking myself. Just wanted to make this point, but if anyone wants to continue this aspect of the discussion maybe we should start a new thread, since this one is so specific and interesting.

 

[auvydarlov]

false memory

I seem to stirred thing up a bit by saying 'probably a false memory'. Reading it back it seems like a complete misnomer.

I know I was in the back garden in the paddling pool because my mother remembers me being there too (British weather not permitting too many of these garden paddling pool adventures - so it does stand out as a special event). Perhaps what I should have said is that possibly I am attaching too much significance to the event - a memory based on a actual event but embellished over the past 30+ years.

However I can't rule out that it is a accurate memory either - which would be very interesting because it suggests self awareness is a quantum leap. Anyway this seems to be to be the point when 'I became a person'.

 

[IamSundog]

MachineElf wrote:

IamSundog wrote:

I have memories of early childhood where there seemed to be a "voice" or thoughts in my head that didn't seem to be "mine". It seemed to be a sort of grown-up, but not authoritarian, and not my parents.

Yes, that's exactly what it was like Sundog. Do you remember the content of any of these thoughts? Because you said that the thoughts seemed "sort of grown-up", I am wondering whether they were also ahead of your developmental stage too?

I remember my voice providing commentary on scenes I was observing (when I was around age 4). One time I saw a group of disheveled, shady-looking men coming down the street; the voice said "Those guys stink" (i.e. were not reputable, and probably literally smelled bad too). Another time I remember it advising me against something aggressive I was planning against my little sister. Another time, I guess while I was learning names of colors, the voice started singing a song celebrating the color brown, whose only lyrics were the word "brown" over and over. I still remember that song, and I'm certain I've never heard it anywhere else because it's a very weird little song, it's in 5/4 time. (This was in the 50's, it was not a memory of Sesame Street....).

I interpret that voice as being part of my own mind that had assimilated ideas and attitudes from the grownups (my super-ego?), that expressed or mimiced these ideas verbally, but that my "pre-verbal" self did not yet "identify with".

I have many memories from the age of two, which I date based on where we lived then. And once during a very intense catharsis during a sort of spiritual/psychological workshop I experienced a vivid memory from a time before I could pull myself up to standing, maybe around 6 months of age. This was a non-narrative, "full-body memory" laden with a key truth about my early life. While I acknowledge what some have said here about our ability to manufacture memories, I do trust the reality of these early memories because they are very personal and don't relate to any "family stories" I would have heard later.

 

[MachineElf]

MachineElf wrote:

IamSundog wrote:

I have memories of early childhood where there seemed to be a "voice" or thoughts in my head that didn't seem to be "mine". It seemed to be a sort of grown-up, but not authoritarian, and not my parents.

Yes, that's exactly what it was like Sundog. Do you remember the content of any of these thoughts? Because you said that the thoughts seemed "sort of grown-up", I am wondering whether they were also ahead of your developmental stage too?

I remember my voice providing commentary on scenes I was observing (when I was around age 4). One time I saw a group of disheveled, shady-looking men coming down the street; the voice said "Those guys stink" (i.e. were not reputable, and probably literally smelled bad too). Another time I remember it advising me against something aggressive I was planning against my little sister. Another time, I guess while I was learning names of colors, the voice started singing a song celebrating the color brown, whose only lyrics were the word "brown" over and over. I still remember that song, and I'm certain I've never heard it anywhere else because it's a very weird little song, it's in 5/4 time. (This was in the 50's, it was not a memory of Sesame Street....).

I interpret that voice as being part of my own mind that had assimilated ideas and attitudes from the grownups (my super-ego?), that expressed or mimiced these ideas verbally, but that my "pre-verbal" self did not yet "identify with".

Right, yes, that does sound more like super ego, or embodied parental voice, rather than another kind of meta-mind that understands what the child cannot (by their own devices).

But, I guess the next question is, what do these kinds of memories suggest? I have in mind the following kinds of statements made by posters ...

"...He remembers standing up in his cot during a thunderstorm, he was holding the bars and looking out the window when he had the sensation of becoming aware of his existence. "

"...I was only later when it clicked, I remember distinctly looking at the sequence and it was as if something had 'clicked' and the world came into focus."

"...what hit me was this "sudden switching on and being aware of a very early achievement..."

"...It's the old song 'Oh Lovely Ball of Golden Light'. And the odd thing is I understand the meaning of what she sings without actually understanding the words. "

"...It was like someone was talking to directly to me in my head, asking me my opinions on my religon...things I really wouldn't have thought about at that age."

"...when it suddenly occurred to me with all the fanfare of an epiphany that I could "only" see out of my eyes. Somehow it seemed "laughable"... the overwhelming sense was that I had been able to see *more* "before". However although this was a very strong feeling, it was unspecific - I couldn't remember anything about the "more" or the "before"; it was a little like trying to remember a dream."

"... it occurred to me that I was a self-aware being with a present and a future but oddly no past.... it was at that moment that I 'turned on' and actually starting thinking instead of just reacting."

I suspect there is some kind of meta-awareness, and that is what is behind the non-childlike understanding in the above statements. Young children have concrete understanding of the world, and they tend not to be able to objectify their own experience in the manner described above. It leaves me wondering whether there is a meta-mind (for want of a better term) which is with us when we are very young, but which becomes experientially diminished as we grow into awareness of ourselves as a biological being, located in time and space. As certain structures in the brain come online, this meta-awareness (or meta-mind) disappears into the background, behind sensory processing and thought, and behind concrete thinking appropriate to our developmental age.

Has anyone got a better explanation, assuming these accounts are accurate(ish) accounts of childhood experience?

 

[escargot]

Someone I know well once told me that when she's seriously worried or stressed, if she wakes in the night with the problem on her mind she will hear her late mother's voice in her ear telling her to stop fretting as everything will be OK.

This has always happened, as long as she can remember, going back to well before her mother's death.
She concludes that 'it's that sensible bit of my mind telling me to let go.'

Reminds me of the Lennon/McCartney song 'Let It Be', as 'Mother Mary' is believed to be McCartney's late mother, giving similarly soothing advice from beyond the grave. 8)

We have interesting threads on disembodied voices etc. if anyone thinks we're straying off-topic.

 

[AngelAlice]

I am a scientific type too, so I understand and appreciate skepticism. If other strange phenomena hadn't happened to me in my life that fundamentally challenged my taken for granted assumptions about what is possible, I would've made a fabulous arch skeptic.

ME - you are speaking for me too in this! I come from a very very scientific background, and, until my own brush with the weird, had very little time for the 'nonsense' of the paranormal. We all need these lessons in humility though. It would benefit us immensely as a species if we could bring ourselves to admit how little we actually know about this universe we inhabit. But I think perhaps, collectively, we are just too afraid to do that.

 

[elprincipeoso]

memory construction

Further to what Rynner said about psychological construction of memory, as opposed to it being like a tape recorder, i tend to agree. My dad had a stroke a few years ago, temporarily losing his short term memory - he was having 30 second memory loops - i.e. "where am I? what happened?" - "you're in hospital Dad, you had a stroke." "oh.... ok.... where am I? etc.

During this period, as his brain rewired it self to a full recovery thankfully, he was repeatedly furnished with the details of the events as they transpired. When we talk about it now, his memory of this period is as real as if he actually remembered the events, but he acknowledges that this "memory" is actually a confabulation created by the stories of the family

saying that, I have distinct memories of childhood when i was certainly no older than 2 years, sometimes images from my own eyes, and sometimes as if from a 3rd person perspective. I can only suspect that the 3rd party ones are confabs from stories or something? or was I having OOB experences as a child?!? :shock: [/quote]

 

[sixty10]

Someone I know well once told me that when she's seriously worried or stressed, if she wakes in the night with the problem on her mind she will hear her late mother's voice in her ear telling her to stop fretting as everything will be OK.

My mother says exactly the same thing about her late father. I'm so jealous - I'm a habitual fretter but the spirit world just leaves me to it

 

[escargot]

I come from a very very scientific background, and, until my own brush with the weird, had very little time for the 'nonsense' of the paranormal.

*nods*

The former Mr Snail, then a science teacher, had a similar attitude to the unknown.
Spending years being haunted, having his mind read and experiencing weird physical phenomena at first hand drove him a bit mad. :lol:

 

[ramonmercado]

I come from a very very scientific background, and, until my own brush with the weird, had very little time for the 'nonsense' of the paranormal.

*nods*

The former Mr Snail, then a science teacher, had a similar attitude to the unknown.
Spending years being haunted, having his mind read and experiencing weird physical phenomena at first hand drove him a bit mad. :lol:

Hmmm, I bet you left him shell-shocked.

 

[tamyu]

I don`t have any memories of suddenly being aware, etc, like the OP. I do have a childhood memory of playing by myself and talking to myself either in another language or some foreign accent, and stopping myself because I could remember being told that I had to keep that a secret (particularly from parents)... And that it was something I wasn`t supposed to do this time.
If only I could remember now what language / accent it was.

saying that, I have distinct memories of childhood when i was certainly no older than 2 years, sometimes images from my own eyes, and sometimes as if from a 3rd person perspective. I can only suspect that the 3rd party ones are confabs from stories or something? or was I having OOB experences as a child?!?

I know exactly what you mean by this!
I have a very strong memory from when I was quite small, which I do not think is a confabulation as no one ever told me about it, or talked about it.
My mother`s boyfriend was tossing me up into the air in my grandparents` house, and just happened to do so under one of their large old chandeliers. It was huge, heavy, and had long brass spike looking things on the underside of it. One of these stuck into my head (not seriously, I assume, as I`m still alive now and I wasn`t taken to the hospital.)
When the event happened though, I was sure I was going to die because I believed I still had baby "soft spots" in my skull, and that they spike must have stuck into one.

Now, while everyone remembers the actual event, and did talk about it, it`s the aftermath that I remember in 3rd person. I can pretty confidently say that I barely remember actually being tossed up and hitting the thing, and the sketchy memory I do have is most likely false even though it is 1st person. Afterward though, I can remember very strongly being handed screaming to my mother, my grandmother leaping up and turning on the lamp on the table (which was rarely switched on) and being held down while my mother searched through my hair to find the actual injury, pulling tissues out of her bag to wipe it, etc. All of that is 3rd person, and I can`t really confirm it as no one really remembers me doing anything other than crying after it happened.

I don`t think it`s an OOB, but instead a memory of a memory (repeat) of a 1st person event that was changed somewhere along the line to 3rd person.
Thing is, I can`t ever remember it being in 1st person - but I can remember puzzling over the fact that it was in 3rd person.

 

[Corthos]

I really love this thread. I have one early memory from around 1 & 1/2 or 2 or so, of being picked up out of a playpen or something similar by my uncle, who died when i was about 2 1/2. I don't think it's a false memory because no one ever told me anything about the event, and it's just sort of a flash, there's no context around it. Another memory which is almost certainly a false memory constructed from stories is from when i was also about 2 years old helping my then 7 year old sister pick my mom up off the floor & help her into a chair after she fell. I can picture the scene clearly, but as it is a story I heard many times as a child, I'm fairly certain I just built the image in my mind to fit the story.

As for the 'coming aware' memories, I don't have any of those, but reading about them sort of makes me feel like I had one at one point, kind of a memory of a memory that I lost a long time ago. It's like I can almost remember remembering something.

 

[Dingo667]

As for the 'coming aware' memories, I don't have any of those, but reading about them sort of makes me feel like I had one at one point, kind of a memory of a memory that I lost a long time ago. It's like I can almost remember remembering something.

This is what I tried to say, but not as well. When I read this thread, something deeply hidden seemed to be retrieved. Now the feeling is different to other memories that you "may" have had, this one seems almost certain but forgotten. Thanks for that. Maybe we are not supposed to remember these but thanks to the internet and more people talking to each other, we might have found something here. What a brilliant thread.

 

[luvpixie]

I remember sitting in my highchair eating a boiled egg and soldiers when the song Down Town by Petula Clark came on the radio.
I was singing along to it when my mother came in looking astonished at how word perfect I was......I was about 20 months old at the time.
Her reaction sort of made me `awake` to what I was doing and I realised I wasn`t aware of even ever having heared that song before...or any other song for that matter.
From that point onwards I seem to have developed an almost photographic memory for songs.
I hear them once and by the second hearing I know almost every single word.
My memory for anything else like names,phone numbers,directions etc is quite poor by contrast.

:?

Just thought I`d mention it.

 

[staticgirl]

My first memories are:

Being held by my mother> I have no idea how old I was as I had no concept of time. When held at the hip my head was level with her boob. I felt a bit insecure as she was holding me with one arm. I couldn't see where I was because her body was in the way. I clung on for dear life.

The rubber taste of the teat on the baby bottle> YUK! Once it wore off, I liked chewing it though because it was almost like bounciness in the mouth and it made squidgy noises. Mum says she switched me from breast to bottle because of the chewing issue.

Getting my foot trapped in the bars of my cot/crib> I was getting a bit big for it and my feet are pressed against the bars. I liked the feel of the feet against the bars and I poked them through the gaps. Then I got them stuck. Now I know I must have tried to withdraw my feet back into the cot whilst they were slightly rotated, blocking the gap between bars. Then I did not know this and I panicked. I can remember whimpering a bit and then calming down. There came a sense of being able to figure this out and eventually I got my legs back in the cot. There were no words in my head, just feelings and trying to work things out on my own. Why I didn't start crying for mum and dad I do not know. Maybe I didn't have reasoning skills good enough.

I wouldn't have said I was that aware of myself as a person at this age, I don't recall having thoughts in a language. I think I was just aware of my feet and my hands and physical sensations. Maybe I was more like a problem solving animal at that time - that crow who can make tools to fish things out of jars comes to mind. These were all quite scary events and I assume that's why they stuck.

My next memories are when I was 3 and self aware. A right little madam too. I definitely knew English by then!

edit: It was quite hard to describe these things in words given there were none in my memories. I feel I haven't been able to convey the fullness of the sensations.

 

[LaurenChurchill]

I have a recollection of lying in my bed, staring up at the ceiling, and trying to think about what it would feel like to not be alive. It was like I'd suddenly realised how real everything was around me, and couldn't work out what 'none of it' would be like.

I must have been 3 1/2 or younger, because that room was given to my younger brother a few months before he was born.

 

[GNC]

I was the opposite, when I was little I would regularly think how weird it was to be alive as if it wasn't real somehow. Difficult to describe.

 

[_Cobh_]

What an interesting thread, and so many varied responses that I can identify with!

I want to address a few things, but I'll start with the voice thing. I didn't have the 'adult' voice when I was a child, but for the first time in my life I had a voice saying phrases in my head when I reached about the age of 40-41. It only happened on 3 occasions, and the first occasion was as I was waking up one morning, and a phrase was going over and over in my head. As I was becoming more properly awake I realised it wasn't a thought - does that make sense? I couldn't work out if it was a man's or a woman's voice, but I knew it wasn't mine..I hope others will understand what I mean by that.

And because the phrase was precise but used words I didn't completely understand, I set about trying to discover what the unknown word meant, and it sent my life on a different course as I discovered subjects I hadn't pursued before. On the 2nd occasion, I understood the words, and the 'message' was reassuring. The last occasion was again a phrase I didn't totally understand, and was in the form of a question and answer, but the answer was wrong, and I knew it! So I investigated the term being used, and again I discovered something that I would never have become aware of without this message.

On each occasion, the phrase was in my head as I was rousing from sleep, and kept repeating until I became conscious and aware of it. I have often wondered if it was in fact someone from 'the other side' like a relative trying to give me a nudge in a certain direction, or what else but of course I really don't know, and reading through this thread, I can't help but think it may be realted to the voices others have referred to; that they also knew were not their own?

I'll move onto the next point in a separate post.

 

[Vardoger]

I got memories which probably goes back to before my three year birthday, but are not lucky enough to remember my first self awareness.

 

[IamSundog]

Quoth MachineElf:

I suspect there is some kind of meta-awareness, and that is what is behind the non-childlike understanding in the above statements. Young children have concrete understanding of the world, and they tend not to be able to objectify their own experience in the manner described above. It leaves me wondering whether there is a meta-mind (for want of a better term) which is with us when we are very young, but which becomes experientially diminished as we grow into awareness of ourselves as a biological being, located in time and space. As certain structures in the brain come online, this meta-awareness (or meta-mind) disappears into the background, behind sensory processing and thought, and behind concrete thinking appropriate to our developmental age.

I don't actually doubt the existence of something like a meta-mind, but I dont see it as necessary to explain these early childhood epiphanies. The way I see it, infants have no self-awareness and adults do. At some point in development, self-awareness emerges. I would not be surprised if it does so very suddenly, even instantly. Self-awareness must be an cognitive capability that "sits" on top of many lesser capabilities, and we are clearly wired for it, so as soon as all of the lesser capabilities are mature enough it might click on all at once. I've had the experience of laborously practicing something for hours/days and then suddenly finding I'm able to do it without conscious effort - and there is a sort of "clicking on" that happens. If self-awareness is similar, I can see that it would be a memorable experience!

 

[MachineElf]

Quoth MachineElf:

I suspect there is some kind of meta-awareness, and that is what is behind the non-childlike understanding in the above statements. Young children have concrete understanding of the world, and they tend not to be able to objectify their own experience in the manner described above. It leaves me wondering whether there is a meta-mind (for want of a better term) which is with us when we are very young, but which becomes experientially diminished as we grow into awareness of ourselves as a biological being, located in time and space. As certain structures in the brain come online, this meta-awareness (or meta-mind) disappears into the background, behind sensory processing and thought, and behind concrete thinking appropriate to our developmental age.

I don't actually doubt the existence of something like a meta-mind, but I dont see it as necessary to explain these early childhood epiphanies. The way I see it, infants have no self-awareness and adults do. At some point in development, self-awareness emerges. I would not be surprised if it does so very suddenly, even instantly. Self-awareness must be an cognitive capability that "sits" on top of many lesser capabilities, and we are clearly wired for it, so as soon as all of the lesser capabilities are mature enough it might click on all at once. I've had the experience of laborously practicing something for hours/days and then suddenly finding I'm able to do it without conscious effort - and there is a sort of "clicking on" that happens. If self-awareness is similar, I can see that it would be a memorable experience!

Okay, I hear you, but it seems unlikely to me that self awareness could be aware of non self awareness and thus have something to contrast itself with, especially at the ages described ...know what I mean? I will certainly grant that an existing state of self awareness could be cognizant of the gaining of faculties, and that is what we are reading in some of the stories above. But the complexity of understanding (non concrete and therefore not childlike at all) in some stories suggests something more 'meta' to me. The only way we could dismiss it is to say it was a later confabulation.

 

[special_farces]

I started reading this thread the other evening but broke off half way through. Luckily I remembered to come back and finish it. One thing I thought I'd throw in. Myself and a group of friends were having a 'what's the earliest memory you can remember' conversation, and one woman claimed she could remember nothing from before she was around eight! As most people were claiming at least fragments of memory from birth to five, this seemed a bit odd. When questioned, she said she had a very normal happy childhood, did no think there was anything she would want to forget, and thought we were all a bit odd for recalling being small children. Pity no one asked her about the exact nature of her first memory. No one there talked about a moment of 'self enlightenment'.
On the subject of the reliability of memory I think we have to be very cautious. I think our brain's store memories very accurately (within the limitations of perception), the problems begin with the conscious processes of recall and representation. And that is true for all memories, either being asked to recall witnessing an accident, undergoing some form of therapy to recall a personal traumatic incident, or trying to remember where the house keys are (hint: the boggarts got them, but they'll be back on the kitchen table in ten minutes).

 

[rynner2]

On the subject of the reliability of memory I think we have to be very cautious. I think our brain's [sic] store memories very accurately (within the limitations of perception), the problems begin with the conscious processes of recall and representation.

This statement gives me problems!

How can you know that "our brains store memories very accurately" if there's no way to accurately recall them, or somehow prove it independently?

It's a bit like saying "I'm sure I have a million pounds in the bank, only I don't seem to be able to withdraw it!"

 

[IamSundog]

Quoth MachineElf:

Okay, I hear you, but it seems unlikely to me that self awareness could be aware of non self awareness and thus have something to contrast itself with, especially at the ages described ...know what I mean? I will certainly grant that an existing state of self awareness could be cognizant of the gaining of faculties, and that is what we are reading in some of the stories above. But the complexity of understanding (non concrete and therefore not childlike at all) in some stories suggests something more 'meta' to me. The only way we could dismiss it is to say it was a later confabulation.

Well as I see it, given that even very young children have memory, than assuming that self-awareness does click on suddenly, all that needs to happen is that they are aware that their experience of consciousness is suddenly very different than it was a minute ago. i.e. I see my house and my toys and my family members, they all look the same, but wow I sure am looking at everything differently, suddenly I'm realizing that there's a *me* that's seperate from them, and not just an ego-less undifferentiated flow of events and sensations. I hear my mother's voice, and she's a familiar entity and I know I've been hearing her for as far back as I can remember, but now I'm suddenly hearing her from a new perspective. (Not in so many words of course). So yes, self-awareness would be aware of non-self-awareness insofar as feeling the change.

I would concede that it would be very hard for the child, or for any of us, to remember what non-self-awareness actually is like.

As for the accuracy of early memories I have one anecdote: Last year I travelled through Pittsburgh and went to visit the house where I lived as a young child. We moved from there when I was 5 and I've never gone back in the 49 years since (there I've given it away...). The current residents were nice and allowed me in and let me walk around the back yard and the field/woods beyond. Everything looked incredibly much smaller, but my memories of the layout and appearance were absolutely accurate. Especially I was surprised to find the little stream, and how it pooled in a place where the land dipped down, were really as I remembered them. Granted, memories of events may be much more malleable thaan memories of places.

 

[escargot]

This R4 programme -
21:00
Leading Edge
19 February 2009
Geoff Watts with the latest stories from the world of science

dealt with many of the ideas discussed in this thread.

Especially -

Childhood Memory: Karl Sabbagh
Just how reliable is our memory and just how far back into our childhood can we reliably remember? Geoff talks to Karl Sabbagh, author of Remembering Our Childhood: How Memory Betrays Us about the reliability of childhood and adult memory.

As a criminologist, I found this bit even more interesting -

Memory in the dock
Martin Conway from the University of Leeds discusses recent guidelines issued by the British Psychological Society, developed to give people who work in law with the latest scientific evidence advice about memory and the potential pitfalls of using evidence based on memory in the courts.

It's on Listen Again too.
Lordy, I love the BBC.

 

[special_farces]

This statement gives me problems!

I knew that glib statement was a bad idea! I'll try and unravel my thoughts on this. Using the million pound bank balance analogy, the point is you can often withdraw it. In fact it is staggering what can be recalled. And I'm not talking about those who have trained their minds to pull off 'tricks' such as being able to recall Pi to the nth number, or rare individuals who can flip through a telephone directory then recite it. We meet someone once. A year later we meet them again. You will know to some degree you have met them before. It might be just 'a feeling', it might be instant recognition with a potted biography.
Or you decide to phone a relative you haven't spoken to in months, and remember the number. Or at least you remember its written down. Or that you have a relative.
If you have no relative, your memory is playing up!
My original brief statement is full of holes. The saving of memories at the instant of experience can be affected by environmental and biological factors. And the brain favors novelty which might attach undue significance to one element in a memory. It also fills in detail assumed to be familiar, therefore potentially corrupting a memory and indeed perception. However, overall, memories are saved reliably. Otherwise when I came to turn the computer on this morning I'd have looked for it in the garden.
Getting memories back out though.... you have to involve the tricky (and trickster) 'self', the 'I' that is dealing with the memory. And the self might not want that memory, or can not understand it, or can not be bothered fishing it out. Or when asked about the memory by someone else, it might just plain lie.
There are still plenty of holes, which I'm still thinking about.

Anyways - I remember I have to be somewhere else......... (late again).

 

[StormMagic]

I have an excellent memory, particularly from my very early childhood. My earliest memory is sitting in my cot, playing with the toys that dangled from the bars and being interested in the different sounds I could make. I worked out once that my first memories date back to when I was nine or ten months old, which was when I first began to talk. Perhaps our awareness of ourselves is tied in with the acquisition of language?

For me there was no sudden moment of awareness, where I suddenly became aware of my self.