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Plant Emotions / Consciousness / Communication

The United States Department of Agriculture has learned that plants "scream" chemically when attacked by caterpillars. Corn plants, for example, release a chemical signal when mixed with the saliva of the caterpillar. This signal attracts wasps which lay their eggs in the caterpillar, eventually killing the caterpillar and saving the plant. If the leaf is cut or injured in some other way, the chemical signal is not emitted. Only when the caterpillar saliva mixes with the damaged portion of the leaf is the signal given off.

Because of this elaborate system, a wasp can seek out caterpillars in a huge corn field and stop large scale damage. James Tumlinson, of the USDA says soybeans and cotton plants have a similar defense against pests. We are only beginning to understand how many natural protective mechanisms are built into the environment to help us and protect us. Some pesticides may kill the wasps and not the caterpillars, defeating the system designed to protect the plants. There is much to learn about the design of living things--a design so complex that we maintain it cannot be a product of chance.

--Source Popular Science, October, 1993, page 33.
http://www.doesgodexist.org/MayJun96/WhenAPlantScreams.html
 
RainyOcean said:
Well, looks like I'm going to starve:D

This is actually something I've wondered about vegetarians ever since the first news reports from scientists saying plants could feel pain.

I could never be a vegetarian myself, I don't really like fruit or veg. Or many other foods, I'm pretty picky ;)
 
I heard years ago that rubber plants make an ultrasound 'squeak' when they badly need watering and are distressed, but I can't find any references to it.
I'll keep looking.
:)
 
"I could never be a vegetarian myself, I don't really like fruit or veg. Or many other foods, I'm pretty picky "

Yeah, I never really liked meat, so it works out. Whenever anyone asks me how it is that I can avoid meat but not plants, in case plants do feel pain, I say that I have to eat something, but know I feel really bad about eating them. This sucks:(
 
Someone correct me if I've got the wrong end of the stick, but don't Fruitarians only eat the fruits of plant because that's what is given by the plant and you're not harming it in any way.

(I suppose logically you should then make an effort to distribute the seeds, because that's what the plant is giving you the fruit for.)
 
I wonder if plants feel guilty for sucking the nutrients out of the soil.
 
what's the name of the fellow who connected his plants up to a lie detector and got reactions even when thinking agressive thoughts?
 
Not sure mate.

Ok, admittedly this site looks somewhat dodgy but i purchased a very cool mini-theremin from the kind gent who runs it. This product, however, i'm not so sure about:

http://www.lightnet.co.uk/no1/plant.htm
 
Perhaps someone should order one of he "Plant Chant" devices and see what plants sound like ;)
 
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Faggus said:
what's the name of the fellow who connected his plants up to a lie detector and got reactions even when thinking agressive thoughts?

Its actually in the last sentence of the article I posted at the start of the thread:

The debate began in 1966 when a lie detector expert, Cleve Backster, connected a plant to a polygraph. He said the machine registered changes as soon as he began to contemplate burning the plant's leaves.

More from today's Garudian and our own Mark Pilkington:

Primary perception

Mark Pilkington
Thursday June 10, 2004
The Guardian

Cleve Backster was a respected operator in the controversial field of polygraphy, the use of lie detectors. But in February 1966 he became known for plant telepathy.

Curious to measure how long it took water to reach the leaves of a dracaena cane plant, Backster attached polygraph electrodes to it. These measure galvanic skin response - electrical conductivity - and should, he thought, have registered a change when water reached the leaf. Unexpectedly, the plant showed readings similar to those of a human.

Backster wondered if the plant would effect the polygraph in other ways. He dipped a leaf into warm coffee. Nothing happened. Then he considered burning the leaf; the polygraph, he claims, "went wild. The pen jumped right off the top of the chart". The plant,it seemed, had registered a stress response to Backster 's thoughts of harming it.

He then dropped brine shrimp into boiling water and the plant appeared to register the shrimps' distress. Was the plant demonstrating some kind of sentient, even telepathic, awareness?

Backster thought so and named it "primary perception". His work appeared in the International Journal of Parapsychology (1968), and in Tomkins and Bird's book The Secret Life of Plants (1973). Soviet scientists invited him to chair a panel at the first Psychotronic Association conference in Prague.

Encouraged, Backster experimented further, wiring up yoghurt bacteria, eggs and human sperm. The results seemed to demonstrate that "primary perception" could be measured in all living things, echoing the beliefs of hindus, buddhists and new agers

Backster's findings are not without their critics. Repeatability is a constant problem - his results, and those of others who tried the experiments,seem to be spontaneous, refusing to comply with approved scientific method. Some have criticised his lack of control experiments, suggesting the polygraphs are merely responding to static electricity build-up in the room, changes in humidity or, according to some parapsychologists, Backster's own telekinetic abilities. That the reliability of the polygraph test itself has come into serious question also doesn't help his argument.

Whatever the case, Backster's idea has blossomed and flourished, and is unlikely to die away.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/farout/story/0,13028,1234885,00.html
 
I saw something on TV once about that.
I think it was actually an old "Outer Limits" episode or something in which the plants the scientist was experimenting on "told" on him (via the electronic transmitter hooked up to them)when he murdered his wife.
I do believe that plants feel and that every living thing is capable of telepathy on some level.

A life-form of any level of development still seeks the same primary goal "To Survive".
This will to survive is essential in any life form,plant or animal.
Without it there would be no such thing as evolution as there would be no point to it.
Why alter/improve your form if you do not feel it is in your own best interest to do so .

I've had to laugh to myself about the logic of vegetarians and vegans( no offense intended).
But in all the animal kingdom there is no guilt associated with survival. You consume what you need to consume...it is Nature's way.
Death is neccessary to life,it's as simple as that.

I guess it would be nice if animals "fruited" as do some plants and gave willingly of themselves in order to propogate their species.
I guess with cloning perhaps it will one day be acheivable to grow organs and flesh in the laboratory for human consumption. Perhaps this would be of benefit to space travel or even in the case of famine.
 
Emperor said:
Its actually in the last sentence of the article I posted at...
damn me and my inattentive reading! thanks though
 
Plants "CAN'T" feel pain , nor can they even perceive of the concept because they lack the brain and central nervous system necessary to need it. All the things noted *Apart from the polygraph machine (Which, in my opinion, is a pile of crap and says a lot for the US government taking the results of human test serious in legal terms!)* Are simply signs of evolutionary overthrows, which mean absolutely nothing in the cause of plants feeling anything at all.
So sleep safe Rainy Ocean. (But question your dairy consuming ways if pain be the problem!!!!!)

Vegan 19 years, not biased or animal rights manic!
:D
 
Hey, I am vegan.:D

Sorry if I said vegetarian before. The vegan thing just came about within the last few months and I am used to saying vegetarian.
 
some new comments on responsiveness of cucumber plants

To all:

I mentioned, last year, that the cucumber plants in our garden seemed to display reactions, including a response to assaults on other plants in the area. When the tree in front of our house was having many of its branches cut off, I mentioned that the cucumber leaves folded down, so that they looked like folded umbrellas. After a while, and after the cutting was done they started to open up, again.

Some suggestions seem to have been made that it was heat or humidity that caused the reaction.

I kept a watch, and, many times, I saw the leaves open, under the same conditions. There was always a possibility, though, of someone arguing that conditions were not exactly the same as when I saw the leaves folded.

Today, Saturday, July 10, 2004, though, someone was running a weed whacker on the grass, across the street from our house. When I looked outside, I saw that some of the leaves were folded like umbrellas, again, while some were not! A picture of the cucumber plants can be accessed below. The street, and the person using the weed whacker, would be to the left of the picture. And it is those plants that are showing a reaction! The plants to the right, further from the person working the grass, are not folded!

Some may try to suggest such things as that the cucumbers to the left of the picture are near a concrete walkway, but so are the ones to the right of the picture. And the sunlight and humidity were the same for all!

When the tree was being worked on, it seems to have been a massive assault, and long-lasting, and close, which is why all the plants responded, and so dramatically. This was, relatively, minor, which can explain that only a few responded.

If others have seen similar reactions, it could be of interest. This seems like a very easy response to see, and one whose cause can be determined quickly and directly. Further information can be useful.



Julian Penrod
 
Scientists? Cabbages? Pain? Analogous? Pffft! SHow me the brain stem/central nervous system/ need for feeling pain!
 
Well, ages and ages ago, that's what this thread was about... :D

I didn't read that part though.
 
Plants may feel pain on some level, but it is in no way the same kind of pain or the amount of pain that animals feel.
 
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It has, one must regret; got out of hand.
Plants may feel pain on some level, but it is in no way the same kind of pain or the amount of pain that animals feel.

Plants don't feel pain. Show me where the proof is. I know this thread was originally about said topic, but the research means nothing towards proving plants feeling pain.
It's been going on for ages now, just like cold fusion.
Soon we'll be hearing that researchers are just about to prove that rocks feel pain....maybe quartz gives out vibrations to electrical charges because it's hurting it and it's throbbing like a crushed thumb! Perhaps molten lava is rock blood!!

Pain indeed! Pain = conciousness. Plants aren't sentient.
(Unless Triffids exist!):blah:
 
"Plants don't feel pain. Show me where the proof is. I know this thread was originally about said topic, but the research means nothing towards proving plants feeling pain.
It's been going on for ages now, just like cold fusion.
Soon we'll be hearing that researchers are just about to prove that rocks feel pain....maybe quartz gives out vibrations to electrical charges because it's hurting it and it's throbbing like a crushed thumb! Perhaps molten lava is rock blood!!"

Notice I said plants may feel pain.
 
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To get back to the actual point of this thread, as you said:
Plants don't feel pain. Show me where the proof is. I know this thread was originally about said topic, but the research means nothing towards proving plants feeling pain... Pain = conciousness. Plants aren't sentient.
This is what we should actually be discussing.
 
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Plants don't feel pain. Show me where the proof is. I know this thread was originally about said topic, but the research means nothing towards proving plants feeling pain... Pain = conciousness. Plants aren't sentient.

Webster's Dictionary states :

consciousness ~ 1.awareness of one's own feelings,what is happening around one 2.all of one's thoughts,feelings,and impressions

It is not specified that one feel pain to be conscious.
In fact there are cases of people who cannot feel the sensation of pain,they generally do not live a long life as they don't get health problems corrected because they are not aware of the damage that is happening to their systems because pain is not registered.

Plants will seek out environments that are best suited to their well being if they are able to,they shy away from bright light or bend toward it depending on the species' needs.
Plants will send roots into sewage pipes too,where they detect water and nutrients.
Plants over time,also develop protective devices as mentioned earlier...toxins,thorns,spines.

As I mentioned earlier in this thread,anything that is alive tends to want to stay that way.
Whether or not you want to attribute consciousness to that or merely an instinctive avoidance of death and sustaining of life mechanism the fact remains,a living plant or a living animal will both try to avoid harm,sustain life and heal itself when injured.

Are not all living things then sentient to some degree.
Whether a protozoa or tree or dog or human?
It is my belief that all living things have the consciousness of God flowing through them regardless of how (self aware) they are.
Look at how insects,very primitive as they are are able to take on extraordinary forms such as flowers,thorns,leaves and sticks.

I'm not saying these creatures are conscious of the forms which they sport or have any choice in the matter but there is a conscious mind at work which coaxes the evolutionary change in form from one to another as well as defensive and aggressive behaviors of both plants and animals that is intended to help them survive.

Having said that,it is my belief that all living things suffer and all living things would avoid being consumed for the benefit of another and that is the key to evolution~"the will to survive"
 
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I can just see the tabloid headlines when this was published, something along the line of PLANTS CRY OUT FOR "MORE WATER PLEASE!"

http://heronpublishing.com/tree/summaries/volume5/a5-229.html
Link is dead. Here's the text of the MIA webpage, salvaged from the Wayback Machine ...

Tree Physiology, 5:229–237
1989 Heron Publishing—Victoria, Canada

Ultrasound emission after cycles of water stress in Picea abies

M. Borghetti (1), A. Raschi (2) and J. Grace (3)

1. lstituto Miglioramento genetico delle piante forestali, CNR, via S. Bonaventura 13, 50145-Firenze, Italy / 2. Istituto Analisi ambientale e telerilevamento applicati all’agricolura, CNR, P. le delle Cascine 18, 50144-Firenze, Italy / 3. Department of Forestry and Natural Resources, University of Edinburgh, The King’s Buildings, Edinburgh EH9 3JU, UK / Received July 22, 1988

Summary

The relationships among rate of ultrasound acoustic emission (AE), xylem water potential and transpiration rate were investigated in 5-year-old potted saplings of Picea abies Karst. after cycles of water stress. Water-stressed plants displayed minimum xylem water potentials of –3.9 MPa, near-zero transpiration rates and up to 45 AE counts per minute. After rewatering, water-stressed plants no longer produced AEs. Well-watered control plants produced only a small number of ultrasonic AEs. After three cycles of water stress (lasting 24 days in total), it was estimated that about two-thirds of the functional tracheids were embolized. The concomitant reduction in hydraulic conductance was about 70%.

SOURCE: https://web.archive.org/web/2004102...ishing.com/tree/summaries/volume5/a5-229.html
 
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The very processes of thought,imagination and judgement are things that require purpose and intent not chance.

No, they just require a brain. A brain that evolved to master imagination, thought, and judgement.

Plants lack this brain; they don't have a central nervous system or anything similar. They're passive, stimulus-response driven organisms. AFAIK. They sense light, they move towards it, that's as intelligent as they are. They don't know they're alive, they don't know they're dead.
 
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You know the Stevie Wonder album "The Secret Life of Plants"? Has anyone seen the documentary film it is the soundtrack for? Apparently it features plants being hooked up to machines and terrorised to prove that they feel emotions or at least have a level of awareness.
 
the album sounds fascinating enough as it is, I'd really like to hear it.
 
I've not seen the film (or heard the music) but I remember reading the book as a kid.

I was pretty astounded by the experiments. From what I can recall they attached ECG monitors to the plants, thought about burning a leaf and the plants reacted?

But was it the plants reacting, or the experimenters affecting the machines?:p
 
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