Railway Ghosts

[blessmycottonsocks]

If you died, would you come back as a gosht to haunt us? Or maybe a balti-geist?

My wife hated it when I put ginger in the curry the other night.
He was her favourite cat...

 

[IbisNibs]

Did he make a furry purr-y curry?

 

[IbisNibs]

What has this got to do with GHOSTS?!!?

 

[Tempest63]

The Higgypop Site currently has an article on Haunted Railway Stations with my regular London Terminus, London Liverpool Street, coming in at No.2, behind Crewe Railway Station at No.1.
I have passed through Liverpool Street at all hours, including some lengthy stays after piss poor timing meant I missed the last train home but, alas, I never met the ghost in the overalls.

https://www.higgypop.com/news/haunted-railway-stations/

 

[Tempest63]

Did he make a furry purr-y curry?

 

[Cochise]

The Higgypop Site currently has an article on Haunted Railway Stations with my regular London Terminus, London Liverpool Street, coming in at No.2, behind Crewe Railway Station at No.1.
I have passed through Liverpool Street at all hours, including some lengthy stays after piss poor timing meant I missed the last train home but, alas, I never met the ghost in the overalls.

https://www.higgypop.com/news/haunted-railway-stations/

During my (extremely brief) City career I quite often slept on the old Liverpool Street for an hour or two if I missed the mail train home. The trouble would be, like everyone else, that I'd be too drunk to tell a ghost from a fellow victim of some colleague's birthday party.

 

[DrPaulLee]

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the phantom train that was sometimes seen and heard in the vicinity of the 1863 Hunstanton train crash. It was mentioned in a 1986 booklet but there have been no other mentions anywhere.

 

[Paul_Exeter]

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the phantom train that was sometimes seen and heard in the vicinity of the 1863 Hunstanton train crash. It was mentioned in a 1986 booklet but there have been no other mentions anywhere.

The excellent UK Paranormal database doesn't disappoint:

https://www.paranormaldatabase.com/reports/rail.php?pageNum_paradata=3&totalRows_paradata=18

"Location: Hunstanton (Norfolk) - Disused rail track between Hunstanton and King's Lynn
Type: Haunting Manifestation
Date / Time: 1970s
Further Comments: This train crashed in August 1863, killing six people. Even though the line was removed from service during the 1960s, people still reported a phantom locomotive travelling along for several years after"

 

[DrPaulLee]

The problem with the paranormal database is that it doesn't give sources. It sounds like this (and others) came from the 1986 booklet I have so it's probably not an independent source at all.

 

[Tempest63]

Our town rail station, Witham, experienced a major rail crash on Friday, 1 September 1905 when all 14 of the coaches on the 09.27 London Liverpool Street to Cromer express came off the rails killing 10 passengers and a Porter.

Another 71 passengers were seriously injured after several of the carriages rolled onto the platforms.

This is the worst single loss of life in a railway accident in Essex to this day. The story has been told on billboards on the main London bound platform.

I have staggered off the last train in the early hours and been on the first train out on many an occasion and have never seen anything spooky at the station.

https://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GC47Y3Z_the-great-rail-disaster-at-witham

 

[Cochise]

No doubt it has been mentioned before up-thread but the crash sites where ghosts have been regularly reported are Charfield, Castlecary, and Lewisham.

Many other crashes occurred away from stations where there would be no-one around to witness any other ghosts.

The Witham accident was very unusual, in that the people responsible attempted a coordinated cover-up (what we would now call a conspiracy) and fooled the first enquiry. A whistleblower forced a second enquiry and the blame was correctly identified - but surprisingly no police action followed. Should have been manslaughter.

I hadn't seen the pictures before, Tempest, thanks.

 

[Tempest63]

A whistleblower forced a second enquiry and the blame was correctly identified - but surprisingly no police action followed. Should have been manslaughter.

Off Topic: I think back in those days an accident was an accident was an accident. With the introduction of the Health and Safety at Work Act in 1974 the duties people and organisations owe to each other Was set out making prosecutions more likelier.
I think I recall from safety school that Aberfan was one of the precursors to the HSWA; and again there were no prosecutions as a result of that disaster either.

 

[Cochise]

Off Topic: I think back in those days an accident was an accident was an accident. With the introduction of the Health and Safety at Work Act in 1974 the duties people and organisations owe to each other Was set out making prosecutions more likelier.
I think I recall from safety school that Aberfan was one of the precursors to the HSWA; and again there were no prosecutions as a result of that disaster either.

Briefly continuing the digression. Railway staff had been charged with manslaughter back from early days, but usually only drivers or signalmen. Generally the attitude was taken that an accident was an accident unless there was 'gross negligence'. Sentences were typically very light even on the rare occasions that a guilty verdict was delivered.

Here is an early example - I don't claim it is the earliest:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hexthorpe_rail_accident

The Witham case is the only one I know in the UK up until the 1950's where there was a deliberate attempt at cover-up involving multiple people, including some not directly involved in the errors.

 

[Cochise]

Because I have nothing better to do may I give you an Irish railway ghost?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1853_Straffan_rail_accident#Folklore:_The_Ghost_Story

This actually was a shocking accident, by far the worst in the UK up until then. (The whole of Ireland being a part of the 'Home Nations' at the time)

 

[Cochise]

Another good ghost:

https://www.essexghosthunters.co.uk/haunted-places/cambridgeshire/conington-level-crossing

This one has been regularly - if inconsistently - recorded in the standard railway ghost books by Herbert and Brooks.

Conington has another connection as possibly the only place in the UK where a signalman has deliberately and with malice aforethought derailed a train:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connington_South_rail_crash

 

[Cochise]

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the phantom train that was sometimes seen and heard in the vicinity of the 1863 Hunstanton train crash. It was mentioned in a 1986 booklet but there have been no other mentions anywhere.

There is no official record of such an accident. Check here - it is very comprehensive.

https://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/eventlisting.php

There were allegedly 6 deaths - it would have been investigated and have an official report. The Victorians were quite organised about such things.

So I conclude the whole thing is fiction.

 

[DrPaulLee]

I assume you're joking!
It was covered in the national press and there was an inquiry into the deaths. It's very well known about in these parts.

 

[Cochise]

I assume you're joking!
It was covered in the national press and there was an inquiry into the deaths. It's very well known about in these parts.

Well, mea culpa. The accident was not at Hunstanton, it was at Wootton, on the outskirts of King's Lynn, which is why I couldn't initially find it. Had to search through all the 1863 accidents.

Caused by a cow, which seems rather remarkable in itself.

https://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/docsummary.php?docID=7498

Still think it's a load of twaddle. Where was this ghost locomotive actually seen? And under what reasoning would the locomotive become a ghost? It wasn't damaged in the accident. And in fact the train was hauled by two locomotives.

I'm not averse to ghost locomotives - would love to see this one:

https://unusualthingsblog.wordpress.com/2017/08/02/the-ghost-deltic/

Used to live not far north of there.

 

[DrPaulLee]

There was some damage to the engines albeit minor. Some of the carriages were reduced to little more than tinder.
And the train wasn't being pulled by two engines.
On that day, a lot of people had travelled to Hunstanton. When it came for them to return, the train organisers decided rather than one long train pulled by two engines, they would have two trains each pulled by one engine. They would leave 15 minutes apart.
The first train would stop at 5 station, the express (later) one only two.
About two miles from Lynn, the driver of the first train saw a bullock on the line and sounded his whistle. The bullock jumped out of the way but an employee of the train company who was riding in the engine said that would cause an accident. The driver was duty bound to report this when he got in to Lynn but could find no one in officialdom, it being nearby night. The other train was less than 10 minutes behind.
The driver saw the bullock in the gloom but it was too late and the train hit the animal which passed under the train. The first four carriages felt a bump as the carcass scraped the underside but by a quirk of design, the axles of the next carriage were lower than the preceeding ones and they hit the bullock, derailing them and the next four or five carriages before the train came to a halt.

The train company was found negligent at the coroners inquest for not warning the second train (it's likely that by the time the first arrived at Lynn, the second was moments away from the accident): they were also found nothing to have maintained the upkeep of the carriages - the first and second class carriages didn't suffer much damage and we're reusable but the 3rd class were of much poorer construction resulting in the deaths: and the train company was also found to have not been compliant in maintaining the fencing along the line to keep animals off. They had been warned and had started to put better fences up but it seems that they didn't do so with much enthusiasm of speed.

The inquest also found that the government had been lax in allowing trains to proceed with poorly maintained fencing. However, after another victim died and a separate inquest was ordered on her, all the findings of the first were agreed with, apart from this last one.

By the way, in these parts it's called the Hunstanton crash. It actually occurred about a mile north of the village of Gaywood, now a part of Kings Lynn.

 

[DrPaulLee]

I've checked and yes, it is quite close to South Wootton which was a lot smaller in those days - but all the papers of the day called it "The Hunstanton Train Crash." Anywhere, this is where it occurred, two miles from Lynn station about a mile south of North Wootton, one of those stations where the first train stopped but the second didn't. After the crash, the people who had survived the carnage walked the approx 1 mile to Gaywood where word filtered out - and also where the bodies were taken and the inquest held.

 

[Cochise]

There was some damage to the engines albeit minor. Some of the carriages were reduced to little more than tinder.
And the train wasn't being pulled by two engines.
On that day, a lot of people had travelled to Hunstanton. When it came for them to return, the train organisers decided rather than one long train pulled by two engines, they would have two trains each pulled by one engine. They would leave 15 minutes apart.
The first train would stop at 5 station, the express (later) one only two.
About two miles from Lynn, the driver of the first train saw a bullock on the line and sounded his whistle. The bullock jumped out of the way but an employee of the train company who was riding in the engine said that would cause an accident. The driver was duty bound to report this when he got in to Lynn but could find no one in officialdom, it being nearby night. The other train was less than 10 minutes behind.
The driver saw the bullock in the gloom but it was too late and the train hit the animal which passed under the train. The first four carriages felt a bump as the carcass scraped the underside but by a quirk of design, the axles of the next carriage were lower than the preceeding ones and they hit the bullock, derailing them and the next four or five carriages before the train came to a halt.

The train company was found negligent at the coroners inquest for not warning the second train (it's likely that by the time the first arrived at Lynn, the second was moments away from the accident): they were also found nothing to have maintained the upkeep of the carriages - the first and second class carriages didn't suffer much damage and we're reusable but the 3rd class were of much poorer construction resulting in the deaths: and the train company was also found to have not been compliant in maintaining the fencing along the line to keep animals off. They had been warned and had started to put better fences up but it seems that they didn't do so with much enthusiasm of speed.

The inquest also found that the government had been lax in allowing trains to proceed with poorly maintained fencing. However, after another victim died and a separate inquest was ordered on her, all the findings of the first were agreed with, apart from this last one.

By the way, in these parts it's called the Hunstanton crash. It actually occurred about a mile north of the village of Gaywood, now a part of Kings Lynn.

The official report calls it the Wootton crash.

Inquests into railway accidents are notorious for producing nonsense, which is partly why the Railway Inspectorate was created. Your average crusty coroner was in no way equipped to deal with the technicalities involved.

The Government had nothing whatsoever to do with fencing, railways up until 1948 being private businesses.

You and your fellow locals are of course free to call it what you want. But it hardly helps getting at the truth if you place it 10 miles from where it actually happened.

 

[GNC]

Wasn't it Isambard Kingdom Brunel who, when asked what safety measures to take if a train driver saw another train heading on the same track towards yours, said you should speed up the train you're on and smash the approaching train out of the way? I understand we've moved on from such advice.

 

[Cochise]

Wasn't it Isambard Kingdom Brunel who, when asked what safety measures to take if a train driver saw another train heading on the same track towards yours, said you should speed up the train you're on and smash the approaching train out of the way? I understand we've moved on from such advice.

He was being sarcastic, but you are correct.

 

[GNC]

He was being sarcastic, but you are correct.

Had sarcasm been invented back then?

 

[SimonBurchell]

Had sarcasm been invented back then?

No, they were far more sardonic... in Brunel's case, the word irony is particularly appropriate.

 

[GNC]

No, they were far more sardonic... in Brunel's case, the word irony is particularly appropriate.

Ha, ha, he certainly was an arch-ironist!

 

[escargot]

I've checked and yes, it is quite close to South Wootton which was a lot smaller in those days - but all the papers of the day called it "The Hunstanton Train Crash.

A bit like the disastrous Selby rail crash, which actually happened at a spot called Great Heck.

 

[SimonBurchell]

Ha, ha, he certainly was an arch-ironist!

Or the iron-archist?

 

[Mythopoeika]

Ha, ha, he certainly was an arch-ironist!

Oh, very good!

 

[blessmycottonsocks]

Had sarcasm been invented back then?

The term is derived from the Greek σαρκασμός (sarkasmós) meaning tearing of flesh, so I suspect it goes back a very long way (and some of those great Greek raconteurs must have had a very cutting sense of humour).