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Red Barn Murders

liveinabin

Gone But Not Forgotten
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Oct 19, 2001
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I've recently moved to Suffolk, and the other day I went to Bury St Edmunds. I did a bit of shopping and whilst there, as it was my first visit, I picked up a leaflet with information on the town. I got home and the hubbie looked at this leaflet. "Did you know there is a museum in Bury with the scalp of the man who did the Red Barn Murders, and a book bound in his skin"?
Dam something as cool as that and I missed it.
But what I want to know is this. What were the Red Barn Murders? And what is the book?

I'm back of to Bury as soon as I can to look at this!
 
Well prior to this thread "Red Barn Murders" appears to be a googlethwack. It links through to a geneology website and this post in particular. Hold on while I try Kartoo.

Nope Kartoo provides the same link. Damn.
 
My mind is well and truely boggled at the thought of a respected Victorian doctor tanning the skin of a hanged man then using it to bind a book (pity it wasn't the bible!)

Strange people, our ancestors (as no doubt our descendents will say of us)

Jane.
 
No idea if it's connected, but Tom Waits recorded a song entitled "Murder In The Red Barn" on the rather excellent Bone Machine album. Tom's lyrics seem more inspired by the creepy, alternative backwoods America that so many of his songs are set in, but could your Suffolk story be the ultimate origin?
 
I could have sworn I'd posted a long thread about the use of human skin to bind books and... er... other stuff, but I can't find it now.

You'd be amazed, mejane...
 
My mind is well and truely boggled at the thought of a respected Victorian doctor tanning the skin of a hanged man then using it to bind a book (pity it wasn't the bible!)

Not Victorian;
these events happened in 1828, when George IV was on the throne; a wild and alien time indeed, before policemen and the Reform act made Britain a little more civilised.
 
Memorial service to infamous killer?

September 15, 2004 05:55

By Dave Gooderham

THE family of one of East Anglia's most infamous murderers may soon be given the opportunity to hold a memorial service in his name - almost 200 years after the notorious Red Barn killer was hanged.

Linda Nessworthy, whose grandmother was related to Red Barn murderer William Corder, hopes to organise the ceremony and scatter the 24-year-old killer's ashes in Polstead.

Corder was hanged in public in Bury St Edmunds after he was convicted of killing his lover Maria Marten in 1828 - a crime notoriously dubbed the Murder in the Red Barn.

Following a three year-campaign by Miss Nessworthy, his remains were finally cremated in a private ceremony in London last month.

Now she is keen to organise a service in the village where the murder took place and scatter Corder's ashes there.

Having met with village rector, the Rev Michael Tillett, Miss Nessworthy said she was confident she had the backing of residents.

“Reverend Tillett was very sympathetic and he said villagers have been very supportive to the idea. They said it was time William came back into the village, which is fantastic,” she added.

“The rector said he could think of no reason why we couldn't have a proper internment of ashes in the family plot and a traditional memorial service.

“It is like the church have accepted William back into the fold and the family are overjoyed.”

Miss Nessworthy added: “It is very important for us to have the service - it is like the prodigal son returning after being away from home after all these years.

“No matter what he did, William has served his sentence and we will now want to bring him home and have him accepted by the whole village.”

Though sympathising with her situation, Mr Tillett said the church had to balance Miss Nessworthy's request with the opinions of the community.

“The matter is unique and delicate and we want to do all we can to respond and be responsive to the family,” said Mr Tillett, who is waiting for an official request from Miss Nessworthy before making a final decision about the service with the parochial church council.

“This story has gone on for Linda for the last few years and I know it has been quite difficult for her.

“We are very sympathetic about what she is asking for, but we also have to be very sensitive to local opinion - although local people are sensitive to her position.

“Our only concern is whatever is done should be dealt with properly and with appropriate decorum and to bring this whole very difficult story to a suitable and satisfactory conclusion.”

Miss Nessworthy said she was compelled into action after learning about the treatment of Corder following his public hanging in Bury St Edmunds.

She campaigned for three years to get the killer's remains released from the Royal College of Surgeons, where his skeleton was stored.

She said: “I became very indignant and angry about the way his death was handled and he was treated. It took three years to finally get the remains, but I was driven on by the injustice of it all.”

The Murder in the Red Barn has gripped generations for almost 200 years. The body of Maria Marten was found in a shallow grave in Polstead almost a year after she first went missing.

Although her lover protested his innocence, Corder was found guilty of murder and sentenced to a public death by hanging.

His skeleton was kept while the scalp and part of his skin was preserved. The surgeon, George Creed, later had an account of the trial bound in leather made from the murderer's skin - now on show in Moyse's Hall Museum in Bury St Edmunds.

But in her effort to reclaim the book and Corder's scalp, Miss Nessworthy is facing a fresh fight against museum operators, St Edmundsbury Borough Council.

“This will be another way of closing the chapter - it is abhorrent that William's body parts should be on display,” she said.

“When you go into the museum and see a scalp that belonged to a member of my family, it is horrific. I will continue to fight and I am determined to get them back.”

A spokeswoman for the council said: “We are investigating Miss Nessworthy's claims with a view to reporting to councillors, but no date has yet been set.

“The council will look at issues such as ownership of the items and whether any other representatives from the family need to be involved.”

http://www.eadt.co.uk/content/news/story.asp?datetime=15+Sep+2004+05:55&tbrand=EADOnline&tCategory=NEWS&category=News&brand=EADOnline&itemid=IPED14+Sep+2004+20:55:50:687

See also the bound in skin thread:
forteantimes.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10602
Link is obsolete. The current link is:
https://forums.forteana.org/index.php?threads/books-bound-in-human-skin.757/
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I sometimes wonder how people work themselves up this way.

If a relative of an ancestor of mine had been hanged for murder around 200 years ago, it's really nothing more than a family story at this distance in time.

The book is a bit gruesome, but it's passed into history. No one alive today can really claim to have any real emotional involvement in a case that's passed out of living memory.
 
Maria Marten or Murder in the Old Red Barn was a very popular
Victorian melodrama. It was "framed" as a play-within-the-movie
in 1936 when it was filmed with the wonderful Tod Slaughter
as Corder. The main point about these supposedly OTT melodramas
was that their genre distancing enabled fairly frank treatment of
such matters of seduction which were not permitted in contemporary
settings. Only Hindle Wakes was more daring.

Though Slaughter is usually referred to disparagingly as a scenery-chewer,
his main stock-in-trade was a kind of balletic delight in his own wickedness.

I can recall my Grandmother mentioning Maria Marten as a powerful
horror picture. I wonder if she knew it was directed by one Milton
Rosmer (ps. for Arthur Milton Lunt, 1881 - 1971, born and died in our
own town of Southport, Lancs.) :)
 
A bit OT:

James Whitehead said:
...Only Hindle Wakes was more daring....

A somewhat underated play, by a writer who died early and made the mistake of being born in Lancashire rather than Scandinavia
 
Timble said:
I sometimes wonder how people work themselves up this way.

If a relative of an ancestor of mine had been hanged for murder around 200 years ago, it's really nothing more than a family story at this distance in time.

The book is a bit gruesome, but it's passed into history. No one alive today can really claim to have any real emotional involvement in a case that's passed out of living memory.

I was thinking the same thing. I am related to a Reverand Cooper who was burned at the stake for some reason or other. Theres a statue of him at Winchester Cathedal, but I'm not bothered. I'm not going to go off and avenge his death!
I feel that this woman has too much time on her hand, or is slighlty mad or has a book to publicise
 
Yes indeed, Timble. I should read the original play - I was writing on
the strength of a viewing of Victor Saville's 1931 film version. It is
pretty surprising stuff for that date as the wonderful Belle Chrystal
asserts a lass's rights to take the same freedoms as a man.

Lord, now I'm curious to see this 1918 silent version:

http://www.learmedia.ca/product_info.php/cPath/19/products_id/125

Hindle Wakes - Maurice Elvey, Stanley Houghton 1918 $24.99US
VHS
Stanley Houghton's play Hindle Wakes caused something of a sensation on its first staging in 1912, with its greatly daring premise that a young woman could regard sex in the same way as a man might - as a 'bit of fun' that need not necessarily lead to the altar.

Set in the Lancashire cotton town of Hindle, the drama unfolds during the 'wakes' - the one week of the year when the cotton mills closed down and the workers set about some serious holidaymaking. Most of the young workers head for Blackpool, and in these sequences the director's love of location filming is evident in his exuberant camerawork in the Palais Ballroom, at the Tower, on the Big Dipper and the Helter Skelter rides, and of course, among the illuminations.

The music has been specially composed for the film by Sheffield-based In the Nursery, whose live performance tours with silent classics such as The Cabinet of Doctor Caligari and Asphalt attract sell-out audiences.


cast: Norman McKinnel .... Nate Jeffcoate
Colette O'Neil (III) .... Fanny Hawthorne
Hayford Hobbs .... Alan Jeffcoate
Ada King .... Mrs. Hawthorne
Runtime: 116 minutes
Country: UK
Color: Black and White
Sound Mix: Silent

:eek:
 
Confusion reigns so maybe someone out there can help me out...

Wasn't the nursery rhyme that ends "here comes a candle to light you to bed and here comes a chopper to chop off your head" something to do with the Red Barn Murders or was that something to do with Lizzie Borden and didn't she murder someone in a barn in America sometime in the 1800's???

:confused:
 
bulldog said:
Confusion reigns so maybe someone out there can help me out...

Wasn't the nursery rhyme that ends "here comes a candle to light you to bed and here comes a chopper to chop off your head" something to do with the Red Barn Murders or was that something to do with Lizzie Borden and didn't she murder someone in a barn in America sometime in the 1800's???

:confused:

The H2G2 has a great entry on this with this explanation:

The Meaning

There are many possible meanings to the rhyme. One is that it is about the poverty that was around London at the time it became popular, one that it is about King Henry VIII and the speed with which some of his brides were despatched, and another is that it is about sex, particularly, the wedding night. To explain the third meaning, the fullest version of the rhyme1 is repeated at the end of the entry. It could be seen as a Wedding List; and was the five farthings the cost of a Marriage License?

* Old shoes and slippers - These were commonly thrown after brides on their wedding day.
* Old Father Baldgate - possibly a description of a phallus.
* Here comes a candle to light you to bed - the bride is tempting her new bridegroom to bed.
* Here comes a chopper to chop off your head - the 'head' referred to is the 'maidenhead' (virginity).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/A696125

And another interpretation:

http://www.rhymes.org.uk/oranges_and_lemons.htm
 
* Here comes a chopper to chop off your head - the 'head' referred to is the 'maidenhead' (virginity).
:eek!!!!:

So what about Lizzie Borden then?
 
bulldog said:
:eek!!!!:

So what about Lizzie Borden then?

As it is from Oranges and Lemons and predates both Lizzie Borden and the Red Barn Murders I don't think there is any connection.
 
The second twist is that Lizzie was indeed in the barn in the time interval she claimed to be -- say, ten thirty to eleven -- because there was running water in the barn, where she could remove some of Abby's blood from her skirts and the hatchet. Also, the barn had a large vise, where she could break off the handle of the hatchet, burn the handle in the kitchen stove, and dip the cleaned, wet hatchet head in wood ashes.

I knew there was a barn involved.....

"Lizzie Borden took an axe and gave her mother forty wacks
When she saw what she had done she gave her father forty-one"

Confusion ends...
 
This 2019 Mental Floss article provides a detailed overview of the Red Barn Murder story. One thing emphasized here (but not mentioned above) is that the inquiry that uncovered the murder was motivated by a recurrent dream.

Murder in the Red Barn: The Crime Solved by a Dream
BY LUCAS REILLY
JANUARY 29, 2019

https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/569826/red-barn-murder
 
As far as I can recall (too lazy to research), one Fortean factor in the Red Barn Murder was the dream of a relative(?) which led to the search in the barn for the remains?
 
As far as I can recall ... one Fortean factor in the Red Barn Murder was the dream of a relative(?) which led to the search in the barn for the remains?

The Red Barn Murder story became heavily encrusted with post hoc claims and glosses over the years. I wonder whether the recurring dream bit was "authentic" versus being one of these subsequent elaborations / add-ons.
 
Maria Marten or Murder in the Old Red Barn was a very popular
Victorian melodrama.

Ha, I remember my dad having the script to this lying around - must have been in the early 80s. I think we went to see it, but can't remember where. (When your father spent half his life performing for multiple amateur dramatic companies, it gets a bit hard to remember which was which!)
 
Not sure about the tangent I‘m on but I coincidentally listened to a podcast last night that mentioned red barns. But it was something to do with traitors painting their barn roofs red so the German paratroopers in WWII would know where to land when the Wehrmacht invaded.
HA! little did they know Mainwaring and Pike were waiting for them.
 
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