Real Demons? (Actual Encounters With Demonic Entities)

[Doctor_Occupant]

Interesting topic.

Demon used to mean something quite different to what it does today.
Spelled Daimon its defined as an attendant spirit or genius, which a greek thing. The Greeks used to believe that thoughts or ideas were gifts from the gods - a god or spirit made them think, feel or act a certain way. Marcus Aurelius also mentions that certain actions or thoughts 'release the daemon' - in the sense of inspiring greatness.

In this sense, daimons are still with us and I was wondering whether the idea of being possessed comes from the inspiration that the Greeks and Romans talk about.

Someone mentions negative energy and I was wondering whether anyone would put the Grey Man of the Cairngorms, or the odd feeling you sometimes get at Wayland's Smithey in with this.

 

[OldTimeRadio]

....a tiny slug/flatworm creature (i'm not fond of slugs, or flatworms for that matter).

This is a bit of a Jungian syncronicity for me. Just earlier this afternoon I was trying (unsuccessfully!) to recall a short story by Lord Dunsany. The story features a wannabe Hitler who has intentions of launching a Nazi-like political movement. He has even designed a swastika-like symbol for his party flags and emblems.

But the new Fuhrer dies before his plans reach fruition. Even so, he insists that since his Will is indomitable he will RETURN. He informs the narrator that the the sign of his rebirth will be the party emblem once again being displayed.

Years afterwards the narrator is out in his back garden when he spots a lowly slug upon a rock. It is slowly tracing out, again and again, the swastika-like symbol in its slime trails.

Brrrr. Shiver.

 

[PlagueRider]

I firmly believe in demons - I can't recall any dreams or nightmares that I've had where I've been specifically terrorised by one, but I feel there are many dimensions running parallel to our own, probably with many of them infested with demons that can sometimes cross over into our perception of 'reality'.

I'm sure they're out there somewhere with a legion of flesheating zombies waiting to consume us all.

 

[OldTimeRadio]

I firmly believe in demons....

You and me both.

I'm sure they're out there somewhere with a legion of flesheating zombies waiting to consume us all.

Well not exactly all, or at least never all at once. They keep us in pens like cattle, ready for immediate shipment to the Demon Diner (tm) chain. <only half a g>

 

[PlagueRider]

I firmly believe in demons....

You and me both.

I've never quite worked out what they would look like, as I presume they'd take on whatever form was necessary, depending on what our fears might be, but I've always figured they'd be some kind of black shape in the darkness, that you can just about make out in your peripheral vision but not the direct line of sight, but you'd know they were there because you'd be overwhelmed with the oppressing sense of fear.

Maybe that's just because I'm a bit wary of shadow people and unseen things that lurk in the deep dark. But then of course that could just be one strain or race of them, depending on how far you want to delve into demonology... as from OTR's earlier post the one that visited him was very much a humanoid shape.

Hrm I'm rambling now, so best stop before I go too far and can't reel myself back in!!

 

[Dingo667]

I'm quite interested in demons myself. What I am wondering about is why do they have to be scary?
I mean a lot of peeps here believe that they will look like your worst nightmare.
Lets say that is the case, what would be the reasoning behind this?
Some people might die of shock if they came face to face with their nightmare. Is that what demons want? If so what do they get out of it?
I don't buy the "reaping souls for Satan" business, so I'd like to know what other "proper" reason they could have for being "scary".

Don't some demons live amongst us andsort of reveal their true faces only in certain situations?
Would that be in order to "rule" us?
Couldn't they do that much faster by just "going for it", considering they are so big and evil and can do us harm?

I mean if was a demon and would want to rule stupid human kind [no thanks], I'd just go out there, cause carnage until the rest is so petrified they'd do anything I want them to.

Any ideas on that?

:goof:

 

[OldTimeRadio]

I've never quite worked out what they would look like, as I presume they'd take on whatever form was necessary, depending on what our fears might be, but I've always figured they'd be some kind of black shape in the darkness, that you can just about make out in your peripheral vision but not the direct line of sight, but you'd know they were there because you'd be overwhelmed with the oppressing sense of fear.

Might it be that demons are discorporeal, bodiless, "invisible" entities or spirits and that our brains are hard-wired to perceive their presence and to "flesh 'em out" according to our own personal cultural and religious orientations?

In addition, demons might be able to impress a physical image upon us when they want to.

 

[tilly50]

A long time ago, when I was at grammar school, one of the girls brought a ouija board in (we were about13-14 at the time). The dominant clique of girls took it over and used it at break.
The rest of us were only allowed to watch as these girls would take turns trying to scare each other or use the board to taunt someone about their boyfriends or lack of. It was pretty obvious who was pushing the glass as typical spelling errors gave her away (as well as her mean streak!).
The last time they used the board was different though. Same girls, same board but this time whatever was moving the glass knew latin, used grammar and generally knew stuff that it was hard to believe that this group of girls had any knowledge about.
Scary stuff began to be produced, and from the panicky look on the ring leaders face I guess that she felt a distinct loss of control. The glass spelt out that someone from the other side had taken a shine to the ring leader and that they wanted her to join them. The name of a demon was spelt out and that they were following this girl. The class room was very overcast and cold and the atmosphere was chilling. The ring leader was as scared as hell and threw the glass across the room.
The next day she was weepy and claimed that she had been followed home by a shadow that had tried to entre her room that night. Over the next few weeks she underwent a massive personality change, becoming withdrawn and lacking in confidence. Even her previous victims began to worry about the obvious change in her.
The girl was a Roman Catholic and eventually she summoned up the courage to tell her local priest about it. He in turn went to the headmistress of our school and we were all given a stern lecture about dabbling with the occult.
I don't know what happened that day but on reflection the only girl that did not freak out, but seemed to smile as she watched, was one of the girls most picked on by the clique, a total outsider, who was habitually bullied by the ringleader. She the went on to study classics at Oxford.

 

[James_H]

Might it be that demons are discorporeal, bodiless, "invisible" entities or spirits and that our brains are hard-wired to perceive their presence and to "flesh 'em out" according to our own personal cultural and religious orientations?

In addition, demons might be able to impress a physical image upon us when they want to.

This is pretty much a fascinating line of discussion. The idea that the world is full of discorporeal spirits has been current since the dawn of time, and arguably religions like christianity and islam are in fact animist in that they concede djinn, demons, and angels.

Milton and Coleridge both had something to say about wandering spirits roaming the earth, having nothing to do with the souls of the dead.

Anyhow, I've just read Poltergeist! by Colin Wilson. Stripped down, his basically plausible theory is that

• 
  a)A poltergeist 'focus' (say a young girl) gives off 'energies' from frustration, anger, whatever
  
  b)Wandering, mischievous and 'low-level' spirits Pick it up and start chucking stuff around with it!

He also cites cases in Brazil, Africa, and England, in which witches have evokes a curse against people, involving 'the spirits' and the targets have gone on to be terrorized by poltergeists.

I'm inclined to believe that we do in fact live in an animist, spiritual world, and that 'demons' and 'fairies' are these kind of 'entities' (if they are indeed strictly singular entities).

 

[many_angled_one]

Maybe that's just because I'm a bit wary of shadow people and unseen things that lurk in the deep dark. But then of course that could just be one strain or race of them, depending on how far you want to delve into demonology...

There are a fair few people I know, myself included that have seen these Shadow People along with an overwhelming feeling of hatred, almost as if they resent you being alive. I believe there are threads on those somewhere as well...

I have always thought that at least some sort of demons feed off our fear and strong negative emotions, a sort of emotionally psychic foodstuff. This would also explain the presense of poltergeists around emotionally volatile teenagers going through puberty. When you think about it, the brain is vulnerable to electromagnetic stimulation that can induce effect, moods etc and for all we know it also radiates some sort of psychic emanation (which might explain telepathy, readings etc) that can be picked up or imprinted on things.

Well, I would imagine that demons/entities from other dimensions or plans would indeed be terrifying purely because they are something so different and alien to us. That is bound to cause a automatic fear response.

 

[OldTimeRadio]

I suspect that poltergeists come in more than one flavor:

1. An unhappy young person moves items, affects electricity, starts fires and so on through some unknown method yet to be explained, but probably related to quantum physics. No demon need (neccessarily) apply.

2. He or she makes a subconscious (or even conscious) contract with a demon, who does the dirty work.

3. The demon does it all on its own.

 

[OldTimeRadio]

One of the things that continues to bother me:

If you claim that we share our planet with an invisible or at least rarely-seen race of entities, that's just good, old-fashioned Paranormalism. You're even allowed to conclude that those creatures are malignantly-inclined towards Mankind. Just so long as you never, ever, call them "demons."

But when Jews, Christians and/or Muslims speak of the existence of demons, that's just superstitious nonsense.

Sorry, I got up on the wrong side of he grave this evening.

 

[Pietro_Mercurios]

I firmly believe in demons....

You and me both.

I'm sure they're out there somewhere with a legion of flesheating zombies waiting to consume us all.

Well not exactly all, or at least never all at once. They keep us in pens like cattle, ready for immediate shipment to the Demon Diner (tm) chain. <only half a g>

Me not. Although, there are plenty of spiritual cannibals about. A lot of them have TV spots, Armani suits and a voracious appetite for the poor's last dime.

Hallelujah, for Jee-ee-Z-us is their meal ticket.

 

[OldTimeRadio]

Doubtless, Pietro.

But I used to listen to a local radio preacher here who worked five or six days a week as a telephone company lineman.

 

[Pietro_Mercurios]

Doubtless, Pietro.

But I used to listen to a local radio preacher here who worked five or six days a week as a telephone company lineman.

Some people just have a calling.

 

[many_angled_one]

One of the things that continues to bother me:

If you claim that we share our planet with an invisible or at least rarely-seen race of entities, that's just good, old-fashioned Paranormalism. You're even allowed to conclude that those creatures are malignantly-inclined towards Mankind. Just so long as you never, ever, call them "demons."

But when Jews, Christians and/or Muslims speak of the existence of demons, that's just superstitious nonsense.

Sorry, I got up on the wrong side of he grave this evening.

IMO I think it is more the rejection of the highly specialised world-view these religions have of Demons rather than their existence per se. And demons are as good a name as anything else. It's a generic term really nowadays, dosnt have to specifically refer to biblical fallen angels.

I think with the mocking of Christians, Jews, Muslims etc who beleive in demons it is more how they use it. Some use demons as causing everything evil in the world which in my opinion is complete codswallop, bad stuff happens withough cause sometimes and a lot fo the time humans are just in the way. Earthquakes would happen even if there were nobody there to be hurt...I think (room for error there I admit, even if far-fetched). Demons did this, demons did that...did they bollocks, they cannot be an excuse for everthing. Though for some things...possible.

For others...the fallen angels, Satan and such is just a literary device of showing that God is pure, merceful etc and it's not him doing all these nasty things...because...well, he's God isnt he? He's goodlyness incarnate! (Except he allows it to happen, but then thats all wrapped up with free will and such I guess)

 

[skinny46]

Interesting topic.

Demon used to mean something quite different to what it does today.
Spelled Daimon its defined as an attendant spirit or genius, which a greek thing. The Greeks used to believe that thoughts or ideas were gifts from the gods - a god or spirit made them think, feel or act a certain way. Marcus Aurelius also mentions that certain actions or thoughts 'release the daemon' - in the sense of inspiring greatness.

In this sense, daimons are still with us and I was wondering whether the idea of being possessed comes from the inspiration that the Greeks and Romans talk about.

Someone mentions negative energy and I was wondering whether anyone would put the Grey Man of the Cairngorms, or the odd feeling you sometimes get at Wayland's Smithey in with this.

Interesting take on the topic, Doc.

Christians talk of inviting Jesus into their lives, of being filled with the holy spirit of God in order to live full and virtuous lives in the name of love and goodness. Makes as much sense to those who believe that's possible to theorise that there are other malignant entities that represent the darker side of our human nature - created by individuals due to our cognizant ability to reflect on what we are and what is occuring within a set of situational variables. The perception or the experience of seeing / feeling / meeting / hearing or being in the presence of a 'demon' could be one explanation of a fear response every one of us must encounter at some stage in a life. People talk of their own inner demons getting the better of them, in relation to loss of control through drugs or alcohol, aggression and violence, or fear and pessimism. All names for 'demons' that are unpleasant POV experiences with no externalised form, though they may create an externalised form through the consequence of action. These experiences are real, and the word demon is one among many for an experience or group of experiences that are recognised, named and rationalised in every culture and society that has ever lived.

This rather psych-clinical explanation occured to me after pondering a story my father told me of when he was debating within himself whether or not to accept a 'call' by God to join the ministry. He was quite a shining light in the bank at the age of 26 or so when he was 'called', as he puts it, to minister for Christ. Never had any religion in his upbringing. Neither was his family in any way superstitious - the most pragmatic and straight up people I've ever met, but yet he decided to follow this call and retired one month ago after 37 very active years in the ministry. He told me that he was walking through a park one night when a feeling of deep fear descended upon him. He said the fear was emanating from a place in a group of trees, not like any experience of fear within himself that he had felt before - he stressed that it was different from the ordinary. There was nobody around, but he felt with certainty that the devil was nearby. He ran fast to get away from whatever it was. This externalised or projected fear could have been the result of extremely high stress - a result of his momentous decision, but he came to no harm and the experience has never repeated itself. I'm not one to say that there's no possibility that there wasn't a demon spooking my Da, but it just seems quite a likely thing to occur to a person making a complete fundamental u-turn in the direction of their life. Scary stuff. I sometimes regret that he didn't stay with the bank - we might've had a mansion in the hills instead of a caravan in the suburbs.

 

[Anonymous]

I have read this thread with interest and felt compelled to reply.
I have to say I can easily accept the idea of disembodied spirits that inhabit realms/dimensions/universes that are not entirely contiguous with our own but under certain circumstances can cross over. Call them what you will, there is much that would support this view.

However, what I have a real problem with is the term "evil".
I very much feel that evil is a construct, a relativism and has no real meaning. Take the example of the cow. Were the bovine races to suddenly become sentient, would they not view humanity as the ultimate in "evil"? We keep them in slavery, breed them, hack them for food and clothing and even tear their unborn from their wombs for the likes of delicacies and cosmetics. So, what seems like evil to us, may actually be our perception of a few higher rungs on the celestial ladder of existence, or worse, supreme ignorance of how things "really" are.

As such, the idea of demons and hell are all part of a construct that is essentially nonsensical. In the Judaeo Christian tradition, the old testament angels sound every bit as bad as the demons for example. And in OT Judaism anyway, there isn't really a hell as such, and it is not really the fire and brimstone type place of Christian portrayal anyway.

I think if there were such places, and such beings, then there would be more of a commonality of tradition between various cultural places around the world. The commonality is off other beings, in other worlds, but little carries over beyond that, leading me to believe that most of the details beyond is cultural to the experiencers and again, highly subjective of time, place and culture.

Thoughts?

 

[Stanforda]

Demons are so different to human creatures, one of the many, many reasons that they play rolls in human life, and make extremely subtle influence(observe-watch)is that they are interested in the human mind.

There is absolutely no limit to the cruelty they can administer because it is impossible for them to comprehend human emotion, and again one of the key reasons for them rebelling from God and changing what they were into evil(which to me is a word apllied to a repetition of an evil act or an inability or strong desire to disobey rules and guidance in order to fulfill...)was a wrong 'desire' to understand human emotion; thus leading to the creation of Nephilim(watchers, depending on your preference)who had a closer relationship to humans, and who started a major cultural influence over people, an influence which was preserved through the deluge via the Pillars, later to be discovered by Solomon's masons, leading to Freemasonry and O.T.O, who as many believe, are behind most government descisions and choice changes in society.

Please excuse my unconventional grammar

 

[many_angled_one]

Well Stanforda, If we are going by Old Testament, New Testament and contemporary Apocrypha:
The Angels of God's host and Satan and his fallen angels contest over the Earth, they are in fact the powers and principalities influencing and controlling the various nations. As far as I can gather the vast majority of both are free upon the Earth (i.e. not bound up in hell, the Abyss etc) It is the origional conspiracy theory if you will.

The Grigori Angels (The 200 Angels of the order of the Watchers) tasked with watching over humanity got too involved with their charges and caused human woman to give birth to Nephilim which then were wiped out in the flood. Being half angel half human they were both physical and spiritual and belonged to neither heaven nor hell and thus are free to wander the world as bodyless spirits to plague humanity. The writings specifically make a difference between these incorporal entities calling them "Demons" (which are subject to Satan) and the fallen angels that came down with Satan.
Whilst the watchers are bound in the Abyss along with numerous Demons (who as far as I can tell stepped out of some sort of delineated line), the fallen angels seem to be more free to act.

The gnostics were right in a way to say that Satan is the ruler of the Earth, the writings would support that in a way.

 

[Stanforda]

Thanks for that reply many_angled_one.

Tell me what you reckon to the idea of the Abyss being a state rather than a real spiritual place?
I mean that the Abyss would be a state where an entity has all power taken away, without power; an entity would be as good as dead, the only real way for a spirit to cease existence would be this.

It's interesting the way in which entities react so destructively when the abyss is mentioned to them.

 

[decipheringscars]

But my main point is - no plastic horns, tail stuffed with old newspapers, dyed red longjohns, celluloid fangs, pruning fork and all the other costume shop accoutrements.

No, but your 'lord of the flies' there is pretty classic fare.

OK, I'm late to this thread - but "Lord of the flies" is literally the meaning of "Ba'al Zebub" (in Hebrew). IIRC it has also the connotation of dung (which flies swarm around). At any rate, it was a derogatory wordplay on "Ba'al Zebul," a non-Israelite deity whose name literally means, "Exalted Lord."

 

[decipheringscars]

many_angled_one has the mythology right. Some of it can be found in the Bible, some in other texts, such as Enoch. The "abyss" is often simply pictured as in the "wilderness" (sometimes rendered "desert"). In Enoch, the ring-leader is named Azazel, and it is to Azazel in the wilderness that the "scapegoat" of the Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur) is to be sent in Leviticus. As the mythology develops, the wilderness becomes a symbol of temptation, spiritual wrestling, etc., and to have John the Baptist intentionally living there really sets him apart as a holy man - he can survive not only the harsh living conditions, but the presence of all those evil spirits. Similarly, Jesus goes into the wilderness for his 40-day fast and temptation, which includes a direct encounter with Satan.

Of course, "Satan," or ha-satan literally means, "the adversary." If you look earlier in the mythology, for example, in the book of Job, Satan isn't an evil being at all, just the prosecuting attorney in God's court. It all goes back to when even ancient Hebrews believed in many gods. There was a heavenly court of lesser gods who all had their roles - some were specifically assigned to watch over specific nations, and these would be the national deities. As Hebrew religion became monotheistic, the national god was identified with the Most High God, and all the other gods were demoted to angels (and demons).

In the New Testament, the demons are exactly as many_angled_one says - the spirits that remained after the bodies of the Nephilim (offspring of fallen angels and human mothers) were killed. They were left wandering the earth and getting into mischief. They were the source of illness, for example. They could also influence humans to sin. Often the Gospels use the terms "forgiveness" and "healing" almost interchangeably, which may reflect that, as well as simply pointing to a more holistic view of the human person than modern Christianity (at least in the US) tends to hold.


(BTW, FWIW, I don't believe in demons, but I think they're a useful mythological way to speak of what Walter Wink and others call "the powers" - in other words, they're not reducible to psychology, because evil tends to take on a life of its own and become systemic, something that seems beyond any individual's control, but which keeps individual humans in bondage. You'll encounter this view in many modern and current theologians who are willing to speak of "the demonic," but not so much of demons as such.)

 

[Stanforda]

Thanks.
Sorry about my post, I don't like to sound to confident.
The only reasons I myself believe in demons, is because of the experiences I've had.

When this information comes from entities that take a pride in describing themselves as opposers of god, and naming themselves as; amongst other things, demons, it makes you really believe in there exsitence.

When these beings take up a 'relationship' with you almost, they will(may)tell you what is the truth in their honest opinion.

 

[OldTimeRadio]

Some use demons as causing everything evil in the world which in my opinion is complete codswallop, bad stuff happens withough cause sometimes and a lot fo the time humans are just in the way. Earthquakes would happen even if there were nobody there to be hurt...I think (room for error there I admit, even if far-fetched). Demons did this, demons did that...did they bollocks, they cannot be an excuse for everthing. Though for some things...possible.

Sorry for the delay in replying to this.

I think that "blaming" demons for all things which discomfort mankind is a much more consistent position than assuming that they are merely responsible for some of them.

Several years ago I met a young but cutting-edge medical pathologist who believes, privately, as a Christian, that disease-causing virii and bacteria are "demonic." That view doesn't in the least interfere with his medical and scientific researches and discoveries.

To paraphrase a previous statement of mine, "they say that the Devil doesn't like holy water but the evidence is that he doesn't much care for modern anti-virals and anti-biotics either."

 

[Reynardine]

Hello.

Should anyone want to try their hand at opening portals into the nether world, may I recommend this website?

http://www.esotericarchives.com/esoteric.htm

If you are going to do it, do it in style: Latin, lamens and lamplight.

Are demons real? If you buy into the notion of discarnate existence, then yeah, it is on the cards. A demon is an unpleasant spirit.

If you don't buy into the discarnate existence thing, then it is stuff and nonsense.

Me, I go along with Guy Lyon Playfair (The Flying Cow, et al.) and would say that the balance of evidence suggests polts are intelligent. The evidence for polts, I think, is pretty good, so in my view there is pretty good evidence for nasty discarnate thingies, and so a basis for belief in demons.

Unless you go for the RSPK theory, in which case ignore all the above. Or snort above your pipe. Yours the choice.

Guess it also comes down to how far down the etymological tree you wish to climb. The Socratic Daemon is synonymous with genius, inspiration; the definition then expands to cover discarnate entities in general, and then contracts to cover mean discarnate entities you wouldn't want in your bathroom.

Meester Crowley, in his introduction to The Lemegeton, has an intriguing slant on the Socratic definition; demons are aspects of the self denied or surpressed. Calling them forth therefore constitutes a form of integrative therapy - integrative therapy with circles with AGLA written in them. And hoods. Or something like that - it has been a while since I read it.

You dig? Splendid! I'm off for a pot of Lipton's and a drag of crystal meth.

 

[OldTimeRadio]

Me, I go along with Guy Lyon Playfair (The Flying Cow, et al.) and would say that the balance of evidence suggests polts are intelligent. The evidence for polts, I think, is pretty good, so in my view there is pretty good evidence for nasty discarnate thingies, and so a basis for belief in demons.

I'm a Christian but I don't believe that poltergeists are necessarily demonic. Yes, they seem to show intelligence but then do some ghost lights and even ball lightning displays.

 

[Reynardine]

Actually, I agree; Polts are polts and that is that. It is interesting, however, perusing the ghostly side of the net, how they are pressed into the 'demonic haunting' pigeon hole when they are deemed 'non-human'. If they are deemed a manifestation of the restless dead, the demonic label is dropped.

Same phenomenon, different perspectives.

There does seem to be a new cosmology arising on the websites of TAPS et al. 'Non humans' appear to have two attributes:

* They are ill-humoured and delight in causing upset
* They give the TAPS boys a visible erection

I get the impression this flows from the work of Ed and Lorraine Warren. The packet-grabbing bravado is TAPS' own, though.

 

[OldTimeRadio]

If they are deemed a manifestation of the restless dead, the demonic label is dropped.

But just as many and perhaps even more genuine poltergeistic phenomena may be due to the restless living.

 

[Nazreel]

Take the example of the cow. Were the bovine races to suddenly become sentient, would they not view humanity as the ultimate in "evil"? We keep them in slavery, breed them, hack them for food and clothing and even tear their unborn from their wombs for the likes of delicacies and cosmetics.

I'm sorry but I do believe that this is evil and the sooner we stop doing it the better.