Religious And Legal Reaction To Discovery Of Living Hominid

[Tunn11]

I thought there was a thread on this but I can’t find anything..

I’m wondering what the reaction of the Major religions would be to the finding of another hominid species. I mean Homo sapiens megapode or whatever and not a great ape with bipedal locomotion.

There have been statements IIRC from the Catholic church about finding intelligent life on other worlds but I’m not aware of anything on finding other human species here on Earth.

Creationists make a great show that finding a living dinosaur would prove them right, I can’t see how as finding the coelacanth hasn’t proved anything of the sort. But what would their reaction be to other hominids? What would be the reaction to God creating two, or more, sorts of man? Is this hinted at by stories like Esau and Jacob and Gilgamesh and Enkidu?

What of the other religions; Judaism, Islam, Hindu, Buddhism, etc.?

What would be the legal position of this discovery? IIRC H Beam Piper touched on this in the “Fuzzy Papers – which I have a recollection of seeing as a film but I can’t find anything about it.

Would these reactions form the basis for hushing up the discovery thus creating another conspiracy theory.

Anyone any ideas or insights?

 

[JahaRa]

I thought there was a thread on this but I can’t find anything..

I’m wondering what the reaction of the Major religions would be to the finding of another hominid species. I mean Homo sapiens megapode or whatever and not a great ape with bipedal locomotion.

There have been statements IIRC from the Catholic church about finding intelligent life on other worlds but I’m not aware of anything on finding other human species here on Earth.

Creationists make a great show that finding a living dinosaur would prove them right, I can’t see how as finding the coelacanth hasn’t proved anything of the sort. But what would their reaction be to other hominids? What would be the reaction to God creating two, or more, sorts of man? Is this hinted at by stories like Esau and Jacob and Gilgamesh and Enkidu?

What of the other religions; Judaism, Islam, Hindu, Buddhism, etc.?

What would be the legal position of this discovery? IIRC H Beam Piper touched on this in the “Fuzzy Papers – which I have a recollection of seeing as a film but I can’t find anything about it.

Would these reactions form the basis for hushing up the discovery thus creating another conspiracy theory.

Anyone any ideas or insights?

There are Neanderthals, Denosovians, and a few other people that have been on the planet. If you have european ancestors you probably have Neandertal DNA, proof that they existed the same time as homo sapiens. So what is your actual question, are you talking about finding more versions of people or what? And why do you not think "god" did not create 2 or more sorts of man?

I can tell that you really don't like "creationists" based on your comments, so what is it you believe and what would your reaction be?

As for the legal position, what are you referring to? Are you referring to actual living beings that are not homo sapiens being considered people?

 

[Xanatic*]

In the Bible you have the character of Esau, who seems to have been surprisingly hairy.

 

[Erinaceus]

Maybe Esau was suffering from hypertrichosis.

 

[Tunn11]

There are Neanderthals, Denosovians, and a few other people that have been on the planet. If you have european ancestors you probably have Neandertal DNA, proof that they existed the same time as homo sapiens. So what is your actual question, are you talking about finding more versions of people or what? And why do you not think "god" did not create 2 or more sorts of man?

I can tell that you really don't like "creationists" based on your comments, so what is it you believe and what would your reaction be?

As for the legal position, what are you referring to? Are you referring to actual living beings that are not homo sapiens being considered people?

To clarify. Finding living representatives of other species of Homo Sapiens, ones that are known from the fossil record or any that aren't. I accept that modern humans are a mix of other hominids and that others have lived on the planet but so far we only have one recognised living species.

If god or gods created man I see no reason why he or she or whatever god is didn't create more than one type. However I don't hold any strong religious views so I'm asking what the view would be from those that do or what' if any the religion's stance would be if indeed it has one. My reaction would be that it no more proves or disproves the existence of a god than fossils and or DNA evidence do. However it is easier to say that fossils are somehow fake than it would be to claim living representatives of another human species are.

I don't dislike creationists, I've known a couple and we've had good natured debates and agreed to differ. They are welcome to their views, I just don't understand how finding a living, non avian, dinosaur would prove their belief, nor could they really explain it to me.

As to the legal position there are lots of living beings that are not human beings and are not regarded as people, in fact there are people who have historically not been regarded as people. What would be the legal position of a race of Homo sapiens x as opposed to Homo sapiens sapiens found living in the USA or Tibet? I suppose it comes down to what is the legal definition of a Human?

To complicate matters further what of Hominins, probably mid way between true homo sapiens and the great apes? There have been debates on the legal rights of apes, who I think are still regarded legally as animals; what if a tribe of living Homo habilis turned up somewhere?

 

[Tunn11]

Maybe Esau was suffering from hypertrichosis.

That's a very hairy baby Ted.
https://en-gb.facebook.com/all4/videos/father-ted-milk-man/1304109216390428/

 

[PeteByrdie]

I don't dislike creationists, I've known a couple and we've had good natured debates and agreed to differ. They are welcome to their views, I just don't understand how finding a living, non avian, dinosaur would prove their belief, nor could they really explain it to me.

The creationist idea is that tales of living non-avian dinosaurs, pterosaurs, plesiosaurs and so on would disprove evolution, which in their minds means 'therefore, our God'. There's no reason some species of dinosaurs couldn't have survived the Cretaceous-Paleogene extinction, not least because, as birds, they clearly did but furthermore many other species survived that event to have living descendants today including our ancestors. All science says is that we've found no surviving non-avian dinosaurs nor evidence of their existence beyond the K-Pg boundary. Creationists seem to think evolution and deep time is dependent on dinosaurs having become extinct 66 million years ago. It doesn't. They contend that dinosaurs lived alongside man within the last 6000 years, and probably didn't make the Ark's launch. Finding a living dinosaur derivative would prove their assertion that dinosaurs died out a few thousand years ago and disprove they died out 66 million years ago, in their minds. Somehow.

I suspect they haven't failed to make you understand their argument, it's just so flawed you probably think there must be something you're missing.

 

[Frideswide]

Unified Old Catholic: Glory to God for the diversity and wonder of the creation. How can we protect this new species and encourage it to flourish?

Caedmon's Hymn

Now must we hymn the Master of heaven,
The might of the Maker, the deeds of the Father,
The thought of His heart. He, Lord everlasting,
Established of old the source of all wonders:
Creator all-holy, He hung the bright heaven,
A roof high upreared, o'er the children of men;
The King of mankind then created for mortals
The world in its beauty, the earth spread beneath them,
He, Lord everlasting, omnipotent God.

Whatever the evolutionary twists and turns, if the new species are children of men or not, that isn't the priority.

 

[Endlessly Amazed]

I suspect the Roman Catholics would baptize him very quickly, and then assign the poor creature to a local parish. Maybe the creature could help with bingo games.

 

[Frideswide]

I suspect the Roman Catholics would baptize him very quickly, and then assign the poor creature to a local parish. Maybe the creature could help with bingo games.

damn I missed that! will it bake cakes and run the tombola stall?????

 

[Tunn11]

damn I missed that! will it bake cakes and run the tombola stall?????

Or be allowed to join the WI?
Would She/He/It be allowed to become a priest or marry in the church?

 

[Frideswide]

Or be allowed to join the WI?
Would She/He/It be allowed to become a priest or marry in the church?

If per chose to join the Unified Old Catholics, with informed consent, then the answer is yes,

 

[ramonmercado]

If per chose to join the Unified Old Catholics, with informed consent, then the answer is yes,

could even become Primate of the UOCs in Scotland.

 

[lordmongrove]

Its an interesting question. Would a being in the genus Homo be given status the same as modern man.? Would it be offered a vote? The biologist Gregory Panchenko thinks that if an almasty baby was raised by modern humans it would learn to talk.
I think the more fundy branches of the major religions would have a total meldown. I saw a youtube posting by an islamic preacher telling his followers that Homo floresiensis was an ape not a hominin because there was no such thing as evolution. The moron had not a scrap of knowledge of natural history. There was another cringeworthy clip were two creationists bleating about how paleontologists made things up because of the reconstruction of the austrolopithacine 'Lucy' having feet when the fossil feet were unknown. Well the Lucy specimen did not have intact feet but dozens of other have been found with preserved foot bones and we even have fossil footprints that show the shape of the feet with flesh, muscle and skin on. The two arseholes went on to say that bananas were bendy because god made them that way so they would be easy for humans to hold. In reality they are bendy due to captive cultivation and selective breeding. Wild bananas are lemon shaped and have hard seeds. If you proved the existence of a hominin to these backwards types with brains stuck in the dark ages they would freak out or claim it was a 'demon' sent by the devil to test their faith or proof of god because he created 'cave men' and would not let them go extinct. You can't argue with mad men.
Also, if a population of these creatures was found in an area ruled by fundy god nuts, say the mountains of Afghanistan, would they be hunted down and killed out of religious superstition?

 

[kamalktk]

This strikes me as similar to a discussion of the same thing about alien life.

 

[Tunn11]

So to pursue my argument could a chimp join the Unified Old Catholics and if so could they become priests, etc. ?
Taxonomists may decide they are genus Homo but what would the law say and what would various religious leaders say?
From what @lordmongrove said the reception they may get could be downright hostile.
@kamaltik It imay similar to the discussion on alien life, but unless we are related in some way, I'd argue not quite the same. Hominids may have been here before us, do they have legal claim to the area they live in or even the planet?

 

[BlackPeter]

I remember an SF book (can't remember author) which is written from the point of view of Samuel Pepys set in a world where another species of hominid survived and are treated as a lesser race and employed as servants which explores some of these problems.

 

[ramonmercado]

I remember an SF book (can't remember author) which is written from the point of view of Samuel Pepys set in a world where another species of hominid survived and are treated as a lesser race and employed as servants which explores some of these problems.

This is it, Pepys featured in the story And So To Bed.

A Different Flesh is a collection of alternate history short stories by American writer Harry Turtledove.[1] The stories are set in a world in which Homo erectus and various megafauna survived in the Americas instead of Native Americans or any other human cultures.

Turtledove was inspired to write the story by a Stephen Jay Gould article that speculated as to how humanity’s distant cousin, Australopithecus, would be treated if that species had survived.[2] ...

And So To Bed[edit]​

1661: The story is made up of a series of entries in Samuel Pepys' diary. Pepys owns two sims (which can easily be trained in household chores) and contemplates the origin of the species. By watching these sims, as well as observing various other animals found in North America, Pepys develops the theory of evolution.

Only one of the diary's entries in the story has a corresponding entry in the real diary Pepys kept.[3] ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Different_Flesh

 

[BlackPeter]

And remember what Stephen Jay Gould said "Human equality is a fact contingent on history"

 

[PeteByrdie]

I've been thinking a bit about this, and also recently been exposed to a video in which a well known creationist implied that homosexuality is a sin that should get the death penalty. I'm reminded of my days debating these morons, and of when they'd show hominid skulls and one's that superficially looked more ape-like they'd say were apes, and the ones that looked more human they'd say were human. They were never interested in a deeper investigation, even into the skeletons, because science deniers only look as deep as supports their viewpoint.

If this hypothetical hominid were capable of being converted by those people, they would likely be considered human by them. If they weren't, they'd be classed as apes. You can't be human if you're not capable of a knowledge of God.

I suspect Hindus will have less trouble. Perhaps they'll be descendants of Hanuman.

I think mainstream occidental faiths are very adaptable, which is why they continue to exist, and they'd find a way to incorporate the new species into their view.

 

[Victory]

Judaism.

We believe that there were various other hominids before our type of human.

If some had survived deep in a jungle somewhere, then it would be interesting that they survived the flood (of Noah), but not a surprise that they actually could exist.

 

[PeteByrdie]

Judaism.

We believe that there were various other hominids before our type of human.

If some had survived deep in a jungle somewhere, then it would be interesting that they survived the flood (of Noah), but not a surprise that they actually could exist.

That's interesting. What are the texts about them, and how are they described?

It also just occurred to me Mormons believe bigfoot is Cain. I don't know how they'd cope with a whole species of primitive hominids, but I think they'd adapt their beliefs.

 

[Victory]

They are mentioned in the Torah.
But the mentions need elucidation from various ancient commentaries.

The skeletons of various hominids we keep finding...that's them.

 

[Mythopoeika]

They are mentioned in the Torah.
But the mentions need elucidation from various ancient commentaries.

The skeletons of various hominids we keep finding...that's them.

That's interesting. Because the origins of the Torah are from around 8000 years ago, and the Neanderthals died out 40,000 years ago.
Denisovans died out about 14,500 years ago.
So there's a gap. Maybe some other hominids or even relict populations of Denisovans survived, enough to be recorded in the Torah?

 

[Tunn11]

Where does the story of Lilith (Adam's first wife) and their offspring fit into all of this? (Islam, Judaism and Christianity)? Would she be the source of the idea that other races were demons?

Also does anyone have any idea or knowledge of how various legal sysems would deal with the discovery of relic living hominids/hominins? I guessing this would affect some religious reaction. But how would one prove they were "human"? As @kamalktk says above (Sorry I missspelt you in my answer and didn't notice as I was using my 'phone) that is similar to the debate on the rights of aliens.

 

[Xanatic*]

We might need a way to determine if for example Homo Florensis have a soul. That could get complicated.

 

[PeteByrdie]

That's interesting. Because the origins of the Torah are from around 8000 years ago, and the Neanderthals died out 40,000 years ago.
Denisovans died out about 14,500 years ago.
So there's a gap. Maybe some other hominids or even relict populations of Denisovans survived, enough to be recorded in the Torah?

And then we're back to the question of why so many cultures have myths, often local myths, of hairy beastmen when the evidence of paleontology is that such things existed, but before the beginnings of our current civilisations. Long before the bronze age even. I'm sure that's been picked apart on other threads, but I frequently find myself wondering if relic populations survived.

Where does the story of Lilith (Adam's first wife) and their offspring fit into all of this? (Islam, Judaism and Christianity)? Would she be the source of the idea that other races were demons?

Also does anyone have any idea or knowledge of how various legal sysems would deal with the discovery of relic living hominids/hominins? I guessing this would affect some religious reaction. But how would one prove they were "human"? As @kamalktk says above (Sorry I missspelt you in my answer and didn't notice as I was using my 'phone) that is similar to the debate on the rights of aliens.

I'm sure there would be legal battles as to the rights of such creatures. As far as I know, in principle at least, our legal systems extend to remote tribes, so hopefully they would extend to relic hominids.

We might need a way to determine if for example Homo Florensis have a soul. That could get complicated.

I believe there's precedent for this. Back in medieval times, when a variety of distant non-human peoples where believed in, such as cynocephali, there was debate as to whether they had souls and should be converted to Christianity.

 

[PeteByrdie]

I believe there's precedent for this. Back in medieval times, when a variety of distant non-human peoples where believed in, such as cynocephali, there was debate as to whether they had souls and should be converted to Christianity.

Not even in medieval times, as far as I can tell. Augustine of Hippo had this all figured out in the early 5th century. I think he was sceptical of the existence of monstrous races, but reasoned that, if they existed, they were descendants of Adam, and as such, had souls and could be converted.

 

[Xanatic*]

I don't want to get into what the Torah says, but in regards to the Old Testament, there are the questions of who Mrs Abel was or who that mark of Cain was meant to protect him from. That indicates there might have been a few more people running around.

 

[Lb8535]

This was dealt with over the years in several ST episodes of various incarnations. Inevitably the subspecies with the strongest genes for conceptual thought enslave the other subspecies "to protect them" eithr with their acquiescence or while engendering rebellion among them. This sounds like a reasonable prediction to me.