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OOPArts: Out Of Place Artefacts & Archaeological Erratics

blessmycottonsocks said:
... Todays though, featured pics of some strange little figurines from the Mexican Remojadas culture (c. 100 BC to 800 AD.) which could possibly be described as OOPARTS.
A lizardman, or human wearing a lizard-like outfit, riding on an oval vehicle (or flattened turtle) whilst looking through binoculars.

View attachment 10890

... I don't want to come over all Erich Von Dänikeny, but would be interested in forumists' views on these.
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The Remojadas culture was a component of the vaguely-defined Veracruz cultural complex that pre-dated the Aztecs by up to a millennium and had closer affinities with the Mayans.

They were prolific producers of sculptural ceramic figurines and artifacts. Many of these artifacts were dual purpose items that served as (musical) pipes, flutes, or whistles.

This first figure appears to be a Remojadas double whistle / pipes combo, like the example below ...

remojadas-dbl-pipes.jpg

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SOURCE: https://art.famsf.org/elaborate-double-whistle-2009196
 
That pic certainly looks more like a viable whistle.
So is the "lizard man" purely decorative ornamentation?
The "binoculars" the creature seems to be holding up to its eyes with its left arm in the earlier pic, don't appear to contain holes and so wouldn't be a functional part of any whistle.
 
blessmycottonsocks said:
... So is the "lizard man" purely decorative ornamentation?
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Given acceptance of the whistle (ocarina, pipes, etc.) attribution - yes.

Both examples illustrate a V-shaped double pipe / whistle atop which elaborate sculptural ornamentation sits.

There are lots of variations on this theme, most of which include a single whistle / pipe / whatever.

I posted that particular example because it was so similar to the first one you posted.

NOTE: The up-curving 'tail' portion is listed as a feathered staff associated with the bird-man figure. It's apparently not a hollow piece involved in the artifact's sonic capabilities.


blessmycottonsocks said:
The "binoculars" the creature seems to be holding up to its eyes with its left arm in the earlier pic, don't appear to contain holes and so wouldn't be a functional part of any whistle.
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Agreed ... In both these cases, the figure(s) atop the double whistle are simply decorative.

There are other Remojadas whistles / pipes in which the prominent decorative body is an integral part of the hollow sound-generating structure.
 
EnolaGaia said:
Given acceptance of the whistle (ocarina, pipes, etc.) attribution - yes.

Both examples illustrate a V-shaped double pipe / whistle atop which elaborate sculptural ornamentation sits.

There are lots of variations on this theme, most of which include a single whistle / pipe / whatever.

I posted that particular example because it was so similar to the first one you posted.

NOTE: The up-curving 'tail' portion is listed as a feathered staff associated with the bird-man figure. It's apparently not a hollow piece involved in the artifact's sonic capabilities.




Agreed ... In both these cases, the figure(s) atop the double whistle are simply decorative.

There are other Remojadas whistles / pipes in which the prominent decorative body is an integral part of the hollow sound-generating structure.
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In which case, I am still left wondering what the artist's motivation was in intricately depicting a figure holding a twin-tubed device up to its eyes? If the "binoculars" were in or below the figure's mouth, we would accept them as simple Pan pipes, but at eye-level, the device does look very anachronistic.
 
blessmycottonsocks said:
In which case, I am still left wondering what the artist's motivation was in intricately depicting a figure holding a twin-tubed device up to its eyes? If the "binoculars" were in or below the figure's mouth, we would accept them as simple Pan pipes, but at eye-level, the device does look very anachronistic.
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The figure isn't holding the 'binoculars', and they're arguably not even in the figure's line of sight.

Here are two additional photos of that particular object (which, by the way, was listed as a 'Double Flute' and sold through Sotheby's in 2003) ...

4cb2f525b048fec19cc961676f322329.jpg

tr55d31a68.jpg

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As you can see, the 'binoculars' aren't even positioned so as to be visible from the eye sockets.

My guess is that they represent stylized knobs, horns, or similar organic extensions to the figure's crested nose / beak / proboscis / whatever.
 
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Has anyone translated the text on it ?

INT21
 
INT21 said:
Has anyone translated the text on it ?
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I'm confident the answer is 'No'. For one thing, the Mayans are the only pre-Columbian Mesoamerican culture known (or, perhaps more accurately - admitted so far ... ) to have a full-fledged writing system. The Veracruz cultural complex preceded the Mayans, and it remains unclear whether any of the Veracruz sub-societies achieved a full-blown writing system.

In any case, there's no 'text' per se - the known Mayan system and the possibilities suspected to date are all pictographic in nature.
 
Jim said:
Good thing the graph doesn't include WW2. Then the 21st century portion would likely be indiscernible.

Concerning the Gõbekli Tepe site. Turkey has the best military in the Mideast (next to Israel). Despite problems in nearby Syria, Iraq and Iran, Turkeys repressive government is also the most stable government in the Mideast, next to Isreal. I believe by and far the site is safe.
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Dearest Mater always recommended a benign dictatorship for stable governance...The only one in the family who approved of That Bloody Woman (Fathers opinion - he preferred not to even mention her name).
 
blessmycottonsocks said:
As a Pinterest member, I get those 'Pins you may be interested in" emails. They're mostly bunkum, featuring unfeasibly large skeletons or poorly-Photoshopped cryptids.

Today's though, featured pics of some strange little figurines from the Mexican Remojadas culture (c. 100 BC to 800 AD.) which could possibly be described as OOPARTS.
A lizardman, or human wearing a lizard-like outfit, riding on an oval vehicle (or flattened turtle) whilst looking through binoculars.

View attachment 10890

And a guy in some sort of suit with a stylised crocodile helmet.

View attachment 10891

I don't want to come over all Erich Von Dänikeny, but would be interested in forumists' views on these.
Click to expand...


That wee beasty looks as if it has a 'suit' on, which would account possibly for a 'visual enhancement' section to the 'helmet'.

I have been wrong before, and I could be incorrect now - any opinions?
 
blessmycottonsocks said:
Was just looking at other Remojadas artefacts and see that the famous "handbag", that features everywhere in sacred art from Göbekli Tepe (see other thread) to Assyria, India and even Indonesia, also popped up in ancient Mexico:
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To me it looks like a basket - maybe for the special herbs or mushrooms that Shamans used.

I don't know, I don't find anything OOP about these figures - they just look like Shamans to me.
 
Kingsize Wombat said:
To me it looks like a basket - maybe for the special herbs or mushrooms that Shamans used.

I don't know, I don't find anything OOP about these figures - they just look like Shamans to me.
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All down to interpretation I guess.
Must admit that my first thought, when seeing the lizard man with the binoculars and the curiously caricatured human figure wearing the strange suit with the large-jawed helmet, was that these figurines from almost 2 millennia ago, wouldn't look out of place as Star Wars or Star Trek collectibles.
 
blessmycottonsocks said:
All down to interpretation I guess.
Must admit that my first thought, when seeing the lizard man with the binoculars and the curiously caricatured human figure wearing the strange suit with the large-jawed helmet, was that these figurines from almost 2 millennia ago, wouldn't look out of place as Star Wars or Star Trek collectibles.
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Frankly, humans aren't really very good at imagining non humans.
I mean, look at fantasy.
Humans but hairy. Or short. Or with long ears.
 
Shadowsot said:
Frankly, humans aren't really very good at imagining non humans.
I mean, look at fantasy.
Humans but hairy. Or short. Or with long ears.
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C S Lewis. I don't particularly enjoy his SF trilogy, but it does attempt to come up with some believable non-human races.

OOParts interest (or interested) me - I'm glad this got revived, though I can't think of any useful contribution to make!
 
blessmycottonsocks said:
All down to interpretation I guess.
Must admit that my first thought, when seeing the lizard man with the binoculars and the curiously caricatured human figure wearing the strange suit with the large-jawed helmet, was that these figurines from almost 2 millennia ago, wouldn't look out of place as Star Wars or Star Trek collectibles.
Click to expand...

Oh I get that. I'm just a bit wary of the whole "looks a bit like an astronaut, therefore ancient aliens" take on this.
 
Cochise said:
C S Lewis. I don't particularly enjoy his SF trilogy, but it does attempt to come up with some believable non-human races.

OOParts interest (or interested) me - I'm glad this got revived, though I can't think of any useful contribution to make!
Click to expand...
Oh I still have a soft spot for OOPARTS. But they tend to be pretty mundane.
 
blessmycottonsocks said:
Does the Antikithera mechanism still reign supreme?
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Eeeeeh. I don't really count that as an oopart. It's really cool, but it's not outside of what was possible for them to make. Even before it was shown to be definitely real. There was evidence from manuscripts and we knew the Romans had good knowledge of gears.
I see OOParts as being something totally out of place and time.
 
Shadowsot said:
Eeeeeh. I don't really count that as an oopart. It's really cool, but it's not outside of what was possible for them to make. Even before it was shown to be definitely real. There was evidence from manuscripts and we knew the Romans had good knowledge of gears.
I see OOParts as being something totally out of place and time.
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IMHO the term 'OOPArt' is, and always has been, so vaguely defined that it's not very useful beyond serving as a deceptively definitive label for unexpected evidence (and / or unexpected evidentiary circumstances) for which no definitive explanation is currently or prospectively available.

In other words, 'OOPArt' has been casually applied so often, and for so many different types of things, that it's difficult to claim the label connotes anything more than 'anomaly'.
 
For me, an OOPART should be something like the Roman coin found in Australia, not something that looks like Hollywood's idea of a spaceman.
 
GNC said:
For me, an OOPART should be something like the Roman coin found in Australia, not something that looks like Hollywood's idea of a spaceman.
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See to me that doesn't count. Simply because there's plenty of reasonable explanations for how it could get there without affecting what we currently know about the ancient world.
 
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Shadowsot said:
See to me that doesn't count. Simply because there's plenty of reasonable explanations for how it could get there without affecting what we currently know about the ancient world.
Click to expand...

But it is out of place. And an artefact. Not something Mayan that looks a bit like Greedo.
 
Shadowsot said:
Eeeeeh. I don't really count that as an oopart. It's really cool, but it's not outside of what was possible for them to make. Even before it was shown to be definitely real. There was evidence from manuscripts and we knew the Romans had good knowledge of gears.
I see OOParts as being something totally out of place and time.
Click to expand...

But when the Antikithera mechanism was first analysed and reconstructed, no-one initially believed it could be over 2,000 years old, because it had mechanical properties resembling Victorian chronographs.
Now that it has been dated with reasonable confidence to c. 200 BC, we are obliged to accept that the ancient Greeks were indeed capable of such technology. So, arguably, it was an OOPART initially, but loses that status following more detailed and expert analysis.
Bit like Göbekli Tepe, which was initially thought to be way beyond the capabilities of Epipalaeolithic hunter-gatherers.
 
bmcs,

..
Does the Antikithera mechanism still reign supreme?.

Does for me.

Sorry, Shadowsot, but the belief/evidence that the technology was fairly common at the time just doesn't stack up.

INT21

It
 
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