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Reincarnation? The Case Of Carl Edon

rynner2

Gone But Not Forgotten
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Fortean Times arrived today (hooray!) and it contains a really good reincarnation story. Since this subject has not been dealt with much on this board it seems worth starting a thread on it.

The FT story concerns Carl Edon of Middlesbrough, who claimed from childhood that he had been a WWII German airman killed in a crash in 1942. A recently discovered photo of turret gunner Heinrich Richter certainly closely resembles Edon, and the wreckage of the Dornier was excavated in 1997. This revealed that Richter had lost a leg in the crash, as Edon had always claimed.

Bizzarely, the crash site is not far from where Carl Edon was stabbed to death in 1995 at the age of 22. (Richter died aged 24.)

This seems to be one of the best authenticated cases of reincarnation that I've heard of. Any locals from that area have more details? I'm off to check with Google for anything online.... and found nothing about this case.
 
I haven't received my FT yet, Rynner:( but I remember reading about Carl Edon in our local newpaper (The Evening Gazette) I also remember reading about the Dornier and I saw parts of the wreckage and so on on display at one of our local museums.

I'm sure I have some newspaper clippings about it. I'll have a look this afternoon (after housework duties:( ) and see what I can find for you.

Carole
 
rynner I think reincarnation is one of the hardest things to prove.
If reincarnation was more common some people would accept it. THe problem with reincarnation is that so few people actually beleive they used to be a different person. To claim your Elvis, all you need to do is a bit of research, have similar facial looks etc. THis means that reincarnation is very difficult to prove. MOst peole are phonies trying to cash in on their "reincarnation". I beleive that sometimes people have visions of deceased people and suprise others by relealing a hitherto unknown piece of information about them. Its not that I do not beleive in reincarnation, I think its very imprecise.
 
That was quick, Carole!

I did Google on the Evening Gazette as well, but turned up nothing relevent.

What is especially interesting about this case, apart from the likeness in the photos, is the fact that Carl (a fine Germanic name, even!) was killed before the wreckage of the plane, with it's corroborating evidence, was discovered. There is also the detail about the railway line that both men had followed on the day of their deaths.
 
Rynner, I've found the Evening Gazette website here: http://www.eveninggazette.co.uk

Key in 'Dornier' on the search facility and it'll bring up some articles that should be of interest to you.

Carole

Here is an excerpt from the Carl Edon article and a direct link to it ...
The uncanny case of Carl Edon

For years before he was brutally murdered Carl Edon tried to convince his family that he was reincarnated. Today his astonished parents believe they have been given extraordinary photographic evidence.

Young Middlesbrough dad Carl had spoken since he was just three years old of vivid flashbacks to a former life as a Nazi airman killed when his plane was shot down in 1942. ...

Now startling new photos, unearthed after dogged detective work by a local historian, reveal a chilling resemblance between Carl and a German airman, Heinrich Richter, buried in a Thornaby cemetery.

Richter, a turret gunner, perished when his Dornier bomber crashed onto a South Bank railway during a raid exactly 60 years ago today... January 15, 1942.

The wreckage of the Dornier, damaged by anti-aircraft fire before hitting a barrage balloon, was discovered in 1997 buried off Tilbury Road - only a few hundred yards from the spot where Carl was stabbed to death two years earlier. ...
FULL STORY (With Photos): https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/local-news/uncanny-case-carl-edon-3857619
 
Last edited by a moderator:
carole said:
Rynner, I've found the Evening Gazette website here:

http://www.eveninggazette.co.uk

Key in 'Dornier' on the search facility and it'll bring up some articles that should be of interest to you.

Carole
Thanks, Carole, brilliant articles. But the pics in FT are better than the versions on the website, especially the one of the gunner.

Killer's sentence cut:

more on Carl's murder

A very interesting case. But no doubt the Skeptics are already girding their loins to do battle...!
 
This case is really getting to me!

The Ft article also mentions this book, "The Children That Time Forgot", Harrison, Peter and Harrison, Mary, 1991, that gives details of Carl's memories. Note the publication date - this book was written while Carl was still a teenager, and obviously before his tragic death and the later discovery of the crashed Dornier.

Google list the book as being on Amazon, but oddly enough it's not on the pages Google points to! However, I did find it here, where there is also much else on reincarnation.

So what do we have? A child who recounts documented stories of a past life. He has a birthmark on his leg - he said he lost the leg in the plane crash. As a young man he is murdered, not far from where, just a couple of years later, the wrecked plane is rediscovered, with the amputated leg still in it. A researcher manages to contact relatives of the dead German flyer, and locates a picture of him, which bears a remarkable similarity to pictures of Carl.

Since Carl was a murder victim, he was probably given a post mortem, which should have recorded the presence of the birthmark.

If all this isn't evidence for reincarnation, or something very similar, I find it hard to imagine what would be. People have been hung on less evidence!

EDIT: I've just found reference to 1983 edition of the Harrisons' book - I don't know if Carl's case is included there. He would have been about 10 yo then.
 
Getting killed not far from where the plane is found can't really be considered evidence can it?

Also when is he supposed to have lost the leg, in the plane crash?
 
Xanatic said:
Getting killed not far from where the plane is found can't really be considered evidence can it?

Also when is he supposed to have lost the leg, in the plane crash?
The evidence is in the child's stories, which were then corroborated by the excavation of the crash.

The places where the young men died being so close could be coincidence, as could the similarities in their appearance, but at some stage you have to ask, when does a string of coincidences amount to something more?

What I am saying is that the reincarnation hypothesis is the simplest explanation for all these facts and 'coincidences'.

Yes, the leg was lost in the crash - read the links given earlier by Carole.

On another website I found this comment on the Harrison's book:

C.E. claims he was a German pilot and walks around goose-stepping; his mother comments on his strange eyes.

(The initials fit Carl Edon, although the German was a gunner, not a pilot. Does anyone have this book - it would be fascinating to read exactly what was written about the child.)
 
EUREKA!!

I knew I had the Harrison book somewhere!

There are about 6 pages of quite closely printed text, Rynner. What would you like me to do? Scan the pages and email them to you from work on Monday, or photocopy themand fax/post 'em to you?

PMl me and let me know.

Carole
 
That's great, Carole, but your PM inbox is full! (I'll try later.)

But tell us here, which edition is it? (83, 91, etc?) Did you get it because of the local interest, or was that yet another 'coincidence'...?!
 
It was just a coincidence and me being interested in that sort of stuff. I'd never heard of Carl Edon before.

BTW, I typed out the full text of the story (aren't I excessively kind and thoughtful?:p ) So here it is. I'll still look out for those newspaper cuttings, though.

------------------------

Taken from “The Children That Time Forgot”, by Peter & Mary Harrison, Sinclair Publishing Edition, 1989:


When young Carl Edon plays wsith his toy planes, his parents believe that it is not purely childish behaviour but is an action replay of the time when Carl remembers he was a pilot in the German Air force.

“As soon as he could talk he used to tell us that he once crashed his plan into the windows of a building,” says his mother, Valerie. “We gather that he eventually died from multiple injuries sustained in the crash. We thought it strange that he should say such a thing, for as a tiny toddler he never showed any real interest in adventure stories and he had no time for looking at war films or such things.”

Valerie Edon went on to explain that as he grew older and started to gain more command over his speech the story became more detailed and he told it in such a matter-of-fact way that she and her husband felt that they could no longer dismiss it out of hand as a little toddler’s day-dream.

The incident which really persuaded the Edons that Carl’s story had a ring of truth to it occurred when Carl fist learnt to draw and to colour. Like most small children he went through the stage of experimenting with his coloured pencils and crayons and he had the usual colouring-in books and children’s puzzle books in which he used to join up the dots to make a picture. One day he sat with his crayons and colouring-in book, but instead of colouring in the drawings, his mother noticed that he had drawn peculiar looking badges and motifs all over the page.

The neatness of the drawing was the thing that most caught Valerie’s attention. Unlike the normal scribbles of a 3 yr old, Carl’s little drawings were definite precise examples of various badges and insignia which Valerie confesses were completely foreign to her, except for one little drawing. There on the top corner his colouring book Carl had drawn a perfect German swastika inside a circle, thus making it look like a badge. There were other small badges drawn with the expertise of a professional artist.

When Valerie questioned her son about the badges he replied, “That’s the kind of badges I swore on my uniform when I used to drive my plane.”

More surprises were in store when shortly after Carl’s 5th birthday he drew the cockpit of his plane. He remembered the exact positions of all the various controls and he explained to his bewildered parents the functions of each lever, dial and gauge. He even knew the location of the button which he remembers having to press in order to release the bombs.

Carl’s father was intrigued with the amount of minute detail in his small son’s drawings, particularly as he knew that Carl had never ever been in a plane of any description and had certainly never been in a cockpit. “I don’t see how he could have got the information,” said his father, “He certainly couldn’t have got it from a picture book because we would have noticed, and in any case he did not possess any picture books containing German planes or cockpits.”

The little boy can remember how he enlisted in the Luftwaffe, the German Air Force, when he was 19 years of age and he was stationed in a large air-force camp with a lot of huts in rows. Carl explains, “The huts had sinks in them, but no taps for the water. The water came out of a pump.” The boy recalls that he and his comrades were all trained in first aid and anyone who was injured was treated by the men themselves. All of them were called upon to perform this duty.

Valerie and her husband were taken aback when their young son suddenly told them that he had been made to salute a framed picture of Hitler. “I couldn’t believe my ears,” said Valerie, “I had no idea that he ever knew, or had even heard of, the name of Hitler. It certainly was never a topic of conversation at home.”

According to Carl, the troops were ordered to gather in a large assembly hall. He says, “There was a picture of Hitler on the wall and we all had to stamp our feet and salute to this picture.” He can demonstrate the stamp and the salute, which he executes as if they were second nature to him.

In reply to his mothers question about what he wore when he was in the hall, he says, “Grey trousers tucked into knee-high leather boots and a black jacket.” His parents did not really believe that what their son described was a proper German uniform, so without telling their child they went along to their local library and looked up some books, only to find that Carl had given a perfectly correct description of his uniform, badges and the cockpit of his plane.

His parents were able to check even the smallest details of Carl’s drawings against photographs which they found in an old book on German planes of the last war.

Carl can reconstruct in chilling detail his crash into the windows of the building. He was flying low over some buildings and he must have lost consciousness for a few moments: as he described things, “It went all black for a moment.” When he came round in the cockpit of his plane he was aware of a building rushing towards him at great speed. He desperately wrenched at the controls in a frantic effort to avert the collision, but he was too late. The plane bulldozed its way right through the large glass windows of the building.

Carl remembers the horrendous sensation which swept over him as he realized that he had lost his right leg. The shock of the crash and the loss of his limb, combined with his other injuries, affected him so severely that he died very shortly after the crash.

Sadly the fatal blow affected not only Carl, but a pretty young fraulein from Carl’s village back in Germany, to whom he was engaged to be married. They had been childhood sweethearts and had grown up together, although she was several years younger than he. He remembered his thoughts just before he died and how he felt great compassion for his young fiancée, knowing that she would ultimately be given the shattering news of his death. In Carl’s typical understatement, “I felt so sorry for her.”

Although Carl cannot recall much of what happened after he died, he is acutely aware of having had a younger brother who was also a pilot, and the strange thing is that he is convinced that this younger brother died shortly after he himself bled to death amongst the twisted debris of his wrecked plane.

He has clear memories of his father in his previous life, whose name was Fritz. Carl seems to have been very fond of the man, who appears to have been a jovial character. Carl says of him, “He was so funny and always made me laugh, and he took me for nice walks in the woods.” He told Carl all about the trees and the flowers and plants that they would see on their rambles in the woods near their home in Germany. The village they lived in was picturesque, and nestled among hills and lush woodlands. “It was not a very big place,” says Carl, “But I liked it.”

His mother was the disciplinarian of the family and Carl remembers her as being small and plump with dark curly hair and smallish glasses which she used to wear on the end of her nose. “She was a bit bossy,” says the boy, “And I always had to do what I was told.”

He was made to do his share of the household tasks and he remembers that his regular chore was to gather the wood for the large open fires in their home. He has distinct memories of chopping up long tree trunks into small logs, then carting them home in his barrow to be stored as fuel. The smell of the newly chopped logs made a vivid impression on the young boy. He describes it as “a nice fresh smell which always reminds me of the woods.”

Other smells which linger in Carl’s consciousness are those of cooking. He remembers how he used to be served a type of soup. “It wasn’t like the soup I get now,” he says, “It was a dark red colour and was quite thick. My mother made it nearly every day.” Then Carl added with a laugh, “I used to get other things to eat as well, only I can’t remember what the other things were like. But I know I got them as well as the soup.”

Valerie Edon wonders if there could be any connection between Carl’s memories of his past life and other members of her family. She says, “My sister in law is German by birth and her father was a German pilot during the last war.” She wonders if it is only coincidence that this man was also killed in action, being brought down by the British while he was at the controls of his plane.

While this sister in law was still a baby, her mother re-married an Englishman in Germany and then moved to England where the family have since settled. The baby was adopted by the English step father. Valerie muses over the possibility that by some strange twist of fate, she has given birth to the child who was really meant for her sister in law to bear.

Valerie’s other two children, Darren and Angela, are completely different from their brother Carl. Both are well built with dark hair and tan complexions, whereas Carl is of a slight build with pale blond hair and white eyelashes.

The Edons are still wondering why they felt compelled to call their little boy by the name of Carl. “It is a most incredible thing,” says Valerie, “Because we decided to call him Carl not knowing that he would have any connections with Germany.”

At a visit to Carl’s school on a parents’ evening recently, Valerie spoke to Carl’s teacher who said, “He has strange eyes, and when I an talking to him about anything his eyes pierce straight through me.” The teacher went on to tell Valerie that if she gives Carl a sum to do, he gives her the correct answer in a flash. “When I ask him how he worked it out, he just doesn’t answer me. He seems to think that there is no need to bother working things out when he knows the answer already.”

Carl, now an extremely bright 9 year old, has a perfectionist streak in him which belies his years. He is ultra precise in his manner, and is more than particular about his appearance and clothes. His mother takes great pains to have everything just so for him: the collars of his shirts must be beautifully ironed, and everything has to be scrupulously clean at all times. Could this possibly be a hangover from his strict military days?

“We had a visitor in for tea recently,” laughed Valerie, “And Carl almost frightened the life out of her by solemnly describing in amazing detail all about Adolf Hitler, accompanied by goose steps and salutes.

“As he gets older, though,” says Valerie, “Carl doesn’t say too much about his mysterious past life. It’s as though he only remembers the odd flash every now and then.” His mother has noticed that he is not particularly interested in watching war films on television but when he does he sometimes points out a mistake in the German uniform. Once he pointed to an actor playing a German NCO and said, “He is just like my sergeant.”

Perhaps the reason for Carl’s lack of enthusiasm for war films could be that they remind him too much of the real thing. Who could blame him for not wanting to bring back to his conscious mind those horrific days of violence and death?

Carole
 
Well thank you for that, Carole. This is all fascinating stuff!

Now, if you wouldn't mind typing out historian Bill Norman's book as well... :D


The extract from the Harrisons' book does seem to suggest Carl thought of himself as a pilot rather than a gunner, though. Possibly this is because he really wanted to be a pilot, but another possible explantion comes from considering the aircraft itself, the Dornier 217E.

There is some info on this on this webpage (about three quarters of the way down). The plane appears to have TWO gun turrets, one in the nose and another behind the cockpit. (Many pages found in a Google search were devoted to model making, but have pics showing the after turret better.) EDIT: This page shows the plane better (including versions with a third gun turret in the belly), and details some other versions of the plane. It's interesting, in view of the way Heinrich's plane lost a wing to a barrage balloon, that the "1941 version of this last aircraft, designated Do 217E-4, was generally similar except that it had BMW 801C engines and introduced cable-cutters in the wing leading edges".

If Heinrich had been stationed in the forward turret, however, he would certainly have had an even better view of the crash than the pilot, and this position would have been ideal too for being a bomb-aimer.

Perhaps we need an aviation expert to comment (Inverurie, where are you?), since there were many versions of this plane; and a more detailed description of the excavation of the wreck would be useful too.
 
One thing leads to another...

Luftwaffe Ranks and insignia

With this page you can find the English equivalent of Oberfeldwebel Heinrich Richter's rank. (Compare these insignia with those in the photo in FT.)

It seemed worth mentioning this page since much was made in the Harrison's account of how Carl as a child would make detailed drawings of such badges.
 
Rynner, I've unearthed the original Evening Gazette articles about the Dornier, dated late November and early December 1997, and a couple of articles dated almost a year later about the interment of the Luftwaffe airmen's bodies.

If you want copies PM me to let me know how you want them sending. No, I'm not going to type them out for you!
;)

Carole
 
rynner said:
(Compare these insignia with those in the photo in FT.)

Bleeding well can't.

You appear to be the only person in the country with a copy of this issue!

Who delivers your mail, Dr. Who?
 
I commiserate, Derek, I'm still waiting for mine - I thought my mum had pinched it again. She's been hooked on it ever since the issue which mentioned the man with two willies . . .

Carole
 
They must be showing preference to Cornwall. I picked up mine from the newsagents (yesterday) afternoon

2 notes
the aircraft was damaged by anti-aircraft fire before hitting the barrage cable. If the flight crew was disabled then the nose gunner would probably have a go at flying

Much of the behaviors that young Carl seemed familiar with would have been viewable on the TV. It is highly likely there was one in his vicinity in the early '70s
 
intaglio said:
Much of the behaviors that young Carl seemed familiar with would have been viewable on the TV. It is highly likely there was one in his vicinity in the early '70s
Hmm, maybe, but remember his parents said he didn't take much interest in war films. They found his behaviour strange, and so do I - goose-stepping and giving Heil Hitler salutes! How many young kids do you know who do that?

And the detailed drawings of the luftwaffe insignia seems very weird.

Or not, if you're prepared to consider reincarnation as a reality. But some people are so opposed to such ideas they'll try all sorts of alternative explanations rather than the most obvious one. It's rather as if the polce were to find a body with a bullet hole, and a man standing nearby with a smoking gun, and they say, "Well, he could have been scaring the birds off his grass seed, or perhaps he was shooting tin cans off the wall..."

I find it significant that his behaviour was odd enough to get written about in a book published in 1983 (the Harrisons mention that he was then aged 9, so his story must have been in the first edition), well before any link to the crashed Dornier came to light.

Derek, try the pic on this page (one of the pages from the evening gazette). As I said before, it's not as clear as the one in FT, but you can just about make out his lapel badge and epaulette insignia.
 
Valerie Edon wonders if there could be any connection between Carl’s memories of his past life and other members of her family. She says, “My sister in law is German by birth and her father was a German pilot during the last war.” She wonders if it is only coincidence that this man was also killed in action, being brought down by the British while he was at the controls of his plane.

I wonder if the sister-in-law babysat for young Carl - telling him family stories perhaps?

Jane.
 
I wondered that to Mejane, but then I saw that sister-in-law came to England when still a baby, whether pre- or post- war it doesn't say but I suspect the last.

That would make it 1946 - 50 with S-i-L born round '42 - '48. Didn't Carl say that Richter left a girlfriend? The chance that Carls great aunt was that girlfriend is vanishingly small but is there. For a formal proof you'd need to know more about S-i-L and her family.

It doesn't explain the leg though
 
Yes, I'd like to know more about the family relationships and ages. Perhaps we could send Carole round to check it out! ;)
 
intaglio said:
Much of the behaviors that young Carl seemed familiar with would have been viewable on the TV. It is highly likely there was one in his vicinity in the early '70s

Yes, but a child of his age wouldn't necessarily have taken in such details as Carl seems to have shown, nor would have any war films have shown much cockpit detail,

I can't wait to get my FT copy to see those insignia that Carl himself drew.

I wonder if Carl showed any knowledge of the German language? The Harrisons' book doesn't mention this.

Carole
 
rynner said:
Yes, I'd like to know more about the family relationships and ages. Perhaps we could send Carole round to check it out! ;)

Oh, no, don't send me there, I'm only an innocent Stockton lass - MIddlesbrough's cannibal country, you know!

Carole
 
Sadly, FT doesn't show any of Carl's drawings - I wonder if his parents kept any?
 
carole said:
he sometimes points out a mistake in the German uniform. Once he pointed to an actor playing a German NCO and said, “He is just like my sergeant.”
Carole

Hell, I do that! People who claim to have been reincarnated seem to have always lived in the same country in their past life...is it then possible that he was left stranded by the crash, being reincarnated in the wrong place?
I don't think I have much to add to Rynner's description of the
Do 217E. I have one on my windowsill, y'know. I feel all surplus to requirements...my only chance to be useful and I was drowning in a bog in Catterick...
 
Inverurie Jones said:
I don't think I have much to add to Rynner's description of the
Do 217E. I have one on my windowsill, y'know.
You don't happen to go around doing Heil Hitler salutes as well, do you? :D
 
I'm with Rynner on this one,you can only stretch a coincidence so far and the resemblance between the two is very striking, btw, got my coppy three days ago.
 
Roy Hudd

Sorry, this is a tangent of sorts.

I remember hearing that Roy Hudd (yes, that Roy Hudd) had been troubled by recurring dreams since childhood. One day, he visited a friend's house for the first time and realised this was the house he had dreamt about exploring for years. Hudd went through the house - describing each room before entering it - particularly the mirrors in the basement which always featured heavily in the dreams. It turns out the house was once home to Dan Leno (old style English comedian of yesteryear), and the room with the mirrors is where he would rehearse. Apparently Roy H was so affected by the experience that he then made a TV prog about Leno. After the programme aired, he got letters from people who claimed to have encountered Leno's ghost in one form or another.

So what I'm thinking is maybe it's not strictly reincarnation, but perhaps some sensitive people can pick up on things - intense emotional moments and the like.

The FT story is interesting and spooky. I was wondering if there would've been people talking about the planes going down in the area that he could've picked up on as a child?

Oh, and as the proud bearer of not one, but two rather prominent and strange birthmarks, I suspect that if there is such a thing as reincarnation, I must've come to a rather sticky end the last time I was here. :p
 
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