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Queensland Tiger

Chris McLean

Gone But Not Forgotten
(ACCOUNT RETIRED)
Joined
Aug 13, 2015
Messages
6
Hi! This is my first post on these forums. I've been reading FT since the early 1990s and it's long been my favourite magazine, so I was honoured to recently get a short article published in FT, about the Queensland marsupial tiger/yarri. I was limited for space, so had to considerably cut down the article for publication - it's a work in progress, possibly part of a larger book one day. It's certainly hard to do justice towards summarising the topic in such a small space, especially because it branches out beyond Queensland with connections to ABCs, thylacines, thylacoleos, giant quolls and the like.

Largely, my article was required to fall back on summarising and discussing the various animals - known and unknown - that may account for sightings in the yarri complex, which has already been done to varying extents by other authors. I had intended to end up focusing more on my own injection to the mix, namely possible extant quadrupedal carnivorous kangaroos, but had to cut this back by editorial request. For the sake of interest, below is the relevant section before being pruned for publication -

"That last point hardly lends credibility to my new suggestion that the cryptids encountered in some sightings might represent a living descendant of the powerful-toothed giant rat kangaroo or ‘Riversleigh killer kangaroo’, Ekaltadeta ima. This carnivorous or omnivorous animal is known only from a few Miocene fossils from northern Queensland, and would have been around the size of a large wallaby. Unlike a wallaby, however, it appears to have been a quadruped, running on all fours with relatively long, strong forearms, shorter back legs and a broad, sturdy head. Photos of the lower jaw bones have drawn obvious attention to the dangerous-looking javelin-tipped, tusk-like lower front teeth, which look like the stabbing weapons of a dedicated killer to most people. However, teeth of this relative size or smaller are not uncommon in vegetarian or omnivorous diprotodontid marsupials and are generally obscured by the lips and cheeks of the animal. In the case of modern kangaroos, they are smaller, have a blunter chisel tip and are used to nip off grass shoots and other vegetation. The teeth that have convinced many palaeontologists of E. ima’s largely carnivorous diet are instead found further back - the large serrated carnassial premolars [13, 14, 15]. There is (to the non-specialist eye) some very broad similarity here to the dental layout of the marsupial lion, which has distinctly elongated, bolt cutter-like premolars, with pincer-like paired incisors at the front. Indeed, the point that first drew me to consider an Ekaltadeta-like animal for inclusion in the yarri mystery was the realisation that from some distance, such an animal could look similar to a marsupial lion, albeit smaller and perhaps unlikely to be tackling any prey larger than a possum or rock wallaby.

E. ima was not the only large toothsome, quadrupedal kangaroo to have existed in prehistory – it’s just received most of the press. Balbaroo fangaroo and Nambaroo gillespieae (both known from the Riversleigh site) had large curved canine teeth in their upper jaws, which may have looked fearsome but were probably for display or sparring purposes according to palaeontologists [12]. The related group of giant rat kangaroos (propleopine kangaroos), of which E. ima is the oldest known species, branched out from the late Miocene to the Pleistocene, giving rise to E. jamiemulvaneyi (late Miocene), Jackmahoneya toxoniensis (Pliocene), Propleopus oscillans, P. chillagoensis and P. wellingtonensis (all Pleistocene). E. jamiemulvaneyi was nearly one and a half times the size of E. ima. P. oscillans, the best known Propleopus species, was probably the least carnivorous propleopine but was also one of the largest, around the size of a grey kangaroo. Mostly found in more southerly parts of the country, fossil remains have also been found in s.e. Queensland. Conversely, the similar-sized Queensland species P. chillagoensis is thought to have been the most specialised carnivore of the lot, though still omnivorous to some extent. Less is known of P. wellingtonensis, from New South Wales [16, 17]. Could an unknown descendant of these giant rat kangaroos have survived to modern times in the wilds of Queensland?

If these animals or their unknown descendants had bands of dark stripes (which are observed on a number of other small, living marsupials) and a bushy tail, they could easily fit some sightings. Some reports do mention kangaroo-like hind legs, but this is an observation that has sometimes been made of thylacines as well, despite its falsity (the resemblance is rather due to the tail and the manner in which it joins the hindquarters). I will be the first to admit that my giant rat kangaroo hypothesis is a very unlikely one, due to the great age of the only known remains, and lack of any known large intermediary descendants from post-Pleistocene times. Yet for the sake of considering all possible candidates we must include even remote possibilities, as with the thylacoleonids, until proven otherwise.

Although most other ancient kangaroos are believed to have been predominantly herbivores, they may not have been unthreatening to humans, if ancient myth is to be believed. A story recorded from people indigenous to the Lachlan River area (New South Wales) relates how their ancestors once had to contend with marauding groups of giant kangaroos, which sometimes chased down people and “without mercy crushed their victims with their powerful arms”. These kangaroos were eventually overcome by the shamanically-inspired use of fire to drive them over cliffs [18]. If such events really did occur in the distant past, the animal responsible could well have been the giant short-faced kangaroo, Procoptodon goliah, which stood more than 2.5m tall, and had large arms and clawed paws which were probably more than capable of crushing and tearing an adult human to death. Although not mentioned in the story, the feet and their large clawed toes would also have been lethal; modern kangaroos spar with each other, and defend themselves at close range, by grappling with their paws, balancing on the tail and kicking out with both feet, which can easily disembowel or at least seriously wound. Nevertheless, there is no indication in this story of kangaroos biting or eating the people they had killed, and the teeth of P. goliah are not those of a carnivore. Regardless, even modern kangaroos and wallabies will sometimes eat meat given the chance (ie. if meat is left out for the taking); they are not known to kill large animals for that purpose, but might occasionally eat a small lizard, for example. Perhaps these proud giants saw the similarly tall, bipedal humans as resource-competitors, invaders of territory, and a threat to be dispatched? They certainly had the size to do something about it."
 
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Another thing which I should have noted in my article, regarding quolls...
There are two forms of the largest known quoll, Dasyurus maculatus (spotted-tailed quoll, tiger quoll), in Queensland. Dasyurus maculatus maculatus is the more widespread form, existing from Tasmania north through the s.e. of the mainland up along the east to s.e. Qld. From there we see a large gap before getting to populations of the slightly smaller form, D. maculatus gracilis, in far n.e. Qld. (For the record, they are diminishing throughout their range, and are now especially scarce in s.e. Australia, sightings on wildlife cams being big news.) So, any sightings of 'Queensland tigers' or 'yarris' outside of those patches almost certainly are not a confusion with D. maculatus of either form.

One last point before signing off. For reasons unknown the published article did not use any of the pictures I had suggested, and some of these were selected to illustrate certain facets of the animals, which I didn't think were well-served by the photos used in the printed version.
Here are links for the pictures I'd selected, even though I didn't expect a picture of every one could be included for space reasons.
Thylacinus cynocephalus - thylacine, marsupial wolf (we all know what they look like, but this is a nice photo of a few animals together)
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Thylacines.jpg
and

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Tasmanian_tiger.jpg

Dasyurus maculatus - spoted-tailed quoll (the picture used in print is of a very dainty-looking specimen, probably a female, possibly the gracilis form - beautiful, but doesn't really show the imposing bulk of larger males)
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Dasyurus_maculatus.jpg
plus a great shot showing the scary side -
http://s878.photobucket.com/user/rainwalker_51/media/TigerQuoll-1.jpg.html

Dendrolagus bennettianus (Bennett’s tree kangaroo)
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bennetts_Tree_Kangaroo_Kimberley_NQld.JPG

Hemigalus derbyanus (banded palm civet)
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Banded_Palm_Civet.png

Thylacoleo carnifex - marsupial lion
http://it.paleozoic.wikia.com/wiki/Thylacoleo?file=Thylacoleo.jpg

or
http://romanyevseyev.deviantart.com/art/Thylacoleo-carnifex-359141974

Ekaltadeta ima - giant rat kangaroo, skull
http://www.ljplus.ru/img4/d/o/doctor_insulin/ekaltadeta_ima_skull.jpg

My own rough attempt at recreating the possible appearance of a propleopine kangaroo -
giant rat kangaroo interpretative reconstruction.jpg

I may have made the lower incisors jut out a bit too far, but it's still a modest depiction compared to some of the fanciful artistic renderings I've seen online of these animals ;)
This is a little similar to reconstructions done by an Australian palaeoartist who shall remain nameless; I contacted her to ask if I could use one of her paintings for this article, but after explaining what FT was and what I was writing about, she never replied to further e-mails. So, I was forced to give it a shot myself.
 
Hi! This is my first post on these forums. I've been reading FT since the early 1990s and it's long been my favourite magazine, so I was honoured to recently get a short article published in FT, about the Queensland marsupial tiger/yarri. I was limited for space, so had to considerably cut down the article for publication - it's a work in progress, possibly part of a larger book one day. It's certainly hard to do justice towards summarising the topic in such a small space, especially because it branches out beyond Queensland with connections to ABCs, thylacines, thylacoleos, giant quolls and the like.

Largely, my article was required to fall back on summarising and discussing the various animals - known and unknown - that may account for sightings in the yarri complex, which has already been done to varying extents by other authors. I had intended to end up focusing more on my own injection to the mix, namely possible extant quadrupedal carnivorous kangaroos, but had to cut this back by editorial request. For the sake of interest, below is the relevant section before being pruned for publication -

"That last point hardly lends credibility to my new suggestion that the cryptids encountered in some sightings might represent a living descendant of the powerful-toothed giant rat kangaroo or ‘Riversleigh killer kangaroo’, Ekaltadeta ima. This carnivorous or omnivorous animal is known only from a few Miocene fossils from northern Queensland, and would have been around the size of a large wallaby. Unlike a wallaby, however, it appears to have been a quadruped, running on all fours with relatively long, strong forearms, shorter back legs and a broad, sturdy head. Photos of the lower jaw bones have drawn obvious attention to the dangerous-looking javelin-tipped, tusk-like lower front teeth, which look like the stabbing weapons of a dedicated killer to most people. However, teeth of this relative size or smaller are not uncommon in vegetarian or omnivorous diprotodontid marsupials and are generally obscured by the lips and cheeks of the animal. In the case of modern kangaroos, they are smaller, have a blunter chisel tip and are used to nip off grass shoots and other vegetation. The teeth that have convinced many palaeontologists of E. ima’s largely carnivorous diet are instead found further back - the large serrated carnassial premolars [13, 14, 15]. There is (to the non-specialist eye) some very broad similarity here to the dental layout of the marsupial lion, which has distinctly elongated, bolt cutter-like premolars, with pincer-like paired incisors at the front. Indeed, the point that first drew me to consider an Ekaltadeta-like animal for inclusion in the yarri mystery was the realisation that from some distance, such an animal could look similar to a marsupial lion, albeit smaller and perhaps unlikely to be tackling any prey larger than a possum or rock wallaby.

E. ima was not the only large toothsome, quadrupedal kangaroo to have existed in prehistory – it’s just received most of the press. Balbaroo fangaroo and Nambaroo gillespieae (both known from the Riversleigh site) had large curved canine teeth in their upper jaws, which may have looked fearsome but were probably for display or sparring purposes according to palaeontologists [12]. The related group of giant rat kangaroos (propleopine kangaroos), of which E. ima is the oldest known species, branched out from the late Miocene to the Pleistocene, giving rise to E. jamiemulvaneyi (late Miocene), Jackmahoneya toxoniensis (Pliocene), Propleopus oscillans, P. chillagoensis and P. wellingtonensis (all Pleistocene). E. jamiemulvaneyi was nearly one and a half times the size of E. ima. P. oscillans, the best known Propleopus species, was probably the least carnivorous propleopine but was also one of the largest, around the size of a grey kangaroo. Mostly found in more southerly parts of the country, fossil remains have also been found in s.e. Queensland. Conversely, the similar-sized Queensland species P. chillagoensis is thought to have been the most specialised carnivore of the lot, though still omnivorous to some extent. Less is known of P. wellingtonensis, from New South Wales [16, 17]. Could an unknown descendant of these giant rat kangaroos have survived to modern times in the wilds of Queensland?

If these animals or their unknown descendants had bands of dark stripes (which are observed on a number of other small, living marsupials) and a bushy tail, they could easily fit some sightings. Some reports do mention kangaroo-like hind legs, but this is an observation that has sometimes been made of thylacines as well, despite its falsity (the resemblance is rather due to the tail and the manner in which it joins the hindquarters). I will be the first to admit that my giant rat kangaroo hypothesis is a very unlikely one, due to the great age of the only known remains, and lack of any known large intermediary descendants from post-Pleistocene times. Yet for the sake of considering all possible candidates we must include even remote possibilities, as with the thylacoleonids, until proven otherwise.

Although most other ancient kangaroos are believed to have been predominantly herbivores, they may not have been unthreatening to humans, if ancient myth is to be believed. A story recorded from people indigenous to the Lachlan River area (New South Wales) relates how their ancestors once had to contend with marauding groups of giant kangaroos, which sometimes chased down people and “without mercy crushed their victims with their powerful arms”. These kangaroos were eventually overcome by the shamanically-inspired use of fire to drive them over cliffs [18]. If such events really did occur in the distant past, the animal responsible could well have been the giant short-faced kangaroo, Procoptodon goliah, which stood more than 2.5m tall, and had large arms and clawed paws which were probably more than capable of crushing and tearing an adult human to death. Although not mentioned in the story, the feet and their large clawed toes would also have been lethal; modern kangaroos spar with each other, and defend themselves at close range, by grappling with their paws, balancing on the tail and kicking out with both feet, which can easily disembowel or at least seriously wound. Nevertheless, there is no indication in this story of kangaroos biting or eating the people they had killed, and the teeth of P. goliah are not those of a carnivore. Regardless, even modern kangaroos and wallabies will sometimes eat meat given the chance (ie. if meat is left out for the taking); they are not known to kill large animals for that purpose, but might occasionally eat a small lizard, for example. Perhaps these proud giants saw the similarly tall, bipedal humans as resource-competitors, invaders of territory, and a threat to be dispatched? They certainly had the size to do something about it."


G'day Chris, the dentition of both E. ima and Gray's Rat Kangaroo (Bettongia grayii) are certainly similar, and they both share a common ancestor, but the incisors in the bottom jaw of B. grayii indicate more of a vegetarian diet. The Dog like teeth of the upper incisors in both E.ima, B. grayii throws that hypothesis of mine into conjecture though, especially looking at the robustness of the zygomatic arch and ramus on E. ima which indicates the sheer crushing power available to E.ima.


I note also that T.carnifex and E.ima both had similar sized lower incisors




kangaroo-fig4.jpg



The fact that the last giant rat kangaroo died out only 50,000 years ago is sufficient enough to question if that is the case i.e extinct, or extanct - plus the fact that the Old People have mythology of a large, black furred short faced kangaroo that used to kill them, puts the head into somewhat of a spin. The marauding animal must have been exceedingly large as the only method of killing them, was to spear them by climbing a tree.


There are well known incidences of sightings of large cats all over Australia which makes me question not somebody elses theories, but confirms my own belief that science is erring on the conservative side of this question.


Good luck with it all Chris.
 
Chris, have you got a publisher for your book? CFZ Press may be interested in publishing it.
 
Hi MungomanII,
The lower incisors - at least in profile - are similarly large in many diprotodontids (ie. wombats, kangaroos, possums, Thyalcoleo), but those of Ekaltadeta ima are particularly impressive, and were more 'pointy' as opposed to the chisel-tip seen on modern vegetarian diprontodontids. However, it's not those incisors that speak of carnivory, even though they are certainly what first catches the attention. It's the premolars which, like the incisors, are somewhat similar to those of Thylacoleo but not as impressive.
Anyway, I'm no expert on these matters but I have read all of the relevant journal papers and there does appear to be strong consensus that Ekaltadeta was carnivorous, with Propleopus species being more omnivorous but still with carnivorous tendencies.
Re: human-killing black furred short faced kangaroo in the mythology, are you referring to what I wrote above or is this something else I haven't heard about? If so, please share where you heard or read this! I am very much interested in collecting stories like that as long as I can reference their source properly. (The story I mentioned didn't say they were black, which makes me think you're talking of a different story I'm unfamiliar with.) That story in the addendum to my article probably would have referred to Procoptodon goliah as written above, which is another creature entirely and would appear to have been a vegetarian, so I doubt they would have killed humans for food, probably as a territorial thing; also it was bidepal. Curiously, there was a paper published recently that came to the conclusion, based on known anatomy, that P. goliah (which had feet comprised of a single huge toe) would have actualy walked like a human, which coupled with the short, vaguely human-like face would have reinforced the seeing of these creatures as kangaroo-men. But then again, in Australian indigenous dreaming mythology, all animals were once 'people'. Just that in this case they did kinda look and move like very weird people! I'm still finding that gait hard to picture - it seems really ungainly for a creature built that way to walk like that.

And hi Lord Mungrove,
I don't have a publisher at this stage because it's all up in the air, but thanks for the tip. If it comes to anything I will think of CFZ first. However, recently I met an older fellow who used to be involved with Australian Rare Fauna Research in their heyday, and he had been thinking of doing a book more or less covering the same ground. He has a lot of information collected over the years that has never been published, he is passionate and knowledgeable about our flora and fauna and very level-headed, and I really like and respect him, so I would give him precedence for doing a book like this (ie. primarily about the marsupial lion - I'm not sure if he would want to divert into the other areas such as Qld tiger, mainland thylacines, giant quolls, carnivorous quadrupedal kangaroos etc.) Maybe we will end up collaborating somehow, who knows, but I will encourage him to get his book done either way.
 
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Hi MungomanII,
The lower incisors - at least in profile - are similarly large in many diprotodontids (ie. wombats, kangaroos, possums, Thyalcoleo), but those of Ekaltadeta ima are particularly impressive, and were more 'pointy' as opposed to the chisel-tip seen on modern vegetarian diprontodontids. However, it's not those incisors that speak of carnivory, even though they are certainly what first catches the attention. It's the premolars which, like the incisors, are somewhat similar to those of Thylacoleo but not as impressive.
Anyway, I'm no expert on these matters but I have read all of the relevant journal papers and there does appear to be strong consensus that Ekaltadeta was carnivorous, with Propleopus species being more omnivorous but still with carnivorous tendencies.
Re: human-killing black furred short faced kangaroo in the mythology, are you referring to what I wrote above or is this something else I haven't heard about? If so, please share where you heard or read this! I am very much interested in collecting stories like that as long as I can reference their source properly. (The story I mentioned didn't say they were black, which makes me think you're talking of a different story I'm unfamiliar with.) That story in the addendum to my article probably would have referred to Procoptodon goliah as written above, which is another creature entirely and would appear to have been a vegetarian, so I doubt they would have killed humans for food, probably as a territorial thing; also it was bidepal. Curiously, there was a paper published recently that came to the conclusion, based on known anatomy, that P. goliah (which had feet comprised of a single huge toe) would have actualy walked like a human, which coupled with the short, vaguely human-like face would have reinforced the seeing of these creatures as kangaroo-men. But then again, in Australian indigenous dreaming mythology, all animals were once 'people'. Just that in this case they did kinda look and move like very weird people! I'm still finding that gait hard to picture - it seems really ungainly for a creature built that way to walk like that.

And hi Lord Mungrove,
I don't have a publisher at this stage because it's all up in the air, but thanks for the tip. If it comes to anything I will think of CFZ first. However, recently I met an older fellow who used to be involved with Australian Rare Fauna Research in their heyday, and he had been thinking of doing a book more or less covering the same ground. He has a lot of information collected over the years that has never been published, he is passionate and knowledgeable about our flora and fauna and very level-headed, and I really like and respect him, so I would give him precedence for doing a book like this (ie. primarily about the marsupial lion - I'm not sure if he would want to divert into the other areas such as Qld tiger, mainland thylacines, giant quolls, carnivorous quadrupedal kangaroos etc.) Maybe we will end up collaborating somehow, who knows, but I will encourage him to get his book done either way.



G'day Chris,

I was brought to an awareness of mythology of the Old Ones, mainly through camp fire conversations while driving an old ACCO in the seventies, freighting sheeps foot rollers through the top end of South Australia for the Highways department. Writers like Patricia Wrightson, Ainslie Roberts, a series of books diarising a survey through the top end written and released in 1932, and through books written by Percy Trezise and illustrated by an Aboriginal fellow called Dick Roughsey fleshed out my library of Australian mythology- the majority of these illustrated books by Roughsey and Trezise are for children - but they are based on Aboriginal myth.

In one of these books, there was mention of a large, black furred, short faced kangaroo that was known to kill the aboriginal people by hugging them, with the only way of confronting and killing these rogue buggers was to climb a tree, out of reach, and then spear them from this height.


I found that the mythology, related through oral tradition, to have more than a grain of truth, due to the method of learning the myth. The technique was for the children to be told the myth by their parents, Aunts and Uncles, then the children to tell the myth back to the Grandparents, which would reflect back on the skill and word for word recounting of the parent.


There is the myth of Mungoon-gali, the giant goanna, which might just confirm reality in the shape of Megalania prisca, which prior to 40,000 years ago was extant and known by the Old Ones, Ditto the family of Sthenurinae, which P. goliah belonged to.


Unfortunately, and with regret, I can't reference where and when my personal recollection of Aboriginal Myths originated, in a Harvard method Chris, and therefore it won't be of any help to you in compiling the information desired by you for your article on the Queensland Tiger.
 
Thanks anyway mate, that at least gives me some idea that is was printed somewhere, so I'll find it one of these days (hopefully!).
By the way, I should have been clearer - my book idea was to be primarily about the marsupial lions (both from a zoological perspective, and the "might they still be around?" perspective), with the Qld tiger stuff being something discussed within as a possible connection to that, rather than as the main subject of the book.
 
Thanks anyway mate, that at least gives me some idea that is was printed somewhere, so I'll find it one of these days (hopefully!).
By the way, I should have been clearer - my book idea was to be primarily about the marsupial lions (both from a zoological perspective, and the "might they still be around?" perspective), with the Qld tiger stuff being something discussed within as a possible connection to that, rather than as the main subject of the book.


Well Chris, I don't know much at all about the Queensland Tiger, except that this is a bloody big country with some very impenetrable country, and we have Fauna and Flora that is extremely habitat specific, but I've had a couple of experiences that made me go hmmm...Once as a teenager just north of Goulburn, where I watched for ten minutes or so, a large sable animal, small eared and short muzzled, with a tail as long as it's body, held horizontally to the ground, walking guardedly up a gully to get to an old growth area that went for miles and miles, and again, out west at the Willandra Lakes where I came across bloody big cat paw prints (3" square) which I photographed - so I keep an open mind on such things of legend mate.

If you want photo's I can PM them to you, plus general photo's of surrounding countryside - if it'll help.
 
Can't use the quote function anymore but,

I don't think we do know what a living thylacine looked like anymore.
 
Would love to see those prints, please do PM me! Interesting sighting you reported, MungomanII. When you say "large" how large do you mean?
oldrover, curious why you say that? There are photos and film - black and white, but they give a good idea of what they looked like (which taxidermy specimens I've seen don't). I don't at all believe they became extinct when officially declared as such, and I know this only counts as anecdotal evidence, but a good friend and scientist who is an excellent observer has had two clear, unequivocal sightings in the recent past, on the mainland no less (Victoria, two different locations), both times with other people who saw the same thing. I trust his judgement entirely on flora and fauna, so that's good enough for me even if it's unlikely to be so for anyone else. I can't claim they are definitely still hanging on somewhere, but I have confidence they did continue to survive until at least very recently!
 
Would love to see those prints, please do PM me! Interesting sighting you reported, MungomanII. When you say "large" how large do you mean?
oldrover, curious why you say that? There are photos and film - black and white, but they give a good idea of what they looked like (which taxidermy specimens I've seen don't). I don't at all believe they became extinct when officially declared as such, and I know this only counts as anecdotal evidence, but a good friend and scientist who is an excellent observer has had two clear, unequivocal sightings in the recent past, on the mainland no less (Victoria, two different locations), both times with other people who saw the same thing. I trust his judgement entirely on flora and fauna, so that's good enough for me even if it's unlikely to be so for anyone else. I can't claim they are definitely still hanging on somewhere, but I have confidence they did continue to survive until at least very recently!


Here's the surrounding Countryside Chris, plus an aerial shot of where I saw the gully cat from Google earth.


Gibraltar2.jpg


The gully is the raw one, to the left, next to the wombat burrows.

IMG_0057.jpg

IMG_0053.jpg
IMG_0052.jpg
IMG_0006.jpg
IMG_0048.jpg


The photo's above give the impression of the majority of the area, starting with the flats, leading up to the grassland, which lead up to the stands of Cyprus pine (Callitris sp.) where I came across the print


IMG_9999.jpg






Below is the print of the Thylacine, which exhibits some similarities, except for the lack of claw indentations.




Thylacine-footprint.png
 
Intriguing! Just to be clear, the sighting and the finding of the print are two different times and places, right? I got confused at first (sick, mind not working 100%) and thought you meant you found prints in the area shortly after seeing the animal.
 
G'day Chris, the sighting was outside of Goulburn in 1974, and the paw print was 30 years later.

Here's a photo of a an adze found at Lake Mungo made of that Brisbane blue stone



IMG_0047.jpg
 
oldrover, curious why you say that? There are photos and film - black and white, but they give a good idea of what they looked like (which taxidermy specimens I've seen don't). I don't at all believe they became extinct when officially declared as such, and I know this only counts as anecdotal evidence, but a good friend and scientist who is an excellent observer has had two clear, unequivocal sightings in the recent past, on the mainland no less (Victoria, two different locations), both times with other people who saw the same thing. I trust his judgement entirely on flora and fauna, so that's good enough for me even if it's unlikely to be so for anyone else. I can't claim they are definitely still hanging on somewhere, but I have confidence they did continue to survive until at least very recently!

Apparently you press reply to make the quotes come up these days.

Hi Chris,

I completely agree with what you say regarding the mounted specimens. They are truly lousy based on the photos I've seen, and the example in London's Natural History Museum.

There is one half decent one though;

http://s1170.photobucket.com/user/revotisThartmannIII/media/thylacinepostcard.jpg.html

And that isn't great.

There's one massive problem for me though with thylacine descriptions from recent years, and that's the colour. As I'm sure you know they were grey. Yet witness reports and descriptions you read these days tend to describe them as being or having been coloured like the faded example in the photo above.

Of all the thylacine reports I've read, I've only ever found one that mentioned the animal being grey.
 
Apparently you press reply to make the quotes come up these days.

Hi Chris,

I completely agree with what you say regarding the mounted specimens. They are truly lousy based on the photos I've seen, and the example in London's Natural History Museum.

There is one half decent one though;

http://s1170.photobucket.com/user/revotisThartmannIII/media/thylacinepostcard.jpg.html

And that isn't great.

There's one massive problem for me though with thylacine descriptions from recent years, and that's the colour. As I'm sure you know they were grey. Yet witness reports and descriptions you read these days tend to describe them as being or having been coloured like the faded example in the photo above.

Of all the thylacine reports I've read, I've only ever found one that mentioned the animal being grey.

I seem to recall some sightings from New Guinea that describe grey thylacines.
 
Hi MungomanII,
The lower incisors - at least in profile - are similarly large in many diprotodontids (ie. wombats, kangaroos, possums, Thyalcoleo), but those of Ekaltadeta ima are particularly impressive, and were more 'pointy' as opposed to the chisel-tip seen on modern vegetarian diprontodontids. However, it's not those incisors that speak of carnivory, even though they are certainly what first catches the attention. It's the premolars which, like the incisors, are somewhat similar to those of Thylacoleo but not as impressive.
Anyway, I'm no expert on these matters but I have read all of the relevant journal papers and there does appear to be strong consensus that Ekaltadeta was carnivorous, with Propleopus species being more omnivorous but still with carnivorous tendencies.
Re: human-killing black furred short faced kangaroo in the mythology, are you referring to what I wrote above or is this something else I haven't heard about? If so, please share where you heard or read this! I am very much interested in collecting stories like that as long as I can reference their source properly. (The story I mentioned didn't say they were black, which makes me think you're talking of a different story I'm unfamiliar with.) That story in the addendum to my article probably would have referred to Procoptodon goliah as written above, which is another creature entirely and would appear to have been a vegetarian, so I doubt they would have killed humans for food, probably as a territorial thing; also it was bidepal. Curiously, there was a paper published recently that came to the conclusion, based on known anatomy, that P. goliah (which had feet comprised of a single huge toe) would have actualy walked like a human, which coupled with the short, vaguely human-like face would have reinforced the seeing of these creatures as kangaroo-men. But then again, in Australian indigenous dreaming mythology, all animals were once 'people'. Just that in this case they did kinda look and move like very weird people! I'm still finding that gait hard to picture - it seems really ungainly for a creature built that way to walk like that.

And hi Lord Mungrove,
I don't have a publisher at this stage because it's all up in the air, but thanks for the tip. If it comes to anything I will think of CFZ first. However, recently I met an older fellow who used to be involved with Australian Rare Fauna Research in their heyday, and he had been thinking of doing a book more or less covering the same ground. He has a lot of information collected over the years that has never been published, he is passionate and knowledgeable about our flora and fauna and very level-headed, and I really like and respect him, so I would give him precedence for doing a book like this (ie. primarily about the marsupial lion - I'm not sure if he would want to divert into the other areas such as Qld tiger, mainland thylacines, giant quolls, carnivorous quadrupedal kangaroos etc.) Maybe we will end up collaborating somehow, who knows, but I will encourage him to get his book done either way.

Let me know if this guy's book comes out. i'd love to read it.
 
I've no idea whether we'd be talking about the exact same areas, but the signing dog, whose presence would probably have been problematic for a remnant population of thylacines in themselves. Once lived in the remote mountainous areas of the island, and are themselves now facing extinction in the wild. A major problem being hybridisation.

To me this means there are probably plenty of muts running loose, even in the more inaccessible areas. And given that I think competition from the dingo was the major factor in thylacine extinction in the mainland, I don't think it bodes well.

Of course it could be argued that the habitat in PNG/Irian Jaya differs significantly to that from which the tiger was pushed out of on mainland Australia (if that is what happened). But, if they would fare better than canids in a more enclosed environment, then you'd wonder why you get neither any oral tradition nor hard evidence of their survival in the tropical forests of the north west.

Of course though, with thylacines, who the hell knows.
 
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I've no idea whether we'd be talking about the exact same areas, but the signing dog, whose presence would probably have been problematic for a remnant population of thylacines in themselves. Once lived in the remote mountainous areas of the island, and are themselves now facing extinction in the wild. A major problem being hybridisation.

To me this means there are probably plenty of muts running loose, even in the more inaccessible areas. And given that I think competition from the dingo was the major factor in thylacine extinction in the mainland, I don't think it bodes well.

Of course it could be argued that the habitat in PNG/Irian Jaya differs significantly to that from which the tiger was pushed out of on mainland Australia (if that is what happened). But, if they would fare better than canids in a more enclosed environment, then you'd wonder why you get neither any oral tradition nor hard evidence of their survival in the tropical forests of the north west.

Of course though, with thylacines, who the hell knows.

At the risk of being an annoying nitpicking pedant -- was "north east" meant here, rather: Queensland / Northern Territory (Australia's classic "jungly part")?

Well, there was the chap whom I wrote of a few years ago (post #25 of the thread "On the Track of the Tasmanian Wolf", page 12 of the "Crypotozoology - General" sub-forum). He contributed for a while, half-a-dozen-plus years back, to the "other cryptids" section of the BigfootForums board. He was an alternative-lifestyle back-to-nature type, who lived in a remote part of tropical-forest northern Queensland. Was a very strong proponent of the survival up to the present day in the fastnesses of that area, of the thylacine (had never seen one himself, but had heard many accounts from people he trusted, and knew that the species was still alive and well there); and he reckoned that also true of the thylacoleo, at least up to a few decades ago, and likely still today. He seemed a benign soul, unless one were totally and bluntly dismissive of his claims: but general picture which strongly came across from his stuff, was that he was one or more of the following -- bonkers; a prankster / troll; most of the time, drunk / stoned out of his brains.
 
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