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People Who Feel Wrong

The alternative being sadly, an institution or suicide.

Yup. Haven't got the figures handy but suicide is much more likely in autistics than in NTs. The current best estmiate is, I think our average age at death is about 15 years less than the NT group, and much of that is meant to be suicie and lack of access to health services, especially mental health services. (clinician, anecdotal).
 
I don't find it brave. It's a necessity. Not a choice.
That's a rather ambiguous comment, does that mean that you think that there should be no leeway for an autistic person, when they interact with other people, or do you think that autistic people don't have any option other than to attempt to function in a world that they don't understand?
 
Not speaking for @brownmane but my autistic take on it isn't either of your possibilties @Sogna :)

#1 I can't parse it as this, sorry, probably just me.

#2 I don't see any reference to us not understanding the world. It's like being left-handed: more and more tools etc come in a left-handed version but it's still a world set up by and for right-handers. Nothing to do with not understanding anything. If you don't luck out as I (and many others but still a minority) have done then the other-handed-ness of the world can break you.

If you are in the middle of the ocean then your only choices are sink or swim. It's not brave, it's just the way it is. Many of us choose to sink and that too can be a very brave decision.
 
This question of 'bravery' meaning 'survival' has often puzzled me. When they show programmes lauding the 'bravery' of a child - usually giving that child an award - 'poor little Edward was born with no arms, legs or head but has gone to school every day and now has seven GCSEs and is going on to train as a vet' kind of thing.... What alternative did 'poor little Edward' have? He wasn't 'brave' or 'plucky', he was born with a lot of disadvantages and has gone on to do well despite them. That's not bravery, that's solid parenting and excellent school provision.

But they aren't getting the award, are they?
 
I suppose the manner in which one handles a condition such as autism or a physical disability or a disease can be considered bravery. One can be in a wheelchair for six months or longer because of an injury and feel terrible (in pain, worried, bored, etc.) and be a total pain in the arse to everyone trying to help. Or you can indulge in the despair, worry, etc. when alone and try and be cheerful when with others.

Bravery where for instance one chooses to run into a burning building to save someone is a bit different as there is an element of choice.
 
That is what I would term bravery. Living with a condition isn't brave, it's living.
But in that scenario couldn't there be an element of "Could I live with myself afterwards if I don't run into the building and try to save someone"? It is still a choice which having a condition isn't -but is it somehow less brave than before?
 
But in that scenario couldn't there be an element of "Could I live with myself afterwards if I don't run into the building and try to save someone"? It is still a choice which having a condition isn't -but is it somehow less brave than before?
But the choice was made to run into the building. Nobody will round up all the bystanders and shout at them for NOT running into the building. The personal choice - self over other people's safety - is what makes it brave, I think.
 
I think it can be considered brave to take the option of trying, although the chances are that you will fail, or be misunderstood, rather than retreating from the world.
What about all those people living with invisible conditions? Illnesses or disabilities that maybe nobody other than their nearest and dearest knows they have? They have no allowances made for them or understanding given to them, and I think I'd call them braver than those living with very visible conditions of the sort where people offer them seats on buses or make adaptations to the working environment to facilitate their condition.
 
I think it can be considered brave to take the option of trying, although the chances are that you will fail, or be misunderstood, rather than retreating from the world.
True, but perhaps the ultimate retreat from the world is suicide and that can be a difficult if not brave decision.

I once heard from a doctor who said that a severely physically disabled person had approached him a number of times to provide him with the method of "quietly disposing of himself". The doctor refused but a while later learned that the person had managed to douse themselves in some sort of accelerant and set light to themselves achieving their objective in a truly painful and horrible way. That took a sort of courage as did waiting for a time when they were as sure as possible that no one else would be caught in the fire. It changed the doctor's view on properly supervised euthanasia.
 
What about all those people living with invisible conditions? Illnesses or disabilities that maybe nobody other than their nearest and dearest knows they have? They have no allowances made for them or understanding given to them, and I think I'd call them braver than those living with very visible conditions of the sort where people offer them seats on buses or make adaptations to the working environment to facilitate their condition.
Having my sort of mind I always contrast the Hollywood scene where the hero is learning to take their first steps after a terrible accident and surgery, surrounded by friends yelling encouragement; with the poor sod trying to "go" for the first time after a piles operation. Would a set of friends standing round the loo yelling "Go on, you can do it." help or not?
 
Having my sort of mind I always contrast the Hollywood scene where the hero is learning to take their first steps after a terrible accident and surgery, surrounded by friends yelling encouragement; with the poor sod trying to "go" for the first time after a piles operation. Would a set of friends standing round the loo yelling "Go on, you can do it." help or not?
I remember back in the good old days of the nineties, the sometimes scurrilous "Loaded" (for men who should know better) ran a first-person article from the point of view of a fella who'd had a painful and embarrassing accident while on holiday. He admitted he'd been a little bit too pissed to go ski-ing and he brought it on himself and the accident could have been avoided.

but he somehow contrived to hit a slalom pole or something, just so, and the broken sharp end went through both buttocks and "disrupted" his rectal orifice. The hospital treating the injury and stitching him up were absolutely firm in their insistence that to prove there were no complications, he "squeezed one out" under medical supervision. I recall the correspondent said this was agonisingly painful and, necessarily, done in public.
 
Plato (using the mouthpiece of a fictional Socrates) questioned the virtue of courage. As most ancient philosophers did, he questioned every assertion without coming to a conclusion. (Look for Plato's Laches and the definition of courage)
After consideration, I'd make the following definitions: courage is following a hazardous action regardless of knowing potential dangerous outcomes. Bravery is meeting an 'apparently' hazardous situation with fortitude. Foolhardy is performing a hazardous action, regardless of risk or outcome. How you act when confronted by a situation that you have no control over isn't (to me) brave or courageous but it's a grace or dignity of personality.
Anyhoooo ...
People who feel wrong?
Socrates. He always ask questions, challenged views, posed hypothetical situations ... but never stated what his own point of view was. It's known he asserted the difference between factual knowledge and truthful opinion, the test was on the opinion to discover fact ... but he just seems to me a little bit too snide. And irritating.
 
Speaking as a veteran of many childbearings, I can attest that there is an immediate postpartum stage where a lady might wish to manually grip and secure the entire undercarriage when contemplating defaecation. :eek:

This is scary but normal, and many of us willingly do it all again. :nods:
 
Last weekend my youngest son attended the wedding of a woman that he's been friends with since his mid teens. It was her second wedding and while that's not unusual in itself, I have my doubts that this one will last. Her previous marriage fell apart when her husband left her and their child to live as a woman. Her new husband, a couple of years younger than her already has been unfaithful on a couple of occasions.
She has led a troubled life, but also seems to be one of those people that attracts trouble to them, no matter what opportunities come their way. She recently lost her job at a bank for taking too much time off work and although she has a wealthy, older relative who helps support her financially, she is always stumbling from one financial crisis to another.
I have always had a bad feeling around her, as though a dark cloud hangs over her head and can't foresee a good future for her.
People like that, particularly women, are usually so overwhelmed by life that they're unable to differentiate a way out from a way down. They get overwhelmed because they never learned the strategies needed to not only survive but thrive. They're what I call "the crackers" - they fall between the cracks and never seek or find help. Always a sad situation, but it'll never change unless they choose to.
 
Speaking as a veteran of many childbearings, I can attest that there is an immediate postpartum stage where a lady might wish to manually grip and secure the entire undercarriage when contemplating defaecation. :eek:

This is scary but normal, and many of us willingly do it all again. :nods:
This is the sort of thing we mere males very rarely get to hear and I thank you for the enlightenment.
 
If you have trouble interacting with people socially it can be brave to do so anyway, instead of avoiding them or getting someone else to do it.
However I think it is also people trying to put a positive spin on it, like when they say someone is "fighting" cancer instead of just having cancer.
 
That's a rather ambiguous comment, does that mean that you think that there should be no leeway for an autistic person, when they interact with other people, or do you think that autistic people don't have any option other than to attempt to function in a world that they don't understand?
I didn’t think it ambiguous. I was not referring specifically to people with autism. I was referring to the use of the word brave when people try to compliment others for living with something that they have never had a choice in, this can be any physical or mental challenge that comes to people in life.

I understand that people make these comments to others when they are trying to make a connection; however, imo, it prevents people from furthering their understanding of others who are different from them. My take on what is the unspoken message is “ you are brave, I could (or would) never do that and thank god that I don’t have to”. But the person in that situation, never had a choice. They are doing what they have to.

My personal, but inconsequential, example, I am left handed in a right handed world. I have some difficulty in using a manual can opener. I don’t know how to knit because my grandmother who tried to teach me was right handed. I am not brave for trying to overcome these difficulties, I have to overcome these to function in a right handed world.

Please don't take my comment as a personal affront. It was not intended in that way. It is only my thought on the use of the word "brave".

I work with people who have developmental challenges that are both physical and intellectual. I do not call them brave because of this. They are living as they are, the best they can. They have no choice in how they do this.

This is the original post by @catseye that started this conversation:

I have a regular customer who is on the autistic spectrum. I know this now, from having dealt with him for nearly ten years, but I can imagine that he gives some of the newer, younger members of staff some bad feelings, poor chap. He's obviously been having coaching in 'how to fit in with NTs', because he now does the 'approach till, switch on unnaturally wide smile for three seconds....count....count... switch it off and behave as usual'. The smile is unnatural because it's a learned thing not a natural 'I am happy to see you' smile, and it makes him look a bit like a ventriloquist's dummy. It's far more unnerving than when he just avoided all eye contact and stayed expressionless. But he's trying....
This is not bravery. It is a person who is trying to fit in, and rather than others learning how to help him feel comfortable in his community, he is still required to change himself. Others are not changing themselves. They don't see what is really wrong with their attitudes.
 
We would prefer it if this thread did not become another thread about autism and neurodiversity.

We're hoping to find time to transfer all the off-topic chat about jobs and colleagues and the state of the world, but we're now losing sight of the topic.

Try page 1 for inspiration and remember this is in the Fortean section.
 
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