Pirate Archetypes

A

Anonymous

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#1
Mods, feel free to move this to 'Chat' if it doesn't look Fortean enough, but I reckon it's to do with the way we view 'reality' and 'history' and suchlike.


I recently got invited to a fancy dress party where the theme of the evening was 'Pirates'. Accordingly, the other guests and I all dressed up in clothes we associated with pirates. My question is this: Where have these 'conventions' of how pirates supposedly dress come from? I have a horrible suspicion that they're all derived from fiction rather than fact...
I identified the following themes:

1) Exotic pet - Eg, parrot, monkey, etc.
Obviously, pirates would be keen to have exotic, hard-to-come-by animals as status symbols, but is there any real-life documentation of such pets? The only one I can think of is Long John Silver's parrot, Captain Flint, but he's a work of fiction. Was he based on a real pirate pet?

2) Wooden leg
Again, the fictional Silver is the only one I know about. Was he the archetype? Was there a significant number of real pirates with prostheses, relative to 'normal' sailors, or everyday folk, even?

3) Hook.
Fictitious Captain Hook had a hook for a hand, but did the trend start and end with him? Did he have any real-life precursors?

4) Skull-and-Crossbones flag
All fictional pirates hoist the 'Jolly Roger', but why would you do that if you were a real pirate? It'd be a dead give-away if you were sneaking up on a merchant vessel or trying to avoid the navy.

5) The catchphrases:
"Arrrrr"
"Shiver me timbers!"
"Yo ho ho!"
etc...
All stemming from fiction? (Does Silver actually say "Arrr, Jim-lad!" at any point in 'Treasure Island'?)


Any thoughts...?
 
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#2
Well perhaps its time for a survey - find your pirates via:

http://www.iccwbo.org/ccs/imb_piracy/weekly_piracy_report.asp

You can find Treasure Island online here:

http://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/webbin/gutbook/lookup?num=120

[edit: I just did a quick search through the text and didn't find a "Jim lad" but I did find:

"So," said he, "here's Jim Hawkins, shiver my timbers!
Dropped in, like, eh? Well, come, I take that friendly."
;) ]

Now I have a book on pirates around here somewhere...........

Emps
 
A

Anonymous

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#3
101 said:
1) Exotic pet - Eg, parrot, monkey, etc.
Obviously, pirates would be keen to have exotic, hard-to-come-by animals as status symbols, but is there any real-life documentation of such pets? The only one I can think of is Long John Silver's parrot, Captain Flint, but he's a work of fiction. Was he based on a real pirate pet?
(Off the top of my head.) Dunno. None of the sources I have mention any real-life pirates with pets, but by the same token, none of them debunk the notion either.

ibid.

2) Wooden leg
Again, the fictional Silver is the only one I know about. Was he the archetype? Was there a significant number of real pirates with prostheses, relative to 'normal' sailors, or everyday folk, even?

3) Hook.
Fictitious Captain Hook had a hook for a hand, but did the trend start and end with him? Did he have any real-life precursors?

The records of the period show that there were a significant minority of pirates with prosthetic limbs, and that the loss of limbs was regarded as a constant and very real risk of the whole 'trade', hence the special -and detailed- provisions made in every pirate ship's articles about the -usually generous- compensation due anyone who lost a limb. Given the amount of violence that piracy involves, the prevalence of lost limbs was almost certainly inevitable. I can't recall offhand any pirates who are reputed to have had hooks for hands, but given the prevalence of lost limbs and crude prosthetics it is possible that Hook may have had a real-life precursor.

ibid.

4) Skull-and-Crossbones flag
All fictional pirates hoist the 'Jolly Roger', but why would you do that if you were a real pirate? It'd be a dead give-away if you were sneaking up on a merchant vessel or trying to avoid the navy.

Pirates commonly flew flags of convenience: ie, in Spanish waters they'd be Spaniards, in British waters, English, in Dutch waters, Dutch and so on. When attacking merchants, it was commonplace for them to run up a red flag (signifying defiance) as a signal to their intended victim that they should surrender. The black flag decorated with symbols of death -the skull and crossbones, the grim reaper and hourglass, crossed swords and so on- was a real thing, but was only raised when an intended victim had pissed the pirates off (usually by not surrendering as soon as the red flag went up): its message was simply 'no quarter': i.e. 'surrender right now or die'. The movie image of a pirate ship sailing about the Spanish Main with the jolly roger fluttering in the breeze day and night is a massive exaggeration rather than an outright fiction.

ibid.

5) The catchphrases:
"Arrrrr"
"Shiver me timbers!"
"Yo ho ho!"
etc...
All stemming from fiction? (Does Silver actually say "Arrr, Jim-lad!" at any point in 'Treasure Island'?)

Fake. The catchphrases come from the novels and the movies: in real life pirates were known for the coarse vulgarity of their speech, not its 'quaintness'. In other words, most pirate ships would have sounded like any inner city housing estate after the pubs close: "See you you f***ing c**t" and so on. This language apparently caused as much offence to the female populations of the Indies as it does today among the 'blue-rinse set', and that was why the pirates went out of their way to be crude and vulgar in their language.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
#4
Why they had flag's at all isn't really known, so don't let anyone tell you with any degree of certainty any different. It is "assumed" that the flag was designed to strike fear into the hearts of other sailors...and they didn't just come in black and white, because a red flag for instance was a sign that they would show no mercy (very nasty business indeed).

As for the name Jolly roger, well, a lot of people romantically believe that it comes from the french word Jolie Rouge (Pretty red). Well, there's no certainty there either...its more likely to have come from the sport they had on board with the women as "Rogering" was a term commonly in use back then as it is now ('rogered at the rail' was a term used for the women that were raped onboard the ships). It's also thought to be a name for the devil..."ol' Roger". I'd wager its a reference to rape and pillage myself since the flag was often raised on a ship that was taken, replacing the flag that was sailing with a skull and cross bones.

Oh, and there's no record of plank walking either.

Hook...well that's from captain hook. there's no record or findings of pirate's with hooks, although that doesn't make it any less likely. Likewise the peg leg. no record of this, although Gang Green was rife and various other diseases picked up in ports so I wouldnt' be surprised if there were.

Parrots or any pet for that matter is the least likely of all. again no record, but pirates were more likely to have eaten the creature during hard times than have found a life long companion.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
#5
The Black Flag differed from pirate to pirate, one of the most famous variations (a skull and crossed cutlasses) being Jack Rackham's, for example.
It indicates that you are a pirate, rather than a warship, which is handy. They would fly a national flag, or no flag at all, most of the time, apparently.
For all your pirate needs check out Lives of the Most Notorious Pyrates and A Plunder of Pirates, the latter by Scholar Anderson. A kids' book, but rather handy, none the less.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
#6
Re: Re: Pirate Archetypes

Inverurie Jones said:
The Black Flag differed from pirate to pirate, one of the most famous variations (a skull and crossed cutlasses) being Jack Rackham's, for example.
It indicates that you are a pirate, rather than a warship, which is handy. They would fly a national flag, or no flag at all, most of the time, apparently.
For all your pirate needs check out Lives of the Most Notorious Pyrates and A Plunder of Pirates, the latter by Scholar Anderson. A kids' book, but rather handy, none the less.
Edward England's flag had the skull above the crossed bones....Richard Worley's skull lay over the bones. Thomas Tew's flag was an arm holding a cutlass.

plus more pirate useless info.

there was rarely any exchange of cannon fire as Pirate ships were often light vessels. They preferred to board quickly, drawing alongside and sweeping the decks.
 
A

Anonymous

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#7
Esquemeling's book The Buccaneers of America is also a fab source of info. I also recommend Captains Outrageous by Neville Williams (pub. 1961) for a good general history of the involvement of the British in piracy in every corner of the world from the medieval period onwards.
 

Abraxas12

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#8
Can't remember the source off hand but I read that the original skull & crossbones flag was flown by the Templar fleet.
 
A

Anonymous

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#9
I think alot of it comes from Robert Newton's superb portrayal of Long John Silver in Disney's 1950 'Treasure Island'.

Thaats woi we aaal know poy-raaates talk loik thaaas.
Aaarrr.
 
A

Anonymous

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#10
The term Buccaneer is derived from the French boucanier, from boucaner, to cure meat, from boucan, barbecue frame.
These guys were sailing the oceans trading dried meats and took up privateering cos it paid better.
Its cold enough to freeze the balls off a brass monkey.
Apparenly the accupuncture point for the eyes would be the earlobe. Gold earing 20-20 vision, usefull at sea pirate earings etc etc.
 
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#11
Lots of good stuff on pirate flags:

http://www.geocities.com/captcutlass/Flag.html

http://www.ntcsites.com/tourcharleston/pirateflags/

http://tinpan.fortunecity.com/lennon/897/flags.html

http://www.inkyfingers.com/pyrates/flags/

you can buy some of them here:

http://www.piratesinfo.com/store/

Lots of pirate pictures:

http://www.piratehaven.org/~beej/pirates/

[edit: Oh and on the subject of its origins (I'm not sure how reliable these sources are):

Another spooky myth surrounding the Templar is that of the Necromantic Skull of Sidon. The skull and cross-bones has long been associated with the Templar and the Masons. The knights of the Templar were monastic and therefore, involvement with women as forbidden, as stated in the Templar Rule of Order. The legend of the Skull of Sidon claims that one knights had a relationship with a woman who died; he dug up her corpse and consummated their relationship. A voice told him that night to return to the grave in nine months. The knight did so and found a skull and cross-bones inside. He was told it was "giver of all good things", so he took the bones away with him and defeated his enemies merely by showing them the magic head. Further myths surrounding the Templar were that the knights practised black magic, found Switzerland and were in possession of the Holy Grail, all proving exactly how popular and respected the Knights of the Templar were.
http://www.ancientspiral.com/templar.htm

also:

I was skimming through "Secret Societies of America's Elite, from the Knights Templar to the Skull and Bones" today, and forgive me if the title is not completely correct, I don't recall whether America was in it or not. The book was based around elite American families, though.

Anyway, the intro and first few chapters make a case for the Templars engaging in piracy. They called it privateering, but since they answered to no country's govt., everyone else called it piracy. They were not heavily involved in terms of their fleet, however they were well known for opening their ports to smugglers, pirates, and privateers, for a price. The book maintains that pirate ships flew the Templar skull and cross bones flag because they were able to find safety and anonymity in Templar and Mason controlled ports by flying the flag, knowing the answers to some coded questions, and of course, by sharing the bounty with the orders that sheltered and protected them. The book also comments on the code of the pirates brotherhood being similar to that of the Masons, and that Masons could not turn them away if they asked.
http://pub16.ezboard.com/ftheknightstemplardiscussionboardfrm7.showMessage?topicID=2.topic

The book is here:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0892819596/

and the synposis:

Despite the promise of its somewhat lurid title and cover, this odd combination of scholarship and speculation does not really have what it takes to capture the attention of a general reading audience. Its extremely broad theme is that "from the time of the Crusades to modern years, a handful of families have controlled the course of world events and have built their own status and wealth through collective efforts and intermarriage." Sora, who covered much of the same material in his earlier The Lost Treasure of the Knights Templar, connects the leaders of the 14th-century French military group the Knights Templar to 18th-century pirates such as Captain Kidd as well as Revolutionary heroes such as Benjamin Franklin. Sora provides some interesting insights into each subject: the business organization and acumen of the Knights Templar made them, in effect, "the first ever multinational corporation"; William Kidd was a businessman with ties to Scottish Masonic private clubs; and Franklin's efforts to keep the colonials supplied and funded meant that he "operated through Masonic groups in England and France, and his partners in the pro-American war efforts were more often than not hedonists, occultists, Rosicrucians, slave traders and spies." But his general attempt to connect Masonic groups to more current events like the J.F.K. assassination is on far shakier ground, and a final chapter on Yale's legendary Skull and Bones fraternity seems tacked on to book only to allow Sora to argue-but never prove-that "coincidences point to an elite handful of interlocking relationships that have a hold over national affairs."
oooooooo it just gets more invovled:

Pirates and the Lost Templar Fleet: The Secret Naval War Between the Templars & the Vatican

The fascinating world of maverick sea captains who were knights Templars. This fleet flew the Skull and Cross-Bones, the symbol of the Knights Templar, and preyed on Vatican ships coming from the rich ports of the Americas: they were the original Pirates of the Caribbean. Later, known as Scottish Rite Free Masons, they battled the Spanish and Italian ships that sailed for the Pope. This lost Templar Fleet was originally based at La Rochelle near Marseille, then hidden away in the fiords of Scotland. This Templar fleet made a voyage to Canada in the year 1298 AD, nearly 100 years before Columbus!
http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/biblio?inkey=62-1931882185-0

See also (the last link is to a KKK site but it is detailed):

http://www.templarhistory.com/sidon.html

http://www.templarhistory.com/regalia.html

http://www.angelfire.com/nc/HUMMINGBIRD1/pirate.html

http://www.meta-religion.com/Secret_societies/Order_of_Skull/christ_and_cross_bones.htm

http://www.orionknights.com/skullnbones.htm

Perhaps given what it says above it should be no suprise that an order of the KKK uses it as their symbol.]

Emps
 
A

Anonymous

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#13
the Jolly Roger: Templar idea?

i was just reading that the Templars were the first to use the skull and crossbones as their maritime flag. anyone else hear this? it's kinda logical to see how wayward and disgruntled and Knights could easily have become pirates since they did run the best financial services at their peak. what were they to do after their fall?
 
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#14
synthwerk: I move your thread over to the one discussing the Jolly Roger and the Templars (see my post above).

Emps
 

sunsplash1

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#17
Re: the Jolly Roger: Templar idea?

synthwerk said:
i was just reading that the Templars were the first to use the skull and crossbones as their maritime flag. anyone else hear this? it's kinda logical to see how wayward and disgruntled and Knights could easily have become pirates since they did run the best financial services at their peak. what were they to do after their fall?
More information please... I came across the Jolly Rog ~Templar thing a while back but lost the info.

:)
 
A

Anonymous

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#18
i'm reading The Rise and Fall of the Knights Templar: The Order of the Temple 1118-1314 - A True History of Faith, Glory, Betrayal and Tragedy and all it mentioned was that the Templars were the first to fly that Jolly Roger. it was all said in one sentence and never mentioned again.
 
A

Anonymous

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#19
The distinctive 'pirate' image seems to have more to do with the sailors in general of the 18th century, than the glory days of privateering in the 16th/17th century.
The big boots, frock coat and tricorn hat of todays architypal pirate was the everyday clothing of your average early 18th century bloke in the street, just the sort of person the press-gangs were after. The navy of the period had no uniform proper, they would have worn whatever they could get their hands on.
The exotic pets were probably more common in merchant seaman, who would have had the chance to pick them up in their native lands, and also not forgetting that there is a very long history of exotic pet importation (many portraits of nobles or their children feature such things as parrots, monkeys ect.). On a later fictional note, there is also Poe's murderous orangatang!
The prosthetic limbs is hardly surprising considering a ships surgeon was called a 'saw-bones'. Any breakages or wounds/lesions were dealt with by cutting off the offending limb and cauterising the stump with hot pitch. there would be no other way to deal with it on a minging ship. And they were minging.
This would surly be the end of any 'able seaman's' career, but for those with special skills, such as a captain, it would mark them out as being a well-hard, crusty old sea-dog.
As for pirates saying 'Yarr!', that's just 'ow they talks in Brizzle.
Yarr har har harrr!!!!
:D
 

FelixAntonius

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#21
101 said:
........ Wooden leg
Again, the fictional Silver is the only one I know about. Was he the archetype? Was there a significant number of real pirates with prostheses, relative to 'normal' sailors, or everyday folk, even?
No wooden leg in the book "Treasure Island", Silver was missing a leg!!!!!!

Character was based on R.L.S's publisher William Ernest Henley, who lost a leg as a child.

http://courses.wcupa.edu/fletcher/henley/project.htm
 

rynner2

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#24
A bit late, but...

Arghhh, it's Talk Like a Pirate Day
By Sarah Womack, Social Affairs Correspondent
Last Updated: 3:43am BST 19/09/2007

Hit the rum, shout "shiver me timbers" or "avast, ya scurvy varmints" and integrate the following words into your lexicon: Matey, booty, Arghhh, buried treasure, plank, scoundrel, plunder etc.

Say them in a low, gravelly voice, because you've been breathing in saltwater and are bound to be a little raspy.

Why? Because Wednesday is International Talk Like A Pirate Day.

"Pirates of the Caribbean" star Johnny Depp is not the only over-the-top buccaneer allowed to have fun.

September 19 is your once-a-year chance to don an eye patch, sport a ridiculously large hat and keep on saying "Arrrrr.

When people ask you what the heck you're doing, tell them "One-Eyed-Willie sent me..." :shock:

It all started back in the 1990s as a cult joke between two American friends - John "Ol Chumbucket" Baur and Mark "Capn Slappy" Summers - but took off when syndicated columnist Dave Barry got to hear about their surreal festival.

"We tap into that need for whimsy in people's lives," Mr Summers said of the 24-hour celebration of quirkiness when they urge all self-respecting swashbucklers to show "pirattitude."

International Talk Like a Pirate Day (TLAPD), which adopted Treasure Island star Robert Newton as its patron saint, now attracts fans from Britain to Australia and even boasts a special Wikipedia site on the internet.

The day even has its own unofficial anthem - American Tom Smith has written and recorded "Talk Like a Pirate Day" - and Canadian sketch comedy troupe Loading Ready Run produced an educational video on how to swashbuckle with the best of them.

Ol Chumbucket and Capn Slappy are bombarded with requests for TLAPD interviews and proudly boast on their own website that they are even now being immortalised in computer games.

"That's fairly cool and geeky," Ol Chumbucket decided.

Pirate fans around the world have rallied round, showing that surreal silliness is alive and well.

An American soldier stationed in Iraq promised that "to celebrate, myself and others will wear an eye patch all day."

Sydney, Australia is staging a harbour cruise with "flagons of grog at pub prices and prizes to treasure for the dandiest of outfits."

A bar in Venice, Italy is holding an olive stone-spitting contest for would-be buccaneers.

A Brazilian fan sent a letter of support in a bottle while one overjoyed Argentinian whose birthday falls on the same day said "It will be difficult to talk in Spanish like pirates but we will try."

How to be a pirate girl

Wear a lot of bandanas. Especially ones with skull and crossbones designs and red and black ones. When not wearing a bandana, make your hair a bit messy. You can also use an eye patch. White, ivory, beige, cream and tan peasant shirts are great for the look. Skull t-shirts are also great. Plain black, white or beige shirts with cut-off sleeves are a great addition to your wardrobe. Brightly coloured long sleeve button ups are piratey. Just make sure they are loose, not stiff like a shirt a corporate executive might wear to the office. And make sure you leave all of it untucked but the very front, creating a sagging look (regardless of how it's finished) and unbutton the top few buttons.

How to talk like a pirate

Growl - and scowl often. Pirates don't use a cultured, elegant, smooth vocalization - they mutter and growl.

Gesture with your hands frequently. Don't forget that pirates do most of their talking on the deck of a ship - out on the ocean, where wind, waves, and bird calls make it tough to hear. Gesturing often gives you a sense of "being there."

Run words together. Saying, "The boys and I were out for a lovely day on the water today" sounds like something you'd overhear at a yacht club. Instead, try, "Me'n'these here scurvy scallywags drug our sorry keesters out t'th'ship'n'had us a grand great adventuaaarrr! We almost had t'keelhaul Mad Connie f'r gettin inter th' grog behind our backs!" Note that you should always endeavour to call the addressee by some insulting name, usually involving an animal. "Yer a scurvy bilge rat, ya pompous gasbag" or "Here's yer dinner, ya mangy cockroach." (source: wikiHow)

http://tinyurl.com/2xhana

IIRC, Robert Newton played Long John Silver in Disney's "Treasure island", which was filmed in Falmouth Harbour...yep:

Year Made: 1949

Name of Film: Treasure Island

Location: Carrick Roads, River Fal, Helford River, Gull Rock.

Production Company: RKOP/Walt Disney

Director: Byron Haskin

Cast: Robert Newton, Bobby Driscoll.
And Robert Newton's version was parodied by comedian Tony Hancock, who is probably more well known for the "Ooh Agh, Jim Lad" type comments than RN himself!
 

JamesWhitehead

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#25
The Disney film spawned a long-running fifties tv series in which Newton went OTT with his own impersonation of LJS before Hancock became obsessed with it. Hancock's Newton and Laughton take-offs were said to have been drawn on extensively, whenever he forgot the script in his late stage appearances. It was, of course, Laughton in Mutiny on the Bounty mode which most appealed to him.

Both Newton and Laughton had starred in Hitchcock's Jamaica Inn, where Laughton is wonderfully ripe as the wrecking-squire. At this stage in his career, Newton was considered leading-man material and his romantic lead is a lot less colourful.

Laughton's piratical career continued in the cheaply-made Captain Kidd, where his accent is said to have been modelled on Hitchcock's. My favourite scene is the still image of "London, 1599," complete with Tower Bridge!

The broadening of Newton's style is ascribed to his drinking. Come to think of it, his juvenile co-star in the Disney film, Bobby Driscoll had an even sadder fate . . .

I think the tv series was an early success for independent television and the piratical theme was considered highly appropriate for a venture which employed writers black-listed by Hollywood. The same was true of Robin Hood and Wiliam Tell from the same period.

There must have been earlier pirate films but the 1934 version of Treasure Island starring Wallace Beery as LJS was probably highly influential. It was followed in Hollywood by Erroll Flynn's more dashing outlaws in Captain Blood, 1935 and The Sea Hawk, 1940.

The filmic versions of pirates were probably derived from illustrations in children's books. The most frightening version of LJS I can think of was the evil-looking character dreamed up by Mervyn Peake in his drawings for Treasure Island. :shock:
 

Naughty_Felid

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#28
The Disney film spawned a long-running fifties tv series in which Newton went OTT with his own impersonation of LJS before Hancock became obsessed with it. Hancock's Newton and Laughton take-offs were said to have been drawn on extensively, whenever he forgot the script in his late stage appearances. It was, of course, Laughton in Mutiny on the Bounty mode which most appealed to him.

Both Newton and Laughton had starred in Hitchcock's Jamaica Inn, where Laughton is wonderfully ripe as the wrecking-squire. At this stage in his career, Newton was considered leading-man material and his romantic lead is a lot less colourful.

Laughton's piratical career continued in the cheaply-made Captain Kidd, where his accent is said to have been modelled on Hitchcock's. My favourite scene is the still image of "London, 1599," complete with Tower Bridge!

The broadening of Newton's style is ascribed to his drinking. Come to think of it, his juvenile co-star in the Disney film, Bobby Driscoll had an even sadder fate . . .

I think the tv series was an early success for independent television and the piratical theme was considered highly appropriate for a venture which employed writers black-listed by Hollywood. The same was true of Robin Hood and Wiliam Tell from the same period.

There must have been earlier pirate films but the 1934 version of Treasure Island starring Wallace Beery as LJS was probably highly influential. It was followed in Hollywood by Erroll Flynn's more dashing outlaws in Captain Blood, 1935 and The Sea Hawk, 1940.

The filmic versions of pirates were probably derived from illustrations in children's books. The most frightening version of LJS I can think of was the evil-looking character dreamed up by Mervyn Peake in his drawings for Treasure Island. :shock:
I always attributed "pirate-speak" to Newton.


I love Peake's drawings.

 
Last edited:

AnonyJoolz

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#30
I think the general 'pirate' accent might have something to do with the speech patterns of the peninsula of south-west England - lots of seafaring history and sailors' stories - jazzed up a bit for fiction.

No-one knows why pirates become pirates - they just arrrrrrrrrrrrr!
 
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