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Zilch5

Gone But Not Forgotten
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Soooo - the new Pope is the first South American, the first Jesuit and the first Francis. Not a bad start as such and certainly a surprise.

It's been described by one expert as "the most stunning choice", because of its links to St Francis of Assisi, the 13th-century reformer who lived in poverty and told followers: "Preach the Gospel always; if necessary, use words."


Just like there's been no Pope Peter since the first one in 33AD, so too did incoming pontiffs shy away from the name Francis – because St Francis' deeds were seen as "irrepeatable".

"The new pope is sending a signal that this will not be business as usual," Vatican expert John Allen told CNN.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/popes-stunn ... z2NULxbzEH

Whatever all that means, he certainly isn't "Peter the Roman" and was only an outside chance. The media will certainly try to dig up any dirt they may find - and one accusation has surfaced already, being that he somehow he somehow colluded with the Argentine Military Dictatorship back in the 70s. See this Wikipedia article (under Relations with the Argentine government. Murky stuff.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jorge_Bergoglio

Sooo - thoughts, theories, conspiracies anyone?
 
Zilch5 said:
...Sooo - thoughts, theories, conspiracies anyone?

Well, the fact that he's a Jesuit is probably going to be enough for some people to see a conspiracy, not least quite a few Catholics. Jesuit conspiracy theories were awfully popular at one time, but have recently been relegated to the back-burner by upstarts like the Bilderberg Group. Amongst many other things they apparently sank the Titanic. (Link here for anyone who can be bothered.)

So, from a Fortean point of view we are therefore probably about to see an upsurge in Jesuit related conspiracy theories to add to all the others. Won't that be great? sighs

It will be interesting to see what his relationship to the última junta militar was. Ultra-catholicism has played a large part in instigating and maintaining the darker periods of Argentina's past. (I'd recommend Uki Goñi's, The Real Odessa - it's not solely about that relationship, but there are many examples of it.)
 
But is he with it?

We need a with it pope, young would be nice but there are plenty of old swingers around.
 
Do we need a Pope? I don't :)
 
He's in good company, the 1st Bishop of Rome denied knowing Jesus 3 times before the cock crowed.
 
Amongst many other things they apparently sank the Titanic. (Link here for anyone who can be bothered.)

Why do I click on thee things?
 
So we've gone from a pope who was in the Hitler youth, to one who hobnobbed with a vile military junta! You couldn't make this up!
 
More at link. Benny wasn't in a position to do much about the nazis but Franky as an adult and Jesuit Provincial collaborated with the Junta.

A Subpoena For Pope Francis?
http://thebrokenelbow.com/2013/03/13/a- ... e-francis/
Posted on March 13, 2013 | 2 Comments
(UPDATED 20:58 EST)

Looks like Mother Church has screwed up big time. Hardly had the words “Habemus Papem” been uttered from the balcony above Vatican Square before Argentinian journalists were linking the new Pope, Francis 1, aka former Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio, to the Argentinian Generals’ dirty war against various leftists, liberals and anti-government activists during the 1970?s.


New Pope, Francis 1, has a troubled history during the years of the Argentinian junta
That war embraced torture, kidnapping, murder, the abduction and selling of children and, of course, the disappearing of opponents, the latter being something that the people of Ireland are not unfamiliar with. Thirty thousand people were “disappeared” by the junta – the so-called Desaparecidos – and their plight made the Troubles in Ireland look like a pillow fight at Harry Potter’s boarding school.

Those were the days when the Jesuits were more likely to be preaching the essential Christianity of liberation theology to the poor in places like Latin America than running $600 million a year colleges in the north-eastern seaboard of the United States.

Jesuit priests were often in the forefront of the struggle against the likes of the Argentine junta and sometimes they paid the ultimate price. A great pity then, that at the time Jesuit priests could not always rely upon their superiors for support in their dangerous defiance of the Generals’ brutality, superiors like Jorge Bergoglio, the archbishop of Buenos Aires.

The Guardian is tonight reporting this about the former archbishop and now new Pope’s activities in Argentina at the time the Generals ruled the country with an iron fist:

In his book, El Silencio, a prominent Argentinian journalist (Horacio Verbitsky) alleged that he (the new Pope) connived in the abduction of two Jesuit priests by the military junta in the so-called “dirty war”. He denies the accusation.

The same paper’s respected foreign correspondent Hugh O’Shaughnessy, an expert on Latin America’s history and politics, takes this allegation a step further and writes that Bergoglio covered up for the Argentine Navy, hiding political prisoners away on his island retreat, appropriately called El Silencio, so that a visiting Inter-America Human Rights Commission delegation would not discover one of the junta’s dirty secrets.

View this document on Scribd

It remains to be seen how consequential this history will get for the new pontiff but if anyone is serious about plumbing the bottom of this affair how about serving him with a subpoena to surrender all his records of that time? After all we can’t have alleged criminals believing that even the passage of forty years since their alleged offences means they will get away with it. No sir!
 
I hear that if you add up the letters in his name, it spells cxoswbr.

Now I've never heard of CXOSWBR before, but it obviously stands for "Cyrillic Xylophones Often Start With a Backwards R" which, as we all know, refers to the secret initiation rite for the Scotch-Bonnet Plugaroons, who obviously plan to steal the sugar packets from diners and pubs everywhere to complete their unholy mission of global domination...


...of...


...sugar....

(I couldn't help myself)

:lol:
 
I think I've got a conspiracy theory. I think this new pope is head of an organisation that serves its own ends, while maintaining a facade of benevolence, by brainwashing millions of people into believing they're being watched and judged by a non-existent entity. I believe this organisation protects its own agents with lies and secrets, even when they act abominably, and maintains elitism at the expense of often desperately poor subjects. It sounds crazy and paranoid, I know, but you just wait and see!
 
PaulTaylor said:
I think I've got a conspiracy theory. I think this new pope is head of an organisation that serves its own ends, while maintaining a facade of benevolence, by brainwashing millions of people into believing they're being watched and judged by a non-existent entity. I believe this organisation protects its own agents with lies and secrets, even when they act abominably, and maintains elitism at the expense of often desperately poor subjects. It sounds crazy and paranoid, I know, but you just wait and see!

Finally, someone else who can see "the truth" ;) :lol:
 
PaulTaylor said:
I think I've got a conspiracy theory. I think this new pope is head of an organisation that serves its own ends, while maintaining a facade of benevolence, by brainwashing millions of people into believing they're being watched and judged by a non-existent entity. I believe this organisation protects its own agents with lies and secrets, even when they act abominably, and maintains elitism at the expense of often desperately poor subjects. It sounds crazy and paranoid, I know, but you just wait and see!

I think you might be onto something there. ;)
 
Actually, I've had a rethink. I've decided my previous paranoid rant was brought about by a human predilection to see patterns where none exist, and to interpret otherwise disparate facts to support my predetermined beliefs.

Clearly, the Catholic Church is a beautiful and benevolent organisation dedicated to the well being of those who believe in and venerate the God of Infinite Mercy.
 
A refutation of some of the accusations levelled against the new Pope, from one of the alleged victims.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/mar/21/pope-francis-argentinian-junta-priest

Pope Francis did not denounce me to Argentinian junta, says priest

Francisco Jalics, who was imprisoned for five months in the 1970s, says he and the new pope reconciled in 2000

The Guardian, Jonathan Watts. 21 March 2013

Accusations that Pope Francis denounced two priests to Argentina's military junta during the 1970s have been denied by one of the survivors in a boost to the reputation of the new pontiff.

Francisco Jalics, who now lives in a German monastery, issued an online statement on Wednesday to clear up what he said were misinterpretations of his earlier comments about the role played by the pope in his five-month incarceration by the navy.

He said he was addressing reports that he and another Jesuit priest, Orlando Yorio, were imprisoned because the leader of their order, Jorge Bergoglio – as the pope was known until last week – passed on information about them to the authorities.

"I myself was once inclined to believe that we were the victims of a denunciation," Jalics said. "[But] at the end of the 90s, after numerous conversations, it became clear to me that this suspicion was unfounded. It is therefore wrong to assert that our capture took place at the initiative of Father Bergoglio."

The latest comments follow a less categorical statement that he made last week soon after the pope was chosen. In that earlier comment, he said he and Bergoglio had reconciled and "hugged solemnly" in 2000. But he also noted that he "could not comment on the role played by Father Bergoglio in these events".

Argentinian critics of the pope have continued to accuse him of wrongdoing, based on documents and old testimonies of Yorio, who died several years ago. Jalics' failure to deny this added to their suspicions.

But in the latest statement, Jalics said "Some commentaries imply the opposite of what I meant."

By contrast, his words on Wednesday were unequivocal: "The fact is: Orlando Yorio and I were not denounced by Father Bergoglio."

His comments are likely to quash many doubts, but in Argentina they are unlikely to go away completely given the frustration felt by some victims, leftist priests and government figures that Bergoglio has not adequately addressed the close links that the church had with the dictatorship.

While many accept that it was dangerous to openly confront the military during that murderous era, others feel that church leaders should subsequently have condemned the wrongdoing by priests who were so closely involved in torture and incarceration of political enemies that they have subsequently been jailed.

Bergoglio has never been accused of a crime. Vatican spokesman Federico Lombardi noted on Friday that on the contrary "there have been many declarations demonstrating how much Bergoglio did to protect many persons at the time".
 
Somewhere in a dusty corner of my mind, I remember reading an editorial regarding the 'potentials' prior to Benny getting the nod. There seemed to be a consensus that the job would go to a South American. I probably read this in the Grauniad, but Google is not my friend regarding this.

Could it be that all along, Benny was always destined to be just a temp, until it was a more suitable time for a South American to take the helm? That would be shifting us closer to a conspiracy, Shirley?

The Junta stuff from the 80's seems a little too distant, anyone remember anything from the 90's relating to scandal in the S. American Catholic community? I found the joys of MDMA around then, so I remember bugger all 8)
 
I don't think Benny liked anyone who was vaguely associated with the Liberation Theology movement in the Latin American church - and Pope Francie at least has a touch of that. So in that sense his election came as a bit of a surprise.

But if they wanted to move away from the sex and financial scandals that have plagued them over the years, that precluded them from chosing anyone from Europe, the UK, or North America.

Anyway, that's my theory of how Francis got there. And the Junta story seems to be running out of steam pretty quickly.
 
Yes it would do, since they must have chose anyone without a background.

But its still not `my` Pope....
 
I hear that if you add up the letters in his name, it spells cxoswbr.

That's definitely for real, 'cos only last night I was listening out for EVPs and i'm sure I heard one that said sdh eriucgriovg skjlhch cxoswbr sdroiughdgc.
 
There's also a finite if much smaller possibility that I might have been smoking something and the cat had just walked across the computer keyboard.
 
Did the Pope perform an exorcism?
http://www.breakingnews.ie/discover/did ... k.facebook
21/05/2013 - 15:01:15

Religious observers are asking: “Is Pope Francis an exorcist?” after an incident in St Peter’s Square.

In the clip below, you can see the pope laying his hands on the head of a young man after celebrating Mass.

The man heaved deeply a half-dozen times, convulsed and shook, and then slumped in his wheelchair as Francis prayed over him.

The television station of the Italian bishops’ conference said it had surveyed exorcists, who agreed that Francis either performed an exorcism or a prayer to free the man from the devil.

The Vatican was more cautious, saying Francis “didn’t intend to perform any exorcism. But as he often does for the sick or suffering, he simply intended to pray for someone.”

Fuelling the speculation is Francis’ obsession with the devil, a frequent subject of his homilies.





There has been an apparent surge in demand for exorcisms among the faithful despite the irreverent treatment the rite often receives from Hollywood.

In his very first homily as pope on March 14, Francis warned cardinals gathered in the Sistine Chapel the day after he was elected that “he who doesn’t pray to the Lord prays to the devil.”

He has since mentioned the devil on a handful of occasions, most recently in a May 4 homily when in his morning Mass in the Vatican hotel chapel he spoke of the need for dialogue – except with Satan.

“With the prince of this world you can’t have dialogue: let this be clear!” he warned.

Experts said Francis’ frequent invocation of the devil is a reflection both of his Jesuit spirituality, his Latin American roots – and a reflection of a Catholic Church weakened by secularization.

“The devil’s influence and presence in the world seems to fluctuate in quantity inversely proportionate to the presence of Christian faith,” said the Rev. Robert Gahl, a theologian at Rome’s Pontifical Holy Cross University. “So, one would expect an upswing in his malicious activity in the wake of de-Christianisation and secularisation” in the world and a surge in things like drug use, pornography and superstition.

In recent years, Rome’s pontifical universities have hosted several courses for would-be exorcists on the rite, updated in 1998 and contained in a little red leather-bound booklet. The rite is relatively brief, consisting of blessings with holy water, prayers and an interrogation of the devil in which the exorcist demands to know the devil’s name and when it will leave the possessed person.

Only a priest authorized by a bishop can perform an exorcism, and canon law specifies that the exorcist must be “endowed with piety, knowledge, prudence and integrity.”

While belief in the devil is consistent with church teaching, the Holy See does urge prudence, particularly to ensure that the afflicted person is not merely psychologically ill.

The Rev. Giulio Maspero, a Rome-based systematic theologian who has witnessed or participated in more than a dozen exorcisms, says he is certain that Francis’ prayer on Sunday was either a full-fledged exorcism or a prayer to “liberate” the young man from a demonic possession. He noted that the placement of the pope’s hands on the man’s head was the “typical position” for an exorcist to use.

“When you witness something like that – for me it was shocking – I could feel the power of prayer,” he said.

He said it was particularly symbolic that Francis’ purported exorcism occurred on Pentecost, an important feast day for the church when the faithful believe Jesus’ apostles received the fullness of the Holy Spirit.

“The Holy Spirit is connected to the exorcism because ... it is the manifestation of how God is present among us and in our world,” he said.

Italian newspapers noted that the late Pope John Paul II performed an exorcism in 1982 – near the same spot where Francis prayed over the young disabled man.
 
...Or it could just be that he prayed over a man who has a habit of going into convulsions?
 
Sounds a lot like the way congregation members can be overcome during evangelical sermons, it's a sort of hypnotic state induced by the stress and excitement, I believe.

Does this mean His Popeness will be making his flock speak in tongues too? Come on, let's have some snake charming.
 
Surprising words from the pope:

Pope Francis says Catholic Church must shake off 'small-minded rules' on abortion, homosexuality

Pope Francis said the Catholic Church must shake off an obsession with teachings on abortion, contraception and homosexuality and become more merciful or risk the collapse of its entire moral edifice "like a house of cards".

In a dramatically blunt interview with an Italian Jesuit journal, Francis said the church had "locked itself up in small things, in small-minded rules" and should not be so prone to condemn.

Its priests should be more welcoming and not cold, dogmatic bureaucrats. The confessional, he said, "is not a torture chamber but the place in which the Lord's mercy motivates us to do better".

His comments were welcomed by liberal Catholics, but they are likely to be viewed with concern by conservatives who have already expressed concern over Francis's failure to address publicly the issues stressed by his predecessor Benedict.

More at the link: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-09-20/p ... on/4970058
 
Zilch5 said:
Surprising words from the pope:

Pope Francis says Catholic Church must shake off 'small-minded rules' on abortion, homosexuality...

Yes, this subject was bubbling away during the Pope's Brazil trip over the summer - at the same time that the Archbishop of Canterbury was coming out with some similarly sensible and down to earth stuff about various things.

I mean, it's not exactly unqualified support, by any means - but it's a far cry from what's been said before.

The Pope and the A of C trying to talk sense?

The world's gone mad.

This is Slate's headline:

Pope Francis Is a Liberal
It’s not just homosexuality or birth control. He’s profoundly anti-conservative.

As I say, the world's gone mad - Bennie must be having kittens. :D
 
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