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Pope Joan (Aka Pope John Anglicus / Johannes Anglicus)

MrRING

Android Futureman
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So what is the historical verdict - do people think mostly that this is a fiction or UL directed against the Papecy, or a real occurance?

Pope Joan
John Anglicus was a ninth century Englishman. He travelled to Athens where he gained a reputation for his knowledge of the sciences. Eventually he came to lecture at the Trivium in Rome where his fame grew even larger. He became a Cardinal, and when Pope Leo IV died in 853 A.D., he was unanimously elected pope.

As Pope John VIII he ruled for two years, until 855 A.D. However, while riding one day from St. Peter's to the Lateran, he had to stop by the side of the road and, to the astonishment of everyone, gave birth to a child. It turned out that Pope John VIII was really a woman. In other words, Pope John was really Pope Joan.

According to legend, upon discovering the Pope's true gender, the people of Rome tied her feet together and dragged her behind a horse while stoning her, until she died. Another legend has it that she was sent to a faraway convent to repent her sins and that the child she bore grew up to become the Bishop of Ostia.

It is not known whether the story of Pope Joan is true. The first known reference to her occurs in the thirteenth century, 350 years after her supposed reign. Around this time her image also began to appear as the High Priestess card in the Tarot deck.

The Catholic Church at first seemed to accept the reality of Pope Joan. Marginal notes in a fifteenth century document refer to a statue called "The Woman Pope with Her Child" that was supposedly erected near the Lateran. There was also a rumor that for some years the chairs used during papal consecrations had holes in their seats, so that an official check of the pope's gender could be performed.

During the Reformation in the sixteenth century, the Catholic Church began to deny the existence of Pope Joan. However, at the same time, Protestant writers insisted on her reality, primarily because the existence of a female pope was a convenient piece of anti-Catholic propaganda.

Modern scholars have been unable to resolve the historicity of Pope Joan.


Story
 
I thought there had been no english popes.
 
Faggus said:
I thought there had been no english popes.

Pope Adrian IV (orig. name: Nicholas Breakspear) was English. He was pope from 1154 to 1159.

Thought that was common knowledge.
:)
 
I recall reading about this as a kid but the reference in the book was that Pope Joan went into labour/gave birth[?] on the steps of some church/cathedral in Rome.

Not that this helps in any way.
 
And he/she wasn't an Englishman but a born Roman.
Sounds nonsense
:rolleyes:
 
4 years possibly less fortean. Come to think of it, I had heard of adrian but relegated him to the back of my mind.
 
John Stalworthy's book on the subject argues that the case for her existance is just too good (or rather that in the ballance of probibility...well you can never be sure of anything.)

I personaly beleve in her but nnot in the stories that have grown up around her.

There's an extract here:

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/79/story_7905_1.html



Set against what had increasingly over the course of my investigation been exposed as a weak prosecution case are many positive reasons for believing that the She-Pope was more than a made-up story. The evidence of some 500 medieval writers cannot but impress. Senior papal servants, writing in books dedicated to their masters, endorse Joan unambiguously. Academics and inquisitors accept her as fact. Such widespread belief, filtering up to the pinnacle of power in the Catholic church, cannot lightly be dismissed as a Protestant plot, a fable, or a cipher for some other story of papal skullduggery. Why, for example, did Sienese pope after Sienese pope allow Joan's statue to stand in their home cathedral? The logical answer is that they regarded her, however grudgingly, as a predecessor.
 
I'v heared that because of the problems encounted with 'Pope Joan' when a new pope is being ordained, the cardinals pick him up and carry him over their heads while looking up his vestment. Saying:

'Testiculos habet, et bene pendente'

lit: 'He has testicles, and they hang well.'

As i've never been to a papal ordination I cannot verify this, but it does seem like the sort of archaic ritual that would be continued in the catholic church.
 
:rofl:

A little reductio ad absurdam there methinks? I'm not sold on Pope Joan either - many people want it to be true for for their own political ends.
 
rjm said:
I'v heared that because of the problems encounted with 'Pope Joan' when a new pope is being ordained, the cardinals pick him up and carry him over their heads while looking up his vestment. Saying:

'Testiculos habet, et bene pendente'

lit: 'He has testicles, and they hang well.'

As i've never been to a papal ordination I cannot verify this, but it does seem like the sort of archaic ritual that would be continued in the catholic church.


Now that's a motto!
 
This is not much of a source, but then swedish comic magazine The Phantom did a story with Pope Joan they let a swedish historican (I think it was Dick Harryson, but I'm not sure) do a couple of pages of the truth behind the legend. In short, Pope Joan is ficition from beginning to end. She turns up here and there, with different timeperiods for then her reign would have been. None can be confirmed; usually they can be proved false. Pope Joan was a medival tall story, playing on the holiness of the catholic church. People simply liked the idea of a woman rising to the most powerful position in the world, taking herself lovers and then, of course, dying tragically in miscarriage on the steps of St. Paul's Cathedral itself.

And the testicles story is just the same. A tale to riddiclue the pope and something to laugh over. They liked to heckle their rulers back then, too. :)
 
Straight Answers: The Fable of 'Pope Joan'


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

By Fr. William P. Saunders
Herald Columnist
(From the issue of 1/12/06)

One of the television networks recently ran a program about "Pope Joan." The television show was not very clear about whether this story was true or not. What is the Straight Answer here? — A reader in Arlington

Diane Sawyer, on Dec. 29, indeed had a "special report" about "Pope Joan," which was broadcast on ABC. Of course, the program was preceded by much commercial hype. The "special report" focused on an interview with Donna Cross who has written a book on this matter. Like The DaVinci Code, her interview wove together bits of historical information with half-truths, fables and other kinds of fiction. Of course, Sawyer also interviewed a supporting former nun, and briefly interviewed credible historians who discredited the story of Pope Joan. In the end, no definitive conclusions were made, which left one wondering, "What was the point?" This author was also left with an upset stomach.

The fable about Pope Joan surfaces in the writings of Dominican Jean de Mailly in the 13th century. From this work, another Dominican, Etienne de Bourbon (d. 1261), incorporated the fable in his work on the "Seven Gifts of the Holy Ghost."

The fable involves a talented and intelligent woman named Johannes Anglicus who wanted to pursue opportunities not available to a woman at the time, but were reserved to men. So, she dressed as a man. Disguised as a man, she traveled to Athens accompanied by her lover and pursued higher learning (again, that which would have been open only to men at the time). She then moved to Rome, where she taught science and gained a favorable reputation in academe. She eventually became a notary in the Papal Curia and then a cardinal. Upon the death of Pope Leo IV, she was elected pope, all the while keeping her disguise as a man. At some point she became pregnant by one of her lovers. (It is hard to imagine her gender remaining secret amidst her lovers and the chatty curia officials.) One day, during a procession from St. Peter’s Basilica to St. John Lateran, and somewhere between the Colosseum and St. Clement’s, she gave birth to a son. Needless to say, the procession stopped. After that, the legend has various endings: in one version, she died immediately; in another, she was bound to the horse, dragged about the city, stoned to death and buried; and finally in another, she was deposed and confined to do penance. One variation also asserts that her son became Bishop of Ostia. Please remember that all of the aforesaid is fiction.

Apparently, the fable had such an impact that many believed it to be true (just like the impact of The DaVinci Code). For instance, in the Cathedral of Siena, the busts of the popes line the nave, and her bust was included originally. Whether this was done as a joke or out of ignorance is left for debate. However, Pope Clement VIII, to prevent scandal and preserve truth, had the bust transformed into Pope Zacharias. Also, she was not among the official portraits of the popes that line the walls of St. Paul Outside the Walls in Rome.

Later, John Hus, the radical heretic of the 1400s, referred to "Pope Joan" to discredit the whole office of the papacy. He had proposed a more figurehead-type of papacy with the governance of the Church left to majority rule.

Keep in mind that even in the 15th century, scholars like Aeneas Silvius (Epistles) and Platina (Vitae Pontificum), using historical-critical methods, discredited the story as bogus. In the 16th century, scholars like Onofrio Panvinio (Vitae Pontificum), Aventinus (Annales Boiorum), Baronius (Annales) and others corroborated these findings. Even Protestant scholars found the fable untenable: Blondel (Joanna papissa) and Leibniz (Flores sparsae in tumulum Papissae). However, some Protestants, especially in America, have continued to use the fable to discredit the papacy, even though the fable is truly a fable.

The main proofs against the "Pope Joan" fable are as follows: First, "Pope Joan" is not listed in the Liber Pontificalis (the official documented listing of the popes which has chronological veracity). Supposedly, Pope Joan succeeded Pope Leo IV, a very saintly man credited with several miracles, who died on July 17, 855. Immediately Pope Benedict III was elected. There was some controversy because the Byzantine Emperor attempted to have his own excommunicated son, Anastasius, installed as pope. The imperial forces with Anastasius invaded Rome, seized the Lateran palace, and imprisoned Pope Benedict. The faithful of Rome, however, refused to accept Anastasius and rebelled. They freed Pope Benedict who was officially installed on Sept. 29, 855. Interestingly, Pope Benedict was merciful to Anastasius, and eventually made him an abbot. One interesting point is that Pope Benedict’s image appears along with the image of the Holy Roman Emperor Lothair on coins minted prior to Sept. 29; this point corroborates that Pope Benedict was recognized from the time of his election as the true pope. Therefore, there is no room for Pope Joan.

A few other sources of the fable place Pope Joan during other Pontificates. However, the extant historical accounts become even more specific and numerous as to events and dates regarding the papacy. Historically, there is no Pope Joan, who supposedly was pope by disguise for over two years.

Second, no mention of a Pope Joan arises until the mid-1200s. Given her dramatic "coming out," there should be historical accounts dating to the alleged time of her pontificate. Obviously, the legend was made up 400 years later.

Third, other possibilities for the source of the fable exist. St. Robert Bellarmine posited that the legend was brought from Constantinople to Rome to discredit the legitimacy of the papacy. Remember that with the decline of Rome and the western side of the old Roman Empire, the Patriarch of Constantinople believed he should be the head of the Church, which eventually was one reason for the schism between the Catholic and Orthodox Churches in 1054.

Baronius posits that perhaps the legend arose from the alleged effeminate weakness of Pope John VIII (872-82), although this charge is also disputed.

Two last points: The ABC "special report" mentioned a special papal chair (something that looked like a potty chair) used to verify the sex of the new pope; yet, the story admitted there was never an "eyewitness" account of this test. In reality, the newly elected pope was installed on a marble throne, oftentimes an ancient bath stool which were not uncommon in Rome. Such bath stools had been used for papal events long before any mention of a Pope Joan. Due to the long duration of papal ceremonies, the pope did use such a throne to relieve himself. To suggest otherwise is vulgar let alone erroneous.

Finally, the story mentions Bernini’s beautiful baldachino over the papal altar of St. Peter’s and how the bases of the columns have carved a progression of a woman’s face showing the pains and joys of child birth. The ABC "special report" insinuated that these carvings were of Pope Joan giving birth. Oh please. Bernini was a devout man, who is buried along the altar rail of the Basilica of St. Mary Major. A better explanation is what Jesus said during his farewell discourse to the apostles at the Last Supper: "When a woman is in labor, she is sad that her time has come. When she has borne her child, she no longer remembers her pain for joy that a man has been born into the world. In the same way, you are sad for a time, but I shall see you again; then your hearts will rejoice with a joy no one can take from you" (Jn 16:21-22). Despite our labors and sufferings here and now, we too should rejoice that at each Mass, Christ comes again to us in the gift of the holy Eucharist.

While watching the ABC "special report," I was irritated at the obvious anti-Catholic propaganda. Besides addressing the fable of "Pope Joan," Diane Sawyer and Donna Cross showed their feminist bent. They spoke of the mistreatment of women at the time, including wife beating and the inability to be educated. Diane Sawyer commented that "women were resolutely excluded from circles of power" by the Church, hence the motivation for Pope Joan to disguise herself. Even in the interview, Cross was smirky, with that demeanor, "Look what I uncovered about the mean, patriarchal Catholic Church." Oh will the bigotry never end. Next time, be aware of these ABC "special reports," especially at Christmastime. Change channels and buy some solid books that are historically accurate.

Fr. Saunders is pastor of Our Lady of Hope Parish in Potomac Falls and a professor of catechetics and theology at Christendom’s Notre Dame Academy in Alexandria.

http://www.catholicherald.com/saunders/ ... 060112.htm
 
Here's a new slant on the Pope Joan story - evidence from medieval coins suggestive of an otherwise-unacknowledged 9th century Pope named John or Johannes.

I'm including an image I'd not seen before that relates to the story of a female Pope.

Legends of a Medieval Female Pope May Tell the Truth

PopeJoan-A.jpg

This miniature artwork shows Pope Joan, who has just given birth to an infant during a Church procession.
Credit: The New York Public Library

Medieval legends claim that Pope Joan was the first and only female pope. And now, an analysis of ancient silver coins suggests that the ordained woman may have actually lived.

According to legends from the Middle Ages, a pope named John, or Johannes Anglicus, who reigned during the middle of the ninth century, was actually a woman, Pope Joan. For instance, a story from the 13th century written by a Dominican monk from Poland named Martin claimed that Pope Joan became pregnant and gave birth during a church procession.

However, there is much debate over whether a pope named Johannes Anglicus existed, much less whether this pope was a man or woman. The doubt stems in part from the great deal of confusion over the identities of popes during the middle of the ninth century. For example, in the oldest surviving copy of the "Liber Pontificalis," the official book of biographies of popes during the early Middle Ages, "Pope Benedict III is missing entirely,"study author Michael Habicht, an archaeologist at Flinders University in Adelaide, Australia, told Live Science.

Discovering whether Pope Joan existed may not only solve a religious and historical mystery, but also factor in to modern arguments over the role of women in the church. "The debate on female ordination in the church is still ongoing," Habicht said.

Now, Habicht has suggested that symbols on medieval coins show that Pope Johannes Anglicus may have existed, and so, Pope Joan may have been real as well. "The coins really turned the tables in favor of a covered-up but true story," Habicht said. ...

The research began when Habicht was conducting unrelated work investigating burials of popes in Rome. "In the beginning, I also believed that the story of Joan was mere fiction, but when I did more-extensive research, more and more, the possibility emerged that there was more behind the story," he said.

Habicht analyzed silver coins known as deniers that were used in Western Europe during the Middle Ages. Their name comes from the ancient Roman silver coin known as the denarius. "They are quite small, perhaps the size of a U.S. dime or quarter," he said.

The deniers Habicht examined were minted with the name of the emperor of the Franks on one side and the pope's monogram — a symbol made using a person's initials — on the other side. Habicht focused on coins previously attributed to Pope John VIII, who reigned from 872 to 882.

The archaeologist said that while some deniers possessed a monogram belonging to Pope John VIII, earlier ones had a significantly different monogram. "The monogram that can be attributed to the later John VIII has distinct differences in the placing of letters and the overall design," Habicht said.

These other coins may have belonged to a different Pope John — Johannes Anglicus, the potential Pope Joan, Habicht said. He noted several historical sources that suggested a Pope John reigned from 856 to 858. For example, the chronicler Conrad Botho reported that a Pope Johannes crowned Louis II of Italy as Holy Roman Emperor in 856, Habicht said.

"The monogram was the forerunner of today's signature," Habicht said. "Thus, we probably might even have a kind of signature of Pope Joan."

Habicht suggested that the sequence of popes in the middle of the ninth century should include Leo IV from about 846 to 853, followed by Benedict III from 853 to 855, Johannes Anglicus from 856 to 858 and Nicholas I from 858 to 867.

Previous scientific literature suggested that these coins are not fakes, Habicht said. In addition, "there is almost no collector market for such medieval coins," Habicht said. As such, "forgers are not really interested in faking them. Some years ago, some papal coins of the ninth century A.D. were offered at an auction sale in New York. Most of the coins were unsold and returned to the owner."

All in all, "some will embrace my study and find other evidence for female priests in the early centuries of Christianity," Habicht said. "Others will entirely reject the idea and make a big media noise against such claims. A big mud-pie battle may follow. It might go on forever."

Habicht detailed his findings in a book, "Pope Joan," via epubli Aug. 28.


FULL STORY (With Coin Illustration): https://www.livescience.com/63598-female-pope-joan-medieval-coins.html
 
What about the Porphyry Chair, introduced to ensure Pope John wasn't another Pope Joan ? That's one weird legend, even with Catholics involved.
 
What about the Porphyry Chair, introduced to ensure Pope John wasn't another Pope Joan ? That's one weird legend, even with Catholics involved.

This online article describes one author's take on the Pope Joan story and a description of the Porphyry Chair and its past use.

Pope Joan and the Porphyry Chair
by Bettye Johnson

... When I first began researching material for my book Secrets of the Magdalene Scrolls, I came across many items of interest regarding the deceptions of the Catholic Church and one is the story of Pope Joan, a woman. The Catholic Church alleges there was no Pope Joan and that it is a myth that began supposedly two hundred years after the event. I came across material that alleges she was born of English missionaries who lived in Germany approximately in the first half of the 7th century. ...

... There is a probability that the rule of the people electing the pope was changed due to this event by having a small selected group to elect a pope. What does this bit of history have to do with the Porphyry Chair?

A little known papal chair is the sella stercoraria, also known as the chaise percée or Porphyry Chair, which features a keyhole-shaped opening in the middle. The legend persists that its purpose was to verify the gender of the pope. In other words, to see if the pope had testicles. The chair was part of the papal coronation for many years. The newly elected pope would sit on the chair while a cardinal would get down and look to see if the pope was indeed a male. The cardinal had to declare that the pope did have testicles and therefore was a man. The cardinals would then lift him up while on the chair and carry the pope onward to his Papal Coronation. No pope has been required to do this since Leo X (1513-1521 A.D.). Pope Pius VII gave the last chair to King Louis XVIII in appreciation for returning many works of art confiscated by Napoleon. That chair is in the Louvre Museum in Paris with a duplicate chair is in the Vatican Museum and/or St. John’s Lateran.

There are disagreements regarding the origin and the use of the Porphyry Chair. None of the reasons put forth seem viable. Now why would a pope have to have his testicles viewed in order to prove he was a male? This is why I deem it to be a strong possibility that the saga of Pope Joan had everything to do with it. ...
FULL STORY: https://www.authorsden.com/visit/viewarticle.asp?AuthorID=37465
 
Someone with a better understanding of this please correct me if I'm wrong, but...

I remember reading in some Catholic encyclopedia or somesuch that - since the Pope should be the most worthy person to speak in God's name on Earth - all Catholics are eligible to be elected Pope, despite the fact that almost all Popes seem to be (male) practicing priests within the College of Cardinals.

Consequently, there's no rule-based reason a woman couldn't be elected Pope, and it's possible that one was so elected at some point in history. It's also possible that the enshrinement of a priest-oriented patriarchy in the Church that developed over the centuries would lead to condescending or downright damning stories about the sinful woman who dared call herself Pope, as well as myths about how the masculinity of those elected to that office is confirmed.
 
I remember reading in some Catholic encyclopedia or somesuch that - since the Pope should be the most worthy person to speak in God's name on Earth - all Catholics are eligible to be elected Pope, despite the fact that almost all Popes seem to be (male) practicing priests within the College of Cardinals.

Remember that there are different flavours of Catholic. My flavour doesn't have a Pope in the same way that Roman Catholics do, for example.
 
Remember that there are different flavours of Catholic. My flavour doesn't have a Pope in the same way that Roman Catholics do, for example.
Unified Old Catholic :twothumbs:
Meaning absolutely no disrespect (in fact your religion seems wonderful) but as someone with a Roman Catholic upbringing, educated by Jesuits in the old-school ways with mind-numbingly logical analysis of the faith, I note that ourunifiedcatholic.org says:
The history of the Unified Old Catholic Church is long and is identical with the Roman Catholic Church – in government, in doctrine, in principle, in authority, and its history, until the year 1702 A.D. Our history is the history of the Roman Catholic Church in every detail.
So if there was a female Pope before 1702, she was your Pope, too.
 
Meaning absolutely no disrespect (in fact your religion seems wonderful) but as someone with a Roman Catholic upbringing, educated by Jesuits in the old-school ways with mind-numbingly logical analysis of the faith, I note that ourunifiedcatholic.org says:

So if there was a female Pope before 1702, she was your Pope, too.

We have no problem with the idea of a female pope :) Very happy to acknowledge her as ours ;)
 
If your pope is anything like Pope Rhianna then I'll happily accept her as my pope as well.

Pope Rhianna.jpg
 
It strikes me as being a very fortean tale. And it sort of satisfies everybody. Like a woman could do the job perfectly well, so much so that no-one would suspect her. But don't get any ideas because it's against the rules of the world and if you try it you'll get your comeupance. Women know your place. The world might have got destabilised but now things are back to normal. Carry on please and let's not talk about it again.
 
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