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Quantum Physics

rynner said:
coldelephant said:
We made up time, IMO it does not exist except as a word to describe things moving and changing...
That's a pretty big 'except'!

It's bit like saying 'We made up air, it does not exist except as a word to describe the winds and breathing...'! ;)


No it's not - air is there because there are atoms and so forth that prove it is there. It is substantial and can be perceived and felt.

Time on the other hand is just hands moving around a clock, us growing older, the changing of the seasons etc.

Time is just a word.
 
We made up time, IMO it does not exist except as a word to describe things moving and changing...
Time on the one hand, and movement on the other, are the warp and weft of space-time - you can't have one without the other. You can't talk about movement without using 'Time'. It may be an abstract concept, in that you can't directly touch it or feel it, but it's real nonetheless.

You could reverse your comment, and say that movement does not exist, it is only a marker for the passing of time! 8)
 
Claiming time is just something we made up to explain things moving and changing, is a bit like claiming space is something we made up to explain why some things are over there.

Or to put it another way, it's like saying we made up time to explain the passage of time.
 
Anome_ said:
Claiming time is just something we made up to explain things moving and changing, is a bit like claiming space is something we made up to explain why some things are over there.

Or to put it another way, it's like saying we made up time to explain the passage of time.


Time is an abstract thing as Rynner suggests.

It is not a physical thing you can touch, see, feel, smell or hear.

Look at your watch.

It is a mechanical device strapped to your wrist which is told to count (be it digital or no) it counts. It counts because it is built to count and because there is a battery inside it.

Time is not something that you see as octarine energy fluctuating around the face of your watch or even around cogs or wheels inside the watch.

What is time?

It is not a physical thing.

We saw things changing and growing and decaying and moving - we saw these things and then we said -

It takes four full moons when it is cold for it to get less cold and the white stuff on the ground to melt and for flowers to grow.

It takes four full moons when the flowers have grown to become hot, and it takes four full moons to become colder and leaves to fall off trees, and four full moons to get cold again.

The four full moons shall be called a month, and the cycle shall be called a year.

Also, since the suns shadow passes round our sun dial (that we use to measure the movement of the sun across the sky without looking at the sun and hurting our eyes) - we shall call the time the suns shadow goes round our dial one dia - or day.

We shall divide the dia or day into sections, half a dia, quarter of a dia....hours.

We shall divide the hours into less hours, little hours...minutes.

We shall divide the minutes into seconds, and seconds into micro seconds, and micro seconds into nano seconds, and nano seconds into pico seconds....

We have measured the movement of the sun and seasons and divided it into smaller measurements.

We have invented time.

Let time be a physical thing then - and let all who know it worship it and live their lives by it and know it exists and never ever question its existance henceforth.

;)
 
Good stuff, elephant.

I never graduated college, so I look to my peers for this kind of information.
 
coldelephant said:
We have invented time.

Or have we, going by what you've said in your post, merely invented a way of measuring it in a way that works for us? Time existed, after all, before any humans invented clocks to quantify it's passing ;)
 
Jerry_B said:
coldelephant said:
We have invented time.

Or have we, going by what you've said in your post, merely invented a way of measuring it in a way that works for us? Time existed, after all, before any humans invented clocks to quantify it's passing ;)
Early clocks attempted to replicate the astronomical measures of time.

But now we have atomic clocks, based on the vibrations of atoms. These clocks are so precise that they can show the errors in astronomical time (caused by changes in orbits due to gravitational interactions), and even measure relativistic effects between moving objects.

Now atoms have been vibrating away ever since there were atoms, ticking away the time that preceeded humans for billions of years. So the universe had the means of measuring time for most of its known life: all we did was give a name to Time.
 
time exists to prevent all events happening at once.
 
rynner said:
Jerry_B said:
coldelephant said:
We have invented time.

Or have we, going by what you've said in your post, merely invented a way of measuring it in a way that works for us? Time existed, after all, before any humans invented clocks to quantify it's passing ;)
Early clocks attempted to replicate the astronomical measures of time.

But now we have atomic clocks, based on the vibrations of atoms. These clocks are so precise that they can show the errors in astronomical time (caused by changes in orbits due to gravitational interactions), and even measure relativistic effects between moving objects.

Now atoms have been vibrating away ever since there were atoms, ticking away the time that preceeded humans for billions of years. So the universe had the means of measuring time for most of its known life: all we did was give a name to Time.


We did indeed invent many means of measuring time.

You just said that the universe had the means of measuring time.

Did it? What would it want to measure time for?
 
iirc time is the fourth dimension
so it exists for the same reason the other 3 do.
 
TinFinger said:
iirc time is the fourth dimension
so it exists for the same reason the other 3 do.


Yes? What makes you think that the other 3 exist?

Humans need to label things. The things are sometimes theoretical.

Take quantum physics for example - they speak of quarks and quorons, and dark matter and dark energy and energy we have not found etc.

First, the existance of dark matter and dark energy has not been proven - and they are still trying to find it.

Second, energy we have not found? Newton would be turning in his grave no doubt.

Lastly - quarks and quorons...has anybody actually seen them? If they have, why are we mucking about with electrons and spinning electrons etc when we could be mucking about with quarks and quorons right now?

Imagine...quarkicity, or quoronicity.

You could be a quornonical engineer.
 
coldelephant said:
TinFinger said:
iirc time is the fourth dimension
so it exists for the same reason the other 3 do.


Yes? What makes you think that the other 3 exist?
Simple. I think space exists because everything isn't all piled up in the one place. I'm here in my flat in Canberra, and you aren't. (A good thing, by the way. I admit I'm making an assumption that you exist, which may be a bit of a stretch.)

Time exists because everything doesn't happen at once. Causes happen before effects. I drop a ball, it falls, and it lands on the floor. It doesn't appear on the floor before I drop it. Nor does it fall after it's landed on the floor.

Just because there are a lot of theoretical constructs that we haven't found or proven does not throw into question the stuff we know does exist and have proven. Just because we haven't found the Higgs boson, doesn't mean there's no such thing as a table.

And while we're at it, abstract does not equal non-existant. Pain is an abstract concept, and yet I think you'll agree it's very real. Or maybe you won't. Most normal people do.
 
Hang on there though - theoretical does not mean real.

Also, just because there is space does not prove that time exists except as a concept we use to lable something else.

Yes I know some things happen before other things, but what about quantum physics? Things seem to happen all over the place in quantum physics, and all at the same time it seems - and as we are discussing quantum physics then this seems to be relevant.

How does time work in the realm of quantum physics?

Also, what about the chicken and the egg, since you referred to cause and effect.

Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

I think the egg by the way, I think it was a very small two legged dinosaur before or something.

How does space work in quantum physics?

Physicists do not understand what is pushing things apart, how small things can get or what is outside the universe - they don't even know for sure what the universe is or how it works, or why there is a big symmetrical red wall around it.

Physicists do not know if they can fold space or go in between dimensions, but they seem to think quantum physics might hold the key.

So what is this all about time and space?

Since physicists are still trying to understand their own (possibly outdated) laws and coming up with new ones (e.g quantum physics) - how do we seriously know about time and space?

I think that as they do not, then neither do we.

Going back to the original point of discussion re time - since you think it exists, and since you think that the universe measures it and has a use for it - show me what it looks like.

Is time energy or matter?

Physicists seem to think space is dark matter by the way, although there is still some debate about the matter (pardon the pun).
 
Going back to the original point of discussion re time - since you think it exists, and since you think that the universe measures it and has a use for it - show me what it looks like.
I suppose you could argue that the geological record of the earth is a measurement of time. You can measure how long certain beds of rock took to be laid down or how long major eruptions lasted. So scaling up you could say the formation and gradual destruction of galaxies could also be a physical measure of time in the universe.
IMO i don't think it matters weather its a physical reality like say having 15 grammes of time electrons as compared to it being a purely human invention. We us time as a measurement therefore it exists to us, it is real. I suppose its a bit like conciousness itself. Can you actually show me some molecules or Quarks of conciousness? But you can't deny that you are concious.
I really hope i put that properly it sounds much better in my head. (which is probaly where i should have kept it)
 
OK, this comes from a bored Friday afternoon musing and involves much shaky science and naive concepts of time and space.

I thought I'd share though :)

Maybe time is the Universe's inability to sit still. If everything could exist with no change to it whatsoever, then time wouldn't exist. However, as the universe is expanding, presumably because it was impossible for it not to expand, there's one source of change that is constant (Actually is the entire universe expanding at the same rate?) and therefore it must continue changing until the laws allow it to stop.

Speed does after all have an effect on time according to relativity. However, to something at a standstill, something moving fast would appear to change (ie experience the passage of time) slower...

So... Perhaps the matter in the universe is out of synch with something, something that equates to the speed of light. If everything accelerated to the speed of light, it would synch up and reach a perfect state - one of infinite mass and no time. Photons et al, maybe because they have no mass, are somehow synched - as soon as they are emitted, they are immediately in synch (unless otherwise manipulated on their merry way).

So, the universe was originally put out of kilter and the matter in it slowed, or maybe the matter in the universe was created slow, and will accelerate until it meets it's top speed.

Which would mean there's a force in the universe that accelerates eveything until it's in synch with some kind of "cosmic flow", time being an artifact of the difference between the flow and matter's current speed, creating change in the Universe. When it's in time with the "flow"... well that's when it reaches the speed of light and no-one knows what happens then...

So, we're all going to accelerate to the speed of light then become one with the universe... ahhhhhhh...
 
Mattattattatt said:
OK, this comes from a bored Friday afternoon musing and involves much shaky science and naive concepts of time and space.

I thought I'd share though :)

Maybe time is the Universe's inability to sit still. If everything could exist with no change to it whatsoever, then time wouldn't exist.


So, we're all going to accelerate to the speed of light then become one with the universe... ahhhhhhh...


I like this explanation best - thanks

I agree with that, if nothing moved or changed then time would not exist. Probably.

As for the speed of light bit...when does the speed of light stop and something else begin?
 
Maybe you become dark matter universe at the speed of light??? can only communicate with loved ones back in this universe using your own gravitational field :eek:

Possibly a bit silly that one...
 
if time didnt exist then speed would equal distance
obviously theres a moderator to this equation
so what could it be if it aint time?

as ive previously posted imho the study of quantum physics is truly a study of the effect that time has on particles and thus larger bodies
 
TinFinger said:
if time didnt exist then speed would equal distance
obviously theres a moderator to this equation
so what could it be if it aint time?

The same force that's currently (as far as we can see) accelerating the universe? I've even seen the acceleration put in the context of a mysterious force.
 
That doesn't make sense. (Not that it's the only thing on this thread that doesn't make sense.)

Time is a dimension that separates events in the same way that the spatial dimensions separate objects. While many things happen at the same time, not all of them do. For instance, as mentioned above, if I let go of a ball, this event is separated in time from the ball landing on the ground. The ball doesn't disappear from my hand and reappear on the ground in the same instant.

Now, the ideas of seconds, minutes, hours, etc, and even the word "Time" are labels we created. But just because we made up an arbitrary label for something, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The word "rhinoceros" is made up, but it represents an actual living animal. Similarly, the ideas of metres, feet, inches, etc are arbitrary in their definition, but they measure a real thing: space. And so it is with time. The definition of a second is entirely arbitrary, but it measures a real thing.
 
TinFinger said:
if time didnt exist then speed would equal distance
obviously theres a moderator to this equation
so what could it be if it aint time?

as ive previously posted imho the study of quantum physics is truly a study of the effect that time has on particles and thus larger bodies

What could you use to travel that way? Speed = distance sans moderator?

A plasma bubble only protects as an armour/shield enhancement - so what do you use to travel that way?

Mathematics would point in the right direction, and if engineering is affected by mathematics and physics then quantum physics would be involved somewhere perhaps.

How could quantum physics and sliding between dark matter or gravity affect time in the scenario of travelling through space?
 
my post was meant to show that time must exsist as speed obviously dont equal distance
and as ive previously posted imho particles only act the way predicted in quantum physics as they are being affected by the time they exsist in,thus making the subject more about time than the particles/waves themselves

sort of an indirect study

we ourselves would act in a quantum manner if every atom,electron etc all moved in the same manner
its just more obvious with simple states the structure of matter possibly makes up for the portion thats in a quantum state

i realise this is obviously just hearsay and most probably total bosh but well its worth a debate surely
 
found this..

COULD QUANTUM MECHANICS PLAY A ROLE in the workings of the conscious mind? Some physicists, like John Taylor of Kings College London, hold the negative view: they believe that information born at the quantum level would be overwhelmed in the warm, wet, and noisy environment of living cells. By contrast, other scientists, such as Stuart Hameroff of the University of Arizona, assert that under some circumstances quantum information could indeed be sustained at the cellular level. Hameroff points to microtubules, tiny rodlike proteins (only discovered in the 1970s) existing in all bodily cells, as a possible theater of quantum consciousness. These rods, according to Hameroff, might possibly serve either as waveguides for photons or as the host medium for persistent vibrational standing waves. In this model the action of many rods in neighboring cells, acting in concert, would constitute a physical matrix for thoughts or memories. All these ideas were discussed earlier this year at a conference held in Arizona. At the conference partisans of the quantum approach were a small minority. Even scientists who gave some credence to the quantum hypotheses had to admit that experimental searches for coherent effects in microtubule behavior had found nothing. (New Scientist, 20 August.)
 
Women do time-slicing rather than true multitasking. ;)
 
iirc theres quantum experients where the outcome can be tainted by the very act of observing

and that theres also been studies proving that you can tell when someones watching you,aparently claiming its your sixth sense

is this prove that there are quantum processes within human Consciousness
 
Yep - women are proof.

When they become mothers they have eyes in the back of their head.

You don't see the eyes, but they are there and they see everything. :shock:
 
Quantum physics puts new spin on Jonny Wilkinson's life
Will Pavia

He returned in glory to Kingston Park in Newcastle last Sunday, working miracles with a rugby ball and displaying a new messianic mane of golden hair.

What the 4,602 rugby fans who witnessed Jonny Wilkinson’s new haircut could not have realised is that it was but the outward manifestation of an inner journey to enlightenment.

The fly-half, already regarded by some England fans as a deity in his own right, says that he experienced an epiphany while reading about quantum physics. This in turn led him on a path to self-discovery, via the practices of Buddhism, to a sense of liberation from his anxieties over life, death and rugby.

All of this complex odyssey, from sub-atomic particles to the Middle Way, is unravelled in an interview with The Times today. It began after the Rugby World Cup Final in 2003, a game that Wilkinson secured for England with a now historic drop goal.

Even then, at the peak of his success, “I did not know what it really meant to be happy,” he said. “I was afflicted by a powerful fear of failure and did not know how to free myself.”

In the four years that followed came trials to test the patience of the Buddha. Wilkinson, his life ruled by a driving obsession to succeed on the rugby field, suffered repeated injuries.

In his anguish, he began reading about quantum physics. His moment of revelation came as he read of the thought experiment known as Schrödinger’s Cat.

The experiment was conceived by the Austrian physicist Erwin Schrödin-ger to demonstrate a conundrum at the heart of quantum physics: that a sub-atomic particle exists in two states. However, the act of measuring it effectively forces it into one particular state, rather as England’s discounted second-half try in the 2007 World Cup Final appeared to many fans to be both a try and not a try, until the referee called for a video replay.

Schrödinger sought to illustrate the strangeness of this phenomenon by imagining a cat in a sealed box with a jar of cyanide and a piece of radioactive material. There is a 50 per cent chance, at a given time, that the material has decayed to trigger the release of the poison. At that time, quantum physics says, the cat is both alive and dead.

As soon as one opens the box, the cat is either alive or dead, however. Observing it has made it so.

“It had a huge effect on me,” Wilkinson said. “The idea that an observer can change the world just by looking at it, the idea that the mind and reality are somehow interconnected . . . it hit me like a steam train.”

He realised that his entire world-view was bound up with a fear of not achieving his goals. “Quantum physics helped me to realise that I was creating this destructive reality.” This in turn led him to Buddhism, which helped him to overcome an abiding fear of failure, which he believes was rooted “in an even deeper fear of death”.

He said: “My motivation today has nothing to do with status, money or ego.” In his return to the rugby field on Sunday, after four months recovering from injury, he scored 22 points. As for his longer hair, it was, he said, “the new hairstyle, representing the new me”.

Yesterday Professor Peter Main, of the Institute of Physics, was delighted to learn of Wilkinson’s transformation via quantum mechanics, though “I think his interpretation wouldn’t be the mainstream physics interpretation”, he said.

Professor Main had a similar sort of experience in his student years over the “EPR paradox”, involving quantum mechanics, classical intuitions and physical reality, though it led him into physics, rather than into Buddhism. Nor did it help the professor to relaunch himself as a successful rugby player. Still, “the mere fact that Jonny Wilkinson was getting inspiration by reading about physics and enjoying it is wonderful”, he said. 8)

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/ ... 783833.ece
 
Quantum entanglement in photosynthesis and evolution

College Park, MD (July 20, 2010) -- Recently, academic debate has been swirling around the existence of unusual quantum mechanical effects in the most ubiquitous of phenomena, including photosynthesis, the process by which organisms convert light into chemical energy. In particular, physicists have suggested that entanglement (the quantum interconnection of two or more objects like photons, electrons, or atoms that are separated in physical space) could be occurring in the photosynthetic complexes of plants, particularly in the pigment molecules, or chromophores. The quantum effects may explain why the structures are so efficient at converting light into energy -- doing so at 95 percent or more.

In a paper in The Journal of Chemical Physics, which is published by the American Institute of Physics, these ideas are put to the test in a novel computer simulation of energy transport in a photosynthetic reaction center. Using the simulation, professor Shaul Mukamel and senior research associate Darius Abramavicius at the University of California, Irvine show that long-lived quantum coherence is an "essential ingredient for quantum information storage and manipulation," according to Mukamel. It is possible between chromophores even at room temperature, he says, and it "can strongly affect the light-harvesting efficiency."

If the existence of such effects can be substantiated experimentally, he says, this understanding of quantum energy transfer and charge separation pathways may help the design of solar cells that take their inspiration from nature.

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/ ... 072110.php
 
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