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Possession & Mental Illness

Not Mutually Exclusive

"The aunt said that she knew that it was just the illness but when she went to the house again and saw the mess she was shaken. I have reassured the aunt that the niece is not possessed but I just need some advice please."
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You don't really know that she is not possessed. It is, of course, possible to be both mentally unbalanced AND possessed. Indeed, many persons who are possessed betray the symptoms of the mentally deranged.

An example of someone considered to be both is John Pope. See http://www.holygrail-church.fsnet.co.uk/John Pope de Locksley.htm
 
Re: Not Mutually Exclusive

Exorcistate said:
"The aunt said that she knew that it was just the illness but when she went to the house again and saw the mess she was shaken. I have reassured the aunt that the niece is not possessed but I just need some advice please."
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You don't really know that she is not possessed. It is, of course, possible to be both mentally unbalanced AND possessed. Indeed, many persons who are possessed betray the symptoms of the mentally deranged.

An example of someone considered to be both is John Pope. See http://www.holygrail-church.fsnet.co.uk/John Pope de Locksley.htm
I tried to reassure the aunt that she was not possessed because I did not want her flipping out as well having to deal with the fact that her niece may be possessed.
 
Sorry to drop a bomb here, but...

Where te f**k did this possession stuff come from? People with mental health problems can have just as wide a range of interests and beliefs as anyone else, which are then processed through the prism of their illness. If a person who is diagnosed with schizophrenia become obssessed with a certain football team, to the extent that they plaster all the walls in their flat with posters, scarves, rosettes and newspaper headlines, does this mean that they have been entered by the spirit of a dead footballer?

I'm sorry if sound rather indignant, but to talk about mental illness as being possible possession seems to me to take us about 200 or 300 years back, before any of the possible advaces that we have made in undertanding the experience of mental illness and possible ways to treat it.

It seems to me that what is being restated again and again on this thread is a fear of people who suffer mental health problems, in as much that they cease to be regarded as people. However difficult to understand, there is still a person inside that set of symptoms.

In answer to the question of 'how do I know she isn't possessed', well, to be honest, I would wait and see what the person in question says when they are given respite from their illness. I'm pretty sure that would help to clarify matters.

Also, I'd just like to point out that current estimates state that one in four people in Britain will, at some time in their life, experience mental illness. Imagine all of the stuff that you all get up to being looked at by uncomprehending observers, looking for evidence of your 'possession' or devience. Imagine the times that you have 'lost it' or come close to losing it, then imagine someone picking through that for evidence of evil, or Satan, or Lucifer or whatever.

I've been some funny places myself, I don't need some supernatural explanation clogging up the area. Ufonerd, I think your aunt woul have felt uneasy no matter what she had found in the house. Mental Illness is a difficult problem all round, especially if it is not focussed on as just that, an illness.
 
Yes, but ...

Contempt prior to examination is a bar against all information, a proff against all argument, ~ which cannot fail to keep us in everlasting ignorance.

Most genuine cases of possession usually involve a history of occult dabbling or involvement, but not necessarily always so. There are, for example, disturbed places which should be avoided. These may be referred to as "hauntings" or "poltegeist" activity. The fact is that if we don't know, then we don't know.

Nothing can be ruled out save on a scale of probability which, I'm afraid, things supernatural do not observe.

My advice is to retain an open mind and, if in doubt, call in an experienced exorcist priest should the disturbances persist.
 
I think that Markbrown is right... it sounds like your friend is schizophrenic, and these symptoms are part of it. /Schizophrenics often think that they have been possesed, that thier thoughts are being stolen or being implanted, and it's just another symptom. This possesion stuff is both demeaning to your friend, and it's nothelping her. If the aunt wants she can get the place exorcized, but it wont help much.
 
I'm feeling an odd sense of deja vu.

Maybe the message board is possessed?
 
You obviously don't get about much, Helen

(On this MB, that is. Never mind, you haven't missed much!) :)
 
The Lecky Mouse said:
Is intelligence and mental illness related, do animals have mental illnesses that are not caused by infections such as rabies.
Last time I visited the vet's with my cat, there was a dog in the waiting room, whose owner explained that it was having treatment for panic attacks. As these are caused by anxiety they are classed as mental illness. I found it amusing but maybe shouldn't have.
:) :)
 
I wonder if animals have these panic attacks in the wild or if such attacks are influenced by proximity to humans?

Carole
 
I think I can throw in a few comments on possession and mental illness, basically because I HAVE a mental illness: bipolar disorder which can have similar symptoms to schizophrenia at times in some people.

I know from experience I can change radically. I know from experience that I have horrible thoughts and feelings that don't seem to be my own. Conversely I also have wonderful ones that don't seem to be coming from me either.

I've heard voices and had various other supernatural effects like seeing ghosts and aliens that I'm told are part of my illness and I'm prepared to accept them as such, just as I'm prepared to accept that some or all of them may not be simply symptoms (particularly where others have witnessed the same things). But I've also hallucinated plenty of things that can't be explained by "normal" supernatural explanations either.

Just so you don't go thinking I'm a complete nut either, most of the time I'm basically normal. But when I'm having an episode I can understand that anyone with a mental illness could think that they are possessed. It DOES feel like it's coming from outside, but I do know that it's caused by the chemicals in my brain throwing me off balance. The medication ALWAYS sets me straight again. If it was true possession, I doubt that a few pills twice a day would get rid of an evil spirit/demon.

BTW, the person mentioned at the beginning of the post may not have schizophrenia. Hallucinations can occur in depression or mixed-manic states, as well as mania, and it's not uncommon for people to think they are being persecuted by demons or are actually in hell. (Not something I've experienced personally, but I've talked to people who have.)

Oh, following on from markbrown's comments about fear of people with mental illnesses, I know quite a bit of this comes from the media, also tv and movies where people with mental illnesses are nearly always portrayed as being violent. Rest easy, people. People with mental illnesses are no more violent than anyone else. You're just hearing about the violent stuff 'cause it sells.
 
93,

Sounds like possession by Xtianity.

>candles arranged like an altar, there was ornuments and >bottles smashed on the floor. When I was shown up stairs >there was the words Lucifer help writen on the landing wall, in >the main bedroom there was a pentgram drawn on the bed >with pieces of paper on each of the points. On all the mirrors >there was things writen in lipstick such as ( I WILL KILL YOU ).

You can garner that much info from a horror movie. Pentagrams, how terribly spooky. Lucifer, always worth defaming the Lightbringer. No extra or inexplicable info in any of that which points to a third party.

All very unfortunate and certainly the psychodrama of exorcism may be helpful for the 'possessed' but not without the extras of therapy and medication.
Insert your own horror stories of Xtians killing 'through kindness' in exorcisms. Those interested in a magickal exorcism may be interested in the account in Lon Milo Duquette's 'my life with the spirits'.

As for cleansing the house. Just get someone who knows what they are doing in a language and belief system that matches the clients needs.

93 93 93

Peter Grey
 
:eek!!!!: Many years ago dated alady with B. S. in clinical psychology. While waiting to enter masters program she took ajob in The Lima Forensics Unit- Criminally insane ,violent felons. She lasted three months -then dropped psych completely. She was raised Catholic , but was not at all devout, still she was totally convinced that a majority of her clients were indeed possessed.She is now an electrical engineer.
 
Pooka said:
:eek!!!!: Many years ago dated alady with B. S. in clinical psychology. While waiting to enter masters program she took ajob in The Lima Forensics Unit- Criminally insane ,violent felons. She lasted three months -then dropped psych completely. She was raised Catholic , but was not at all devout, still she was totally convinced that a majority of her clients were indeed possessed.She is now an electrical engineer.

Ah, how nice to see that superstition is alive and well in the 21st century. :rolleyes:
 
"possession" was the pardigm of biblical thru medieval times...

"mental illness" is the paradigm of today...

science and medicine is just another religion, imo...
 
Goldstein, you are right about the paradigms, however, the difference is that there is physical evidence of mental illness, but there is no physical evidence for possession.

These days they can see via MRI's and such the physical changes in the brain that cause many mental illnesses, and also locate the genes which cause them

There is no equvialent proof for possession

Science and medicine differ from religion in that they base their beliefs on research, not the opinions of holy men/women who often display evidence of mental illness themselves!
 
Maeve~ said:
Science and medicine differ from religion in that they base their beliefs on research, not the opinions of holy men/women who often display evidence of mental illness themselves!

And presumably researchers hold no subjective opinions? Or does this 'research' just pop into existence as objectively true and verified.

It's a very naive dichotomy you're drawing here.
 
FelixAntonius said:
BHS (British Home Stores), did some fancy 'dresses', for pets, a few Christmas's ago. They included a crown & robes. Unfortunately, the animal libbers didn't like them & they were withdrawn!!!!!:blah:

You can buy coats for sausage dogs that look like buns with kethup & mustard layers in. 8)
 
really just needed to say that..........

FelixAntonius said:
I also saw, many years ago, some crap (so called) research film, dating (I think)from the 1950's, in which a cat was induced to have a kind of nervous breakdown & was then induced to drink alcohol to improve it's self esteem.

....it always amazes as to what terror and suffering that is inflicted on animals purely in the pursuit of 'science'. :(
 
theyithian said:
FelixAntonius said:
BHS (British Home Stores), did some fancy 'dresses', for pets, a few Christmas's ago. They included a crown & robes. Unfortunately, the animal libbers didn't like them & they were withdrawn!!!!!:blah:

You can buy coats for sausage dogs that look like buns with kethup & mustard layers in. 8)

there is a huge market for this kind of stuff in America. last year when my mum came home from her hols in Florida she brought back some little 'superman' and 'princess' costumes for my cats. :roll:
 
http://paranormal.about.com/od/demonsan ... 031405.htm

This is on the frontpage at the moment but doesn't seem to have made it to a thread. All completely unverifiable, of course, but eerie and strangely compelling nonetheless. Turn it up nice and loud and let your imagination run amok with the cliched back story (Note: link in this text does work):

Exorcism in Russia
From Stephen Wagner,

EXCLUSIVE: Hear an extraordinary recording of an actual exorcism
A sixteen-year-old girl sits in a chair in a Russian Orthodox Church. She is being held down by her mother. Light filters in from high windows and the air is thick with tension and the smell of holy incense. A priest stands over her reading the rite of exorcism. The girl squirms in her mother’s arms, groaning and growling as if the priest’s words were a torment to her mind and soul. The girl struggles violently, her groans becoming inhuman howls and deep, guttural moans of psychological pain. Then she lashes out at the priest, and in a voice that seems not to be her own, spits words of defiance.

This is not a scene from a Hollywood production. This is a partial description of an actual exorcism that took place in a Russian parish on May 1, 2004.

You can hear an actual recorded excerpt from this exorcism HERE (Windows MediaPlayer required).

(WARNING: Do not listen if you are easily upset or disturbed by such things. Although there is no foul language, in English anyway, the sounds may be disturbing to some.)

This recording was made by Eugene Safronov, who is an assistant to one of the exorcists in the Russian Orthodox Church. Although he did not assist in this particular case, he was a witness, and has assisted another priest in many other instances.

Exorcisms on the Rise

The ideas of demonic possession and exorcism seem archaic and a peculiar anachronism in the high-tech, scientifically enlightened world of the 21st century. Most rational people regard the notion of demons as superstition. People who in the Middle Ages were thought to be possessed by demons and other evil spirits are now usually considered to be suffering from such brain disorders as Tourette Syndrome, schizophrenia, epilepsy or any number of psychiatric problems. At best, they are people with overactive imaginations under the negative influence of the occult and related media.

Continued...
 
Great to see this thread active again, here's the clinical criteria for "trance & possession disorders" as recognised by the World Health Organisation that I mentioned on page one (about 4 years ago!)

F44.3 Trance and possession disorders
Disorders in which there is a temporary loss of the sense of personal identity and full awareness of the surroundings. Include here only trance states that are involuntary or unwanted, occurring outside religious or culturally accepted situations.
Excludes: states associated with:
· acute and transient psychotic disorders ( F23.- )
· organic personality disorder ( F07.0 )
· postconcussional syndrome ( F07.2 )
· psychoactive substance intoxication ( F10-F19 with common fourth character .0)
· schizophrenia ( F20.- )

Online at: http://www3.who.int/icd/vol1htm2003/fr-icd.htm

You have to follow the hyperlinks, firstly "V F00-F99 Mental and behvioural disorders" and then "F40-F48 Neurotic, stress-related and somatoform disorders"
 
Although not a diagnosis as such, but rather a phenomenon that is symptomatic or characteristic of certain disorders, absence seizures have been identified as a distinct phenomenon from trance and possession disorder:

G40.3 Generalized idiopathic epilepsy and epileptic syndromes
Benign:
· myoclonic epilepsy in infancy
· neonatal convulsions (familial)
Childhood absence epilepsy [pyknolepsy] Epilepsy with grand mal seizures on awakening
Juvenile:
· absence epilepsy
· myoclonic epilepsy [impulsive petit mal]
Nonspecific epileptic seizures:
· atonic
· clonic
· myoclonic
· tonic
· tonic-clonic

G40.4 Other generalized epilepsy and epileptic syndromes
Epilepsy with:
· myoclonic absences
· myoclonic-astatic seizures
Infantile spasms
Lennox-Gastaut syndrome
Salaam attacks
Symptomatic early myoclonic encephalopathy
West's syndrome

G41.1 Petit mal status epilepticus
Epileptic absence status

To check it out, go to http://www3.who.int/icd/vol1htm2003/fr-icd.htm and choose "VI G00-G99 Diseases of the nervous system" then "G40-G47 Episodic and paroxysmal disorders". From there you can CTRL-F for "absence".

However, I can see the similarities, and the ICD-10 compilers would have perhaps done well to put "Epilepsy" in the "excludes" section of Trance and Possession Disorders (and vice versa). Notwithstanding this, the medical - in particular psychiatric - field is one of the areas were notions such as trance and possession are least likely to be entertained and I reckon that anyone with genuine absence seizures (and therefore one form of epilepsy or antoher) is very very unlikely to be diagnosed under the trance and possession disorders. Indeed someone presenting to a doctor with the symptoms described in the Trance and Possession disorders category is much more likely to be referred initially to a neurologist than to a psychiatrist. Epilepsy and other organic disorders would certainly have to be ruled out before a diagnosis of a functional disorder such as trance or possession disorder could be made safely.
 
Even some psychologists can be befuddled by attributing actions to the nature of evil, which to my mind almost puts them in the bracket of exorcists.

However, I came across this research into the nature of chemically-induced altruism or vice.

Human beings are highly social creatures. Because of this we are intensely interested in what others are doing, and why. We need to know who is good and bad and therefore who we want to avoid and who we can tolerate.

All of us recognize virtue and vice when we see it, with virtues generally being actions that benefit others and vices entailing selfish acts. The moral philosopher Adam Smith (also the "father" of economics) argued in his 1759 book The Theory of Moral Sentiments that virtue derives from our innately social nature in which we cannot help but share in the joy and pain of those around us. Smith argued that when we do things that cause others pain, we also feel pain. Because our biology causes us to avoid pain, we typically avoid such actions. Similarly, we enjoy pleasure and vicariously experience pleasure when we do something that brings happiness to others. This "fellow-feeling," or what we would now call empathy, is what maintains us in the community of humans. This is a critical requirement for a social creature. Smith was the first to clearly make the case that it is our social nature that motivates human virtue and is the reason why we vilify vice.

For the last ten years my lab has put this Smithian idea to the test by searching for a neurochemical basis for virtue and vice. We have focused on the chemistry behind behaviors because people seldom offer clear explanations for why they are doing what they are doing. Motivations matter because they ascribe meaning to actions. So, we have people make decisions that are virtuous or selfish while measuring their brain activity.

This research has largely confirmed Smith's argument for why humans can be virtuous. We have shown that virtuous behaviors are caused by the brain's release of the neurotransmitter and hormone oxytocin. When oxytocin is high, costly caring and helping behaviors follow. When we inhibit oxytocin release (for example, in experiments where I've administered testosterone to volunteers), virtue wanes and selfishness dominates. Oxytocin release makes us feel empathy and by doing so increases our sensitivity to the feelings of those around us. I recently published an article reviewing these findings


http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the ... od-or-evil
 
The horrific 1974 case of Michael Taylor. This shows what a dose of religious nutbaggery can really do.

It's a guy who is/was psychotic - nothing to do with possession. People like this are not uncommon. Most secure units will have a few people like this contained.


I really don't like this murder porn stuff. The guy narrating this seems to enjoy the details. Creepy fucker.
 
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So what sort of experiments or observations are required to demonstrate possession?

Do they work when looking in the mirror?
 
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