Political Correctness Rides Again

Frideswide

Fortea Morgana :) PeteByrdie certificated Princess
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However, trans people have become far more visible/prominent/vocal etc in recent years and this has seems to have coincided with the increase in frankly arsehole behaviour among some trans people.
agreed - as the visibility increases, the number of tossers increases too. The unpleasant attach themselves to every group, movement etc,

I don't think the vocal, arsehole minority represent trans people in general, anymore than I think the nuttier conspiracy theorists (indeed) or other believer types represent Forteans but I can see why people conflate the two.
It's not helped by people who insist on labelling the larger group with the behaviour of the former. But that happens all the time as well.
 

Frideswide

Fortea Morgana :) PeteByrdie certificated Princess
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They call themselves Trans Rights Activists.
As do other Trans Rights Activists.

Maybe it's a difference in culture or country - as this is an international board, perhaps we could make the effort to be clear and precise in our definitions?
 
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As do other Trans Rights Activists.

Maybe it's a difference in culture or country - as this is an international board, perhaps we could make the effort to be clear and precise in our definitions?

I have been quite clear. It's not a difference in culture or country, It's a difference of opinion. Plenty of Scottish Feminists would use the terms as I do.

I've said it before and I repeat: this is a war. A war for LGB rights and Women's rights in particular.
 

brownmane

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TRAs strike again.

On 5th June 2019, feminist campaigner, activist, journalist and author Julie Bindel was attacked after appearing and speaking at a panel at Edinburgh University on women’s rights and protections.

As she was leaving the event, a transactivist who goes by the Twitter handle “TownTattle” (I won’t link to either the account nor reference by the assumed name, more on that later) attempted to push through security to presumably physically attack Bindel for her daring to talk about women’s sex-based rights as a biological class; as opposed to advocating for the absolutely facile, redundant and offensive argument that “woman” is just an identity that can be embraced or disregarded on a whim.

He was shouting and ranting and raving, ‘you’re a fucking cunt, you’re a fucking bitch, a fucking Terf” and the rest of it. We were trying to walk to the cab to take us to the airport, and then he just lunged at me and almost punched me in the face, but a security guard pulled him away.
I got my phone out to film him to get evidence and he went for me again. It took three security guys at the stage to deal with him.

https://medium.com/@tom_farr/male-silence-and-male-violence-a-marriage-of-complicity-ad669b87c800
That person is not a "transactivist", s/he is a violent bully trying to frighten people into following his/her beliefs. Does that person not even realize that using misogynistic terms shows him/ her for what s/he is?
 
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That person is not a "transactivist", s/he is a violent bully trying to frighten people into following his/her beliefs. Does that person not even realize that using misogynistic terms shows him/ her for what s/he is?
The trouble is that many TRAs supported him in his attack on Julie. They went on to condemn her for misgendering him. This is a bearded guy in a skirt attacking a woman.
 
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WPUK seeks support as the Guardian trivialises the attack on Julie Bindel.

We are disappointed that The Guardian has made an editorial decision to ignore the views of women by not publishing our response to their mendacious account of the attack on Julie Bindel when leaving a meeting in Edinburgh. This attack is symbolic of all the verbal, physical, online and workplace violence faced by women who speak out on issues that affect them.
If you’d like to show your support for Julie and all those other women who’ve been harassed at work, assaulted or abused for speaking out, please leave a comment. Comments will be moderated before being published.
If you would like to add your name to this letter, please submit a comment below or via our contact page.


The Guardian’s reporting of an attack on leading feminist Julie Bindel after a packed event in Edinburgh on Wednesday night is a travesty. We and many other women are outraged at the trivialisation of misogynistic violence.

The attack, which took place as Julie left and was witnessed by several people, was reported as though it was a minor detail in a story about members of an LGBT+ university group resigning in protest at the meeting.

The minimalizing of violence against women, and the implication that it is provoked by our behaviour, is dangerously commonplace in UK society. We are sickened to see The Guardian dancing to the same tune.

Journalism requires the reporting of facts as well as a narrative arc. By failing to properly report this act of violence against Julie Bindel, the Guardian has shown it is unworthy of its female readership and is part of the oppression we face.

https://womansplaceuk.org/2019/06/10/support-julie-bindel/
 

brownmane

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The trouble is that many TRAs supported him in his attack on Julie. They went on to condemn her for misgendering him. This is a bearded guy in a skirt attacking a woman.
A violent bully using misogynist terms is still a violent bully. Those who support that behaviour are the same regardless to what label they want to use.

I tend to agree with @Frideswide's idea (as interpreted by me) is that one bad apple can spoil the bunch. There are people with real concerns who are trying to legitimately and humanely trying to express these concerns, but the concerns are blotted out with bad actions taken by others who say they identify with the label.

I call myself feminist, but I'm not an activist and I certainly don't agree with all people who call themselves feminist.
 

Mythopoeika

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The trouble is that many TRAs supported him in his attack on Julie. They went on to condemn her for misgendering him. This is a bearded guy in a skirt attacking a woman.
I think the beard may no longer be a feature. There are several old pictures of this person on the Internet.
But that doesn't excuse the ridiculous behaviour.
 

Yithian

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Screenshot 2019-06-11 at 04.01.10.png
Video:
https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-england-london-48126998/my-passport-gender-should-be-non-binary

I think Jamie has missed the point of a passport. Since their inception passports have been about the government classifying you, not you classifying yourself to the government. The government would have to be mad to allow applicants to choose their own sexual and gender identities on official documents and systems, because they would very soon have an unsustainable number of permutations that would prevent intelligent record keeping, and their ability to make projections and estimates would likely be significantly impaired.

Had to include the picture. Jamie clearly would have wanted us to see it.
 

AnonyJoolz

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View attachment 17996
Video:
https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-england-london-48126998/my-passport-gender-should-be-non-binary

I think Jamie has missed the point of a passport. Since their inception passports have been about the government classifying you, not you classifying yourself to the government. The government would have to be mad to allow applicants to choose their own sexual and gender identities on official documents and systems, because they would very soon have an unsustainable number of permutations that would prevent intelligent record keeping, and their ability to make projections and estimates would likely be significantly impaired.

Had to include the picture. Jamie clearly would have wanted us to see it.
At least one government does allow a 'third gender' classification; I once posted about the reasoning behind it in one country (ancient Ramayana Hindu tradition of at least a couple of milliennia) but darned if I can't find my insightful, witty, informative and utterly inspiring post on here now! I will award a plate of dal-bhat-tarkari to whoever can :)

Third gender is just a new concept here, but it's been around for a very long time in some regions of the world. I agree that multiple permutations would be unworkable, but what's so awkward about 'neither M/F' in a passport?
 

graylien

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Yeah, I filled out a passport application recently and noticed there was only a male/female option.

I think the only really important thing about a passport is that you should be clearly recognisable from your passport photo.

I don't see a problem with people declaring themselves to be any gender they choose.
 

Ogdred Weary

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At least one government does allow a 'third gender' classification; I once posted about the reasoning behind it in one country (ancient Ramayana Hindu tradition of at least a couple of milliennia) but darned if I can't find my insightful, witty, informative and utterly inspiring post on here now! I will award a plate of dal-bhat-tarkari to whoever can :)

Third gender is just a new concept here, but it's been around for a very long time in some regions of the world. I agree that multiple permutations would be unworkable, but what's so awkward about 'neither M/F' in a passport?
UK (and many other passports) recognise a third sex: Intersex or Other, for people neither biologically male nor female.
 

Yithian

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UK (and many other passports) recognise a third sex: Intersex or Other, for people neither biologically male nor female.
My point wasn't against intersex, it was that once that is granted there will almost certainly be calls to allow more variations.
 
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EnolaGaia

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... I think the only really important thing about a passport is that you should be clearly recognisable from your passport photo.

I don't see a problem with people declaring themselves to be any gender they choose.
A passport represents a certified credential of identity for the passport holder. The photo is certainly the most efficiently check-able item on the face of the document. The inclusion of any other data (physical features, sex / gender) provides secondary evidence for validating the identity of the person submitting the passport to a representative of relevant authority.

It's nothing short of ludicrous to think correlation with a notional / conceptual gender category is as reliable and acceptable a point of verification as correlation with a physically verifiable attribute or feature. Gender self-identification in this notional / conceptual sense is a matter of "what I say it is" rather than "what it can be verified to be."

Allowing identity verification on such a basis is no more reasonable than basing an ID check on the submitter's claim of favorite TV show, color*, or food.

(* recall the Bridge of Death scene in Monty Python and the Holy Grail)

IMHO the most appropriate third option for sex / gender validation isn't "Other" - it's "Unusable for ID Certification; Additional Confirmation Required."
 

Ogdred Weary

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My point wasn't against intersex, it was that once that is granted there will almost certainly be calls to allow more variations.
I wasn't making a point against anything you had said, just pointing out that a third option already exists in some countries.

I agree on the gender thing, where would it stop? Some people would like to unicorns on their passports no doubt.
 

Jayceedove

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Fair enough. Hopefully we can all agree that throwing eggs, flour or milkshakes over people is unacceptable behavior.

To move things back to a theme of political correctness, I see that Doctor Who author and scriptwriter Gareth Roberts, himself a gay man, has been dropped by BBC Books due to quips he made a couple of years ago about transgender people's choice of names:

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2...logy-writer-transgender-tweets-gareth-roberts

I posted my support for Gareth on his feed.
 

blessmycottonsocks

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