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People Who Marry Ghosts In China

lordmongrove

Justified & Ancient
Joined
May 30, 2009
Messages
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So sad that this is the result of societal/cultural pressure, which categorises unmarried men and women as bringing shame on their families. A neat little way to get around it, without having to question or criticise the culture. Strange stuff!
 
So sad that this is the result of societal/cultural pressure, which categorises unmarried men and women as bringing shame on their families. A neat little way to get around it, without having to question or criticise the culture. Strange stuff!

It's simply a consequence of traditional Confucian culture. We should refrain to judge this with our modern Western eyes. The causes of this practice are literally ageless :

At the core of ancient Chinese religion is the cult of ancestors. Children worship their parents, first when they are alive, and then a second time, after they die, reverring them as "ancestors". People used to offer regular sacrifices and offerings to their dead parents. In exchange, these ancestors would warn and protect them, occasionally playing an intermediate role between them and the gods (who were in fact quite often themselves ancestors). Among other things, this tradition is at the source of most Chinese divination systems (such as the Yijing), but that's another story.

In this vision of the world, the worst "crime" an individual could commit would be NOT to reproduce. Because by failing to make babies, he would cut down his family line. As a consequence, all of his ancestors would be deprived of sacrifice, e.g of spiritual food.

These ancestors without posterity could thus be turned into malevolent (or at least unhappy) ghosts, forced to prey on the living to survive, for lack of other sustainance.

It is in order to avoid this that the Chinese developed an early obsession with marriage. Marriage keeps ancestors on the godly side while celibacy drives them to demonic states.

From this core value derive many weird practices. Symbolically marrying two deceased singles was a way to get them out of the celibacy danger zone, albeit lately. I suppose it was assumed that perhaps they would still be able to procreate in the afterlife ? At least, they wouldn't be alone and resentful ... In any case, there are lots of documented cases of this practice in the 19th and 20th century.

Marrying a living with a dead is a likely deviancy of this tradition. I doubt the traditional Chinese would have approved since love relationships between ghosts and living people are often considered dangerous for the living, with a risk of premature death.

I remember reading once a 20th century tale by a Hong Kong Feng Shui master about a young man who got in serious trouble after trying to revive a drowned girl found washed ashore on a HK beach. He could not revive her, but her ghost fell in love with the heroic young man, and he started to get health and relationship problems. The blind Feng Shui master found out the cause and had to exorcize him to save his life ...

So, to sum up : marrying two dead people = good idea. Marrying a dead with a living = trouble ahead.

Edited because my haunted phone makes me write Engrish/Chinglish/Frenchlich sentences.

And finally, I realize everything was already well explained in lord mongrove's quoted article. Shame on me !
 
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You are right, it makes a lot of cultural sense...neglected ancestors are a major social problem all over the Far East.

(That and foxes).

And the living marrying the dead could well be risky.

We should not view it as `weird` or `morbid`.
 
Worshipping ancestors, in my eyes - absurd.

Respecting their good deeds, praying for their departed souls, cleaning their graves - all very worthwhile.

Well, no offense intended, but that's culturally biased. From a strictly rational point of view, it is no better to pray for one's soul than to offer his spirit oranges and incense. We find it acceptable in the West because it fits our judeo-christian frame of mind, but essentially, for an external spectator from the planet Mars (or whatever other place), it might apear as equally nonsensical. What is a "soul" ? Why should it require us praying for him ? And what's a "prayer" ? Praying who / what ? And why this "prayer" to "something" should help in any way a departed "soul" ?

In judeo-christian lore, there is a whole religious system explaining that. So we find it obvious. But it is not.
 
Thinking about it ... The Catholic cult of "Saints" actually followed the same kind of logic as Chinese ancestor worship. You "pray" a departed person (the saint) to play the role of go-between between you and "God".

Of course, the saint is (rarely) an ancestor. His intercession is seeked because he's supposed closer to god. On the other hand, the Chinese "ancestor" might not be a saint, but, he's closer to the living person requesting assistance. One appeals to him because he feels closely connected.

Both approaches have their justifications.
 
Incense makes so much more sense than my Fathers keeping the Florist in business.

(But to be fair, he can afford it).
 
Well, no offense intended, but that's culturally biased. From a strictly rational point of view, it is no better to pray for one's soul than to offer his spirit oranges and incense. We find it acceptable in the West because it fits our judeo-christian frame of mind, but essentially, for an external spectator from the planet Mars (or whatever other place), it might apear as equally nonsensical. What is a "soul" ? Why should it require us praying for him ? And what's a "prayer" ? Praying who / what ? And why this "prayer" to "something" should help in any way a departed "soul" ?

In judeo-christian lore, there is a whole religious system explaining that. So we find it obvious. But it is not.

I do not have a Western Judeo-Christian point of view.

I have a Jewish point of view, which is not Western, Eastern, Northern or Southern.

It is Jewish.

And we do not worship human beings, alive or dead.

It is forbidden to us.

(And it makes no sense to me at all.)

We do not worship souls.

A Soul is your spiritual self, comprised of different parts.
It is the sense of consciousness, your intelligence, your identity in the deepest sense.

A Soul that is no longer alive in a human body still exists, and it can benefit by being prayed for, to ask G-D to judge it well.

Prayer is communicating with G-D.

We only worship G-D.
 
Cant recall the title, -a shame.

Written about thirty years back, a book connecting Jewish and Japanese spirituality.

Any one read it?
 
@Kondoru

Not heard of the book, but there are similarities so marked that my belief is one of the lost tribes made their way to Japan, where their descendants still live

1.) Phylacteries worn upon the forehead to pray.
As far as I know, only Judaism and Shinto use these.

2.) Mount Moriah

The Temples in Jerusalem were built on this mount.
There is a mountain in Japan by the same name, which is scared.

3.) The Zion Festival

To Jews this is now almost forgotten, but it was festival in the time of King David.
The Japanese still celebrate it.
 
Thinking about it ... The Catholic cult of "Saints" actually followed the same kind of logic as Chinese ancestor worship. You "pray" a departed person (the saint) to play the role of go-between between you and "God".

Of course, the saint is (rarely) an ancestor. His intercession is seeked because he's supposed closer to god. On the other hand, the Chinese "ancestor" might not be a saint, but, he's closer to the living person requesting assistance. One appeals to him because he feels closely connected.

Both approaches have their justifications.
I was raised as a Roman Catholic in the US. I never encountered what you have described. Perhaps it is a regional variation on RC. I was never taught a cult of saints; I was never taught that they played an intercessionary role between a person and God.

I was taught about the saints, what made them saints, what great examples they gave to us, and to meditate on these examples in order to incorporate that attribute into our own lives and behavior: to become saintlike ourselves.

I think that the living and dead, if they had ties of affection between them while both were alive, continue those ties on past the death of someone. So the living and dead can still take an interest in each other in a loving and healthy way, and help each other. The living can help the dead find peace through prayers directed at the healing of the dead person's weaknesses. The dead can encourage the living.

Three RC priests from my childhood saved my life and helped shape me into the person I am, even 50 years later. I have a real soft spot in my heart for people of any stripe who dedicate their lives to helping others. They are the real saints.
 
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I was raised as a Roman Catholic in the US. I never encountered what you have described. Perhaps it is a regional variation on RC. I was never taught a cult of saints; I was never taught that they played an intercessionary role between a person and God.

I was taught about the saints, what made them saints, what great examples they gave to us, and to meditate on these examples in order to incorporate that attribute into our own lives and behavior: to become saintlike ourselves.

I think that the living and dead, if they had ties of affection between them while both were alive, continue those ties on past the death of someone. So the living and dead can still take an interest in each other in a loving and healthy way, and help each other. The living can help the dead find peace through prayers directed at the healing of the dead person's weaknesses. The dead can encourage the living.

Three RC priests from my childhood saved my life and helped shape me into the person I am, even 50 years later. I have a real soft spot in my heart for people of any stripe who dedicate their lives to helping others. They are the real saints.

Although I neither believe nor disbelieve in "life after death", I somewhat feel the same.

I have met some wonderful beings in my life. I've also been privileged enough to encounter the teachings of long deceased "sages" ( that's how I see them). And sometimes strange things happen which incline me to think that there are deep bonds between the "living" and ... something else, perhaps the "dead", whatever that means, if by the way that means anything at all. So I like to think that beyond life and death, there are some invisible links between beings, and perhaps, between everything ... After all, what would we "be" without the rest of the world, without parents, teachers, friends, foes, and food !? It is only justice to aknowledge that whatever "dies" doesn't completely disappear. And it is healthy to honour what has made what we are possible. But forgive me. I am speaking gibberish.

Now, regarding the cult of saints as intercessors in Catholicism, I must admit that this is a trend which has significantly declined in most areas of the world since the Middle Ages. So I am not surprised to hear that it isn't a strong feature in US Catholicism.

Protestantism being historically strong in the USA and rather hostile to the cult of saints it might not have helped this tradition to flourish there, either.

However it was really a thing in Antiquity and the Middle Ages, in Europe. This explains why pilgrimages were so important then.

Originally, most local pilgrimages were indeed aimed at visiting the relics of a saint, in order to request his help to solve a problem (usually a health problem). According to the Church, the saint could help because he had direct access to God. So the pilgrims would ask for his "intercession", to get some relief from their pains.

The first Christian cemeteries were also probably influenced by this logic. If you visit the catacombs of Syracuse or Napoli, you'll notice that the first Christian tombs usually gathered around the tomb of a saint. According to the historians I've met there. It was a way for the recently deceased, to benefit from the patronage of their saintly neighbour, thus securing a better afterlife. "Intercession".

The same thing applies to the Virgin Mary. I vaguely remember some religious texts still in vogue among the "traditionalist" Catholics in France, where it is explicitly said that Jesus could only be reached through the intercession of his beloved mother. I don't remember if they got this from the Bible (this is doubtful) or from the revelations of some 19th century visionaries (in France, the 19th century saw a major upsurge of ladies having "visions" of Jesus or Mary. Most of the time, these visions had political overtones, because of the recent French Revolution, and the later Commune de Paris).

In any case, this gave rise to a saying mocking this principle of "intercession".

In French : "Mieux vaut s'adresser à Dieu qu'à ses saints". Which means "Better ask God (the boss) than his subordinates (in order to get some results). I don't know if you have the same saying in English. Probably ...
 
And it is healthy to honour what has made what we are possible. But forgive me. I am speaking gibberish.

Thanks for the lucid description of other histories and interpretations of RC beliefs. BTW, to write thoughtfully and lucidly of something, and then end the paragraph with a polite disavowel of the statement is very European, very 19th century.

I deduce a continental university professor..... Hmmmn Monsieur Poirot?

I also neither believe nor disbelieve, but rather accept the preponderance of evidence of the white crow variety.
 
I deduce a continental university professor..... Hmmmn Monsieur Poirot?
Oh ! I wish I was ... But unfortunately I yielded to my father's wishes and followed another path, at least for the time being.

This being said, this morning I was reading the autobiography of king James 1st of Aragon (Jaume the Conqueror, 1208 - 1276) and the narrator starts his book by explaining why he decided to write down his memories.

Here is a very poor translation of a section of this introduction, which illustrates the logic of "intercession" in the late 13th century : "Although my origins [e.g. bloodline] were good, in my works [e.g. actions, deeds] I needed some improvement, not for lack of faith in my Creator and His Works, nor for lack of prayers to His mother [the Virgin Mary] so that she may intercede with her Son so that He may forgive my faults toward Him ...." (source : "The Book of Deeds", James of Aragon)

It is simply an example among others of the "intercession" principle, as applied to the Virgin Mary, in ancient Roman Catholicism. But the same was true for "ordinary" saints (if the adjective "ordinary is relevant to qualify saintly figures !). As God was deemed too "high" for the common sinner, you had to pass through the intercession of a deceased human (a saint, the virgin) to get in touch with him.

Some (usually well learned clerics) found it convenient to rely directly on angels, but that was a rather slippery ground, safe perhaps for "Saint Michael", as it fell into unorthodox "magic" / nigromancy or, worse, heresy, with a distinct touch of hubris whenever prayers were traded with "commands".
 
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