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Out Of Body Experiences (OBEs / OOBEs)

There would seem to be some crossover here with the book I'm currently reading, about NDEs, called 'After', by Dr Bruce Greyson. Worth a read.
 
catseye said:
There would seem to be some crossover here with the book I'm currently reading, about NDEs, called 'After', by Dr Bruce Greyson. Worth a read.
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In Dehaene's "Consciousness and the Brain" he discusses how OBE's can be induced with the use of transcranial magnetic stimulation and how hidden 'objects' (like on high shelves) are not detectable while the subject is in the 'OBE' state - what they 'see' is consistent with what they can see/infer from their normal perspective.
 
Coal said:
In Dehaene's "Consciousness and the Brain" he discusses how OBE's can be induced with the use of transcranial magnetic stimulation and how hidden 'objects' (like on high shelves) are not detectable while the subject is in the 'OBE' state - what they 'see' is consistent with what they can see/infer from their normal perspective.
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And yet hidden objects are reported to be visible in some OBEs during NDEs.

This suggests to me that the magnetic stimulation is producing an OBE-like event that is not an OBE.
 
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SimonBurchell said:
And yet hidden objects are reported to be visible in some OBEs during NDEs.

This suggests to me that the magnetic stimulation is producing an OBE-like event that is not an OBE.
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Your second statement assumes the first is true...

...can you direct me to the references/work has the reported OBE's during NDE's?
 
Coal said:
Your second statement assumes the first is true...

...can you direct me to the references/work has the reported OBE's during NDE's?
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The case I was particularly thinking of is in Ian Wilson's The After Death Experience pp157-8. Social worker Kimberly Clark of the University of Washington, Seattle gives the account of a lady who had a cardiac arrest, went out of body, and saw a tennis shoe on a ledge several stories up. Clark went outside to look and found it very difficult to see from ground level, in the end she pressed her face to the window glass in each patient room on the 3rd floor, until she was able to find it and recover it, it was just as described by the experiencer. The account is cited to:

Kimberly Clark, 'Clinical Interventions with Near-Death Experiencers', in Bruce Greyson and Charles P. Flynn (eds), The Near-Death Experience: Problems, Prospects, Perspectives Springfield, Ill, Charles C. Thomas, 1984.

However, the NDE literature is replete with OBE experiencers seeing things they could not possibly have known.
 
When I was a lot younger OOBEs/astral travel were my paranormal holy grail. If I could manage to have an OOBE on demand I would know that anything was possible, life after death being the big ticket item.
I had a few dreams where I had an OOBE that involved other people who claimed to have similar dreams at the same time, but little to demonstrate any real proof.
I also spent months as a kid/youth in a body temperature room, nearly naked, laying either on a comfy bed or a deep pile carpet, with headphones on to eliminate all external sound and tried to launch onto the astral. All I ever achieved was the feeling that one shoulder was lifting off. Like most things paranormal, I view my youthful belief in OOBEs with a large pinch of grown up cynicism and am amazed at my immature gullibility.
 
SimonBurchell said:
The case I was particularly thinking of is in Ian Wilson's The After Death Experience pp157-8. Social worker Kimberly Clark of the University of Washington, Seattle gives the account of a lady who had a cardiac arrest, went out of body, and saw a tennis shoe on a ledge several stories up. Clark went outside to look and found it very difficult to see from ground level, in the end she pressed her face to the window glass in each patient room on the 3rd floor, until she was able to find it and recover it, it was just as described by the experiencer. The account is cited to:

Kimberly Clark, 'Clinical Interventions with Near-Death Experiencers', in Bruce Greyson and Charles P. Flynn (eds), The Near-Death Experience: Problems, Prospects, Perspectives Springfield, Ill, Charles C. Thomas, 1984.

However, the NDE literature is replete with OBE experiencers seeing things they could not possibly have known.
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Thank you. I can't find one corroborating account of this now legendary NDE; all accounts trace back to what Kimberly Clarke said. Do you know of any?
 
Coal said:
Thank you. I can't find one corroborating account of this now legendary NDE; all accounts trace back to what Kimberly Clarke said. Do you know of any?
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What do you mean by corroborating account?

The incident is detailed in the online PSI Encylopedia as follows:

Tennis Shoe​

Kenneth Ring and Evelyn Elsaesser Valarino discuss the 1977 case of a US migrant worker named Maria, who was admitted to the cardiac ward of Harborview Medical Center in Seattle following a heart attack.6 Three days later Maria had a second attack. She experienced an OBE, during which she observed her resuscitation from above and saw how printouts spilled out of the machines that were monitoring her bodily functions and onto the floor, even ending up under her bed. Amongst other things, she saw a man’s left tennis shoe located on a ledge outside a window on the third floor.

Following her resuscitation Maria described her OBE, including the appearance and location of the shoe, to a social worker, Kimberly Clark Sharp, with the help of gestures and facial expressions, as she spoke little English. She told Sharp that the tennis shoe was dark blue, that the material was worn over the little toe, and that one lace end was tucked under the heel, and asked Sharp to look for it in order to confirm her experience. Sharp finally found the shoe and retrieved it from the window ledge, finding Maria’s description to be correct.

Sceptical investigators Hayden Ebbern, Sean Mulligan, and Barry L Beyerstein had later argued that Maria could have obtained the information in a normal manner, picking up certain details consciously or unconsciously, such as by overhearing hospital personnel discussing the shoe, guessing other details.7 Sharp pointed out that Maria spoke very little English, certainly not at the level that would have been required to comprehend the details of such discussion, and other details contradicting the sceptics’ claims.8

The source footnotes 6, 7 and 8 are listed as "

 
"In all the cases, the paranormal aspect was directly corroborated by a third party, ranging from a partner, friend or relative, to a nurse or medical doctor. The authors excluded cases with a possible anomalous aspect if it was only confirmed by the persons who experienced the NDE and not by anyone else, or exclusively through the experiencers themselves. Confirmation by a third party refutes the claim that such testimonies are uncorroborated anecdotes lacking scientific evidential value."
 
This thread reminded me of the book ”Seeing Myself” by Dr Susan Blackmore.
She had an OBE at 19 years old that changed the direction of her life, however many, many years later on she realised that what she had seen during the OBE didnt match with reality.
I bought the book after hearing her story on a podcast but it ended up on a bookshelf unread. Today I tracked it down on the back of this thread and will start reading it in bed tonight.

T63
 
Tempest63 said:
This thread reminded me of the book ”Seeing Myself” by Dr Susan Blackmore.
She had an OBE at 19 years old that changed the direction of her life, however many, many years later on she realised that what she had seen during the OBE didnt match with reality.
I bought the book after hearing her story on a podcast but it ended up on a bookshelf unread. Today I tracked it down on the back of this thread and will start reading it in bed tonight.

T63
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Was it a good book ?
 
Just had a lovely taxi ride (not) back from the shops and was talking about all things about conspiracies/strange etc and I asked the Taxi driver who was about 55-60 but looked much older and very over weight if he believes in the Afterlife and he replied 'No as he said he died 3 times and didn't see the Afterlife' and I said 'what about people who have OBE/NDE and his reply was ' Your energy survives death and then disappears'.
And a Bar Humbug to him :(
 
I remember having an Oobe back in the early 1960s i was around 9/10yrs old I was at home in bed suffering from a bout of Measles,it was a winters late afternoon the Bedroom light was on, I recall looking up at the Lampshade and in a flash I was up at ceiling level looking down at myself in bed I looked around the room I was above the Wardrobe and then looked down at my model Railway layout, the Lampshade was on my right hand side I could easily have touched it.In a flash I was back in bed looking up at the Lampshade, I had been quite ill at the time but strangely enough I started feeling much within a day or so of my Oobe.
 
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