• We have updated the guidelines regarding posting political content: please see the stickied thread on Website Issues.

Richard Dawkins

May I bring to your attention the current debates about the so called emergence of 'pop-idol worship' and the current (and therefore just as valid as evolution in many respects) theories that those of the human race, sadly not as questioning or convinced of their complete and utter independence from any 'other-world' or god actually need some sort of belief to keep them sane and/or repressed?

Lack of religion is leading to the adoption of popular figures, such as David Beckham (blest be his boots) and Bri--ey Sp--rs.

Whatever you do, it seems, most people will always revert to some base desire to have 'something better' than their lot.

*I'm not saying I believe it, just being the devils advocate*
 
anome said:
Richard Dawkins is far from the foremost authority. Until his death, the foremost authority on evolutionary biology was Stephen Jay Gould. I'm not sure who it would be now, but I don't really think it's Dawkins.

Hey anome my man,

all the popular science I've read in the past few years has tended to reinforce an impression I have that Dawkins is accepted by his peers as pre-eminent in this field. His background in zoology, coupled with the fact he's diversified into genetics and archaeology mean he's got all angles covered. And he's the best populariser of scientific ideas.

You could argue that there are one or two people out there who are "better" than Dawkins on the subject of evolution, but even then you're talking about a handful of scientists and commentators who are leagues ahead of the rest, so I would submit it's wrong to say he's "far from" the foremost authority [on evolutionary biology].

Dawkins is absolutely meticulous when it comes to explaining his reasoning to his readers, and in that area he's miles better than Gould ever was. For me Gould just never communicated with his audience as well. I just read Ontogeny and Phylogeny (snappy title) on hols, and it occurred to me that Stephen Mithen covers the same ground in the space of a couple of chapters in The Prehistory of the Mind. Now, it may be that Gould didn't have to write good popular science to have been the world's best scientist (biologist to be specfiic), but all of the greats are able to get their points across with clarity and consistency in a way that Gould never where this reader is concerned.

Plus, Dawkins caught Gould tying his reasoning in knots on more than one occasion.

The Gould eulogy Dawkins features in The Devil's Chaplin shows that the pair remained in touch despite their public spats, and continued to exchange ideas and share a mutual respect right up to the former's death. Although Gould would probably have described himself as the foremost authority in these matters, I'm sure he would have acknowledged Dawkins as a close second. In which case, even Gould fans would have to concede that Dawkins has inherited the mantle.



I really enoyed Steve Jefferson's post - found myself agreeing with pretty much all his points, although I feel that no-one should ever be accorded so much respect that their views aren't open to challenge. Witness Einstein (checking him into the pot as predicted!) messing up over quantum theory. He was wrong, Bohr and the others were right.


Finally, I'd agree with Steve that Christian schooling can have a destructive influence. I went to a primary school that taught old-school creationism, and I feel it held back my scientific understanding well into my teens.
 
did anybody ever pay attention in a religious education class rather than take it as an opportunity to wind up the (not-really-a-proper) teacher? generally i found it a good way to relax between classes in 'proper' subjects. btw, i considered myself a christian at that time.
 
ted maul said:
did anybody ever pay attention in a religious education class rather than take it as an opportunity to wind up the (not-really-a-proper) teacher? generally i found it a good way to relax between classes in 'proper' subjects. btw, i considered myself a christian at that time.

at primary school, where one teacher often handles a range of subjects, our Divinity teacher was also form master, maths teacher etc, and a bloody strict one at that.

No-one would have dared screw around.

We competed to impress him with our piousness - I remember I once got a box of Smarties (statutory pat on the head prize) for a comment comparing the Hindu faith to building a TV and worshipping it (false idols you see - thoug shalt not worship them etc).

Looking back on it, I understand more clearly why we weren't allowed to browse the Bible of our own accord, but had to leave it closed in front of us until told to open it at a particular book, chapter and verse. It's because they didn't want to have to answer awkward questions about contradictions or what exactly Onan's sin was (a quick one off the wrist, in case you're wondering).

The one sensible thing I remember the teacher in question saying was that the fire-and-brimstone image of hell was just a repesentation used by the early Christians to denote a place that was terrifying because you were away from God.

But the rest of it was scary stuff. Witness the following exchange:

"But on Judgement day, what happens if my brother and Mum and Dad aren't put at the right hand of God like you say we'll be?"

"You would feel great sorrow for them, but you would understand that they had failed to hear God's call before the rapture"

"I'd tell God to leave me behind, I'd rather go to Hell with my Mum and Dad than heaven without them"

"No you wouldn't"

"Yes I would"

"Write your name on the Board and see me after class".


The year after I left for secondary school, the place was exposed as teaching hysterical speaking-in-tongues crap in after-hours classes. Two teachers were sacked for it, but the essential ethos remained.
 
ted maul said:
did anybody ever pay attention in a religious education class rather than take it as an opportunity to wind up the (not-really-a-proper) teacher? generally i found it a good way to relax between classes in 'proper' subjects. btw, i considered myself a christian at that time.

I went to a Catholic school, luckily when I was there it was ex-jesuit, and was brought up in a catholic family, went to mass every week etc...

I don't remember having the bible hammered into us but I do remember the lessons being awfuly tedious and so easy to do if you applied common-sense.

Sadly that was exactly what was missing in my class and most people failed the exam.
 
Q&A: Richard Dawkins
Richard Dawkins, BBC


Author Richard Dawkins has just topped Prospect Magazine's poll for Britain's top 100 public intellectuals.

The Charles Simonyi Professor of the Public Understanding of Science gained almost double the votes of his nearest rival.

Despite this, Prospect labelled science the "dog that didn't bark", because only three scientists appeared in the top 30.

Here Professor Dawkins tells BBC News Online why the label is not justified.

Why do you think more scientists did not feature at the top of the poll?

Are you sure it is right to say that the science dog didn't bark?

A scientist came top of the voting, and he obtained nearly twice as many votes as the next person. The mean number of votes per person in the entire list of 100 is 42.6.

Eleven scientists were eligible for votes, and the mean number of votes per scientist is 54.5, noticeably above the general average. If you count Jonathan Miller and George Monbiot as scientists (Miller trained as a doctor, Monbiot as a zoologist, and both of them use their science in what they do), the mean number of votes per scientist rises to 62.3.

I haven't done the sums for any other category of person such as journalists or philosophers, but you could, and if you did I think you'd conclude that science put up a respectable growl by comparison.

What sort of mental tool-kit do people need, to think scientifically?

The ability to dream, coupled with the ability to distinguish dreams from reality: creative imagination, coupled with a sceptical respect for the real world.

What is your opinion about how science is covered in the media? How do you think it could be improved?

Science coverage could be improved by the recognition that science is timeless, and therefore science stories should not need to be pegged to an item in the news. It could be improved by the recognition that the usefulness of science is its least important quality.

It could be improved by an understanding of the distinction between science and technology. And it could be improved if more young science graduates were employed by the media (and absolutely no graduates in "media studies").

Do you get tired of being asked about the debate between science and religion - do you think it is time to move on?

We can't move on as long as more than 50% of American voters believe the entire universe began later than the Middle Stone Age, and Tony Blair encourages such teachings in English schools on grounds of "diversity in education".

You have just written a new book, The Ancestor's Tale. What is it about?

It is a history of life going backwards through evolutionary time, in the form of a pilgrimage to the past.

We human pilgrims set off from the present, in a quest for our ancestors. As we go back to the past, we greet other pilgrims from the present, at a series of 39 discrete rendezvous points.

After each rendezvous, one or more of the newly arrived pilgrims has the opportunity to tell a Tale. True to Chaucer's example, each Tale is not about the teller but carries a more general message for life (in Chaucer's case human life, in my case evolutionary life).

The Grasshopper's Tale is about the problem of race, the Galapagos Finch's Tale is about rapid evolution on islands, the Elephant Bird's Tale is about the drifting of the continents, the Rotifer's Tale is about sex...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3935757.stm
 
He's not a convincing linguist, to judge by his sole effort in the field. It takes ALOT more than one language or several very closely related languages to prove genetic encoding for certain structural outcomes.
 
http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4676751.stm

Universe 'too queer' to grasp

Scientist Professor Richard Dawkins has opened a global conference of big thinkers warning that our Universe may be just "too queer" to understand.

Professor Dawkins, the renowned Selfish Gene author from Oxford University, said we were living in a "middle world" reality that we have created.

Experts in design, technology, and entertainment have gathered in Oxford to share their ideas about our futures.

TED (Technology, Entertainment and Design) is already a top US event.

It is the first time the event, TED Global, has been held in Europe.

Species software

Professor Dawkins' opening talk, in a session called Meme Power, explored the ways in which humans invent their own realities to make sense of the infinitely complex worlds they are in; worlds made more complex by ideas such as quantum physics which is beyond most human understanding.

"Are there things about the Universe that will be forever beyond our grasp, in principle, ungraspable in any mind, however superior?" he asked.


"Successive generations have come to terms with the increasing queerness of the Universe."

Each species, in fact, has a different "reality". They work with different "software" to make them feel comfortable, he suggested.

Because different species live in different models of the world, there was a discomfiting variety of real worlds, he suggested.


"Middle world is like the narrow range of the electromagnetic spectrum that we see," he said.

"Middle world is the narrow range of reality that we judge to be normal as opposed to the queerness that we judge to be very small or very large."

He mused that perhaps children should be given computer games to play with that familiarise them with quantum physics concepts.

"It would make an interesting experiment," he told the BBC News website.

ET worlds

Our brains had evolved to help us survive within the scale and orders of magnitude within which we exist, said Professor Dawkins.

We think that rocks and crystals are solid when in fact they were made up mostly of spaces in between atoms, he argued.

This, he said, was just the way our brains thought about things in order to help us navigate our "middle sized" world - the medium scale environment - a world in which we cannot see individual atoms.

Because we exist in such a limited section of the universe, and given its enormous scale, we cannot expect to be the only organisms within it, Professor Dawkins believes.

He concluded with the thought that if he could re-engineer his brain in any way he would make himself a genius mathematician.

He would also want to time travel to when dinosaurs roamed the Earth.

More serious focus

Developing world economist and businesswoman Jacqueline Novogratz brought Professor Dawkins' thinking into focus, arguing that we need to fully engage with "developing worlds" to move away from "them and us" thinking.

"The world is talking about global poverty and Africa in ways I have never seen in my life," she said.

"At the same time I have a fear that the victories of G8 will see that as our moral absolution. But that is chapter one; celebrate it, close it and recognise we need a chapter two - a 'how to'.

"The only way to end poverty is to build viable systems on the ground that can deliver services to the poor in ways that are sustainable," she said.

Former Afghan finance minister Ashraf Ghani added that globalisation was "on speed" and needed real private investment and opportunities to flourish.

"Events of 7/7 and 9/11 remind us that we do not live in three different worlds; we live in one world."

He criticised the West for being only concerned with design issues that affect them, and solving environmental problems for themselves.

"You are problem solvers but are not engaging in problems of corruption," he told TED Global delegates.

"You stay away from design for developments. Your designs are selfish; it is for your own immediate use.

"We need your imagination to be brought to bear on problems the way meme is supposed to. It is at the intersection of ideas that new ideas and breakthroughs occur."

More than 300 leading scientists, musicians, playwrights, as well as technology pioneers and future thinkers have gathered for the conference which runs from 12 to 15 July.

(c) bbc 05

(right place for this?)
 
If i can shamelessly namedrop [well, at least its in the right thread]. Prof. Dawkins has just moved into the office next to our lab. I saw him this morning in the corridor, but didnt hold the door open for him as he was leaving. Oh well, thats my science career scuppered.
Im really loving this thread, lots of very interesting things to think about. My 2 cents is that the difference between science and religion is that one is based on trust, and the other on faith. I trust that the greatest proportion of the links in the pyramid of science were obtained by honest people, looking for logical explanations for their data. The constant building upon earlier research ensures that mistakes are weeded out eventually. I find it easy to trust other people who have done the work.
Religion, on the other hand, is based on faith that what you are taught (by the bible/pastors/priests/imams/rabbis etc.), "feels" right. There is no compulsion to explore alternative theories for why that explanation "feels" right.
As some atheist wittier than I put it "we are all atheists, i just believe in one less god than you"
Hmm, im sure i started off with a point, but it appears to have got lost. if you see it can you email it back to me. thanks.
 
I’ve always considered Dawkins to be more of a science writer/popularizer than a scientist. I’ve only read a few of his books but the only scientific “work” of his that I can recall was a stupid apple computer program which “demonstrated” evolution using 2D stick figures. I also sensed some hypocrisy in how he could shed tears over elephant poaching, but enthusiastically approve of so-called scientists creating generation after generation of fearfully mutilated fruit flies.

I think most people accept that evolution is a scientific fact. Still unresolved however is the mechanism which drives evolution. Darwin argues that evolution is driven by random mutations, and that favourable mutations will be selected naturally because the owner(s) of the favourable mutations will be reproductively more successful. Dawkins, and many other scientists accept Darwin’s evolutionary mechanism. I think a respectable number of scientists reject Darwin’s mechanism while by no means rejecting evolution (the philosopher Sir Karl Popper maintained that “survival of the fittest” was an unprovable tautology).

In my view Dawkins exploits the fact that Darwinists are a sub-set of evolutionists. Dawkins creates an artificial argument between creationists and evolutionists, such that reasonable people are obliged to take Dawkins’ side of the argument, even though many hold no brief for Dawkins’ adamant position that Darwinism is correct and beyond criticism.
 
Still unresolved however is the mechanism which drives evolution.

Maybe I'm missing the point here...but isn't it the naturally occurring background radiation which drives it?

Radiation causes mutation, which resolves into evolution when time and environment come into play.
 
I always got the impression that the driving force was abstract. Just about the tendency of a pattern of molecules to repeat itself for no other reason than that a pattern that can repeat itself has occured.

Re radiation, it increases the mutation rate by damaging the DNA strands, but IIRC there are errors that would happen anyway during the transcription process from time to time. So without radiation, mutation and evolution would still happen, but more slowly.
 
Most mutations are unsuccesful - however, this is a bit of conundrum as some mutations that are damaging to the host organism survive as recessives.
I don't know if there is an actual mechanism that drives evolution - the idea of an abstraction seems reasonable - however, the key word is the ability to adapt, not just as an individual but as a species (unless there is a particulary virile male who has survived).
BTW - great thread
 
more Gerin oil

Opiate of the masses

It is a highly addictive drug, but governments everywhere encourage its use
by Richard Dawkins

Gerin oil (or Geriniol to give it its scientific name) is a powerful drug which acts directly on the central nervous system to produce a range of characteristic symptoms, often of an antisocial or self- damaging nature. If administered chronically in childhood, Gerin oil can permanently modify the brain to produce adult disorders, including dangerous delusions which have proved very hard to treat. The four doomed flights of 11th September were, in a very real sense, Gerin oil trips: all 19 of the hijackers were high on the drug at the time. Historically, Geriniol intoxication was responsible for atrocities such as the Salem witch hunts and the massacres of native South Americans by conquistadores. Gerin oil fuelled most of the wars of the European middle ages and, in more recent times, the carnage that attended the partitioning of the Indian subcontinent and, on a smaller scale, Ireland.

Gerin oil addiction can drive previously sane individuals to run away from a normally fulfilled human life and retreat to closed communities from which all but confirmed addicts are excluded. These communities are nearly always limited to one sex, and they vigorously, often obsessively, forbid sexual activity. Indeed, a tendency towards agonised sexual prohibition emerges as a drably recurring theme amid all the colourful variations of Gerin oil symptomatology. Gerin oil does not seem to reduce the libido per se, but it frequently leads to a prurient desire to interfere with, and preferably reduce, the sexual pleasure of others. A current example is the horror with which Gerin oil users view homosexuality, even when expressed in long-term loving relationships.

Gerin oil in strong doses can be hallucinogenic. Hardcore mainliners may hear voices in their heads, or see illusions which seem to the sufferers so real that they often succeed in persuading others of their reality. An individual who reports high-grade hallucinogenic experiences may be venerated, and even followed as some kind of leader, by others who regard themselves as less fortunate. Such following-pathology can long postdate the leader's death, and may expand into bizarre psychedelia such as the cannibalistic fantasy of "drinking the blood and eating the flesh" of the leader.

Strong doses of Geriniol can also lead to "bad trips," in which the user can suffer morbid delusions and fears, notably fears of being tortured, not in the real world but in a postmortem fantasy world. Bad trips of this kind are bound up with a punishment culture which is as characteristic of this drug as the obsessive fear of sexuality already noted. The punishment culture fostered by Gerin oil culminates in the sinister drug-induced fantasy of "allo-punishment"—the belief that individuals can and should be punished for the wrongdoings of others (known on the in-group grapevine as "redemption").

Medium doses of Gerin oil, though not in themselves dangerous, can distort perceptions of reality. Beliefs that have no basis in fact are immunised, by the drug's own direct effects on the nervous system, against evidence from the real world. Oil-heads can be heard talking to thin air or muttering to themselves, apparently in the belief that private wishes so expressed will come true, even at the cost of mild violation of the laws of physics. This autolocutory disorder is often accompanied by weird tics, hand gestures or other stereotypies, for example rhythmic head-nodding towards a wall.

As with many drugs, refined Gerin oil in low doses is largely harmless, and can even serve as a social lubricant on occasions such as marriages, funerals and ceremonies of state. Experts differ over whether such social use, though harmless in itself, is a risk factor for upgrading to harder and more addictive forms of the drug.

Gerin oil acts synergistically with sleep deprivation, self-mutilation and starvation. Addicts have been known to fast, whip their own backs, or perform other painful "penances" as means of enhancing the drug's potency. Mutilation is not limited to users themselves. Various Gerin oil-based sub-cultures ritually injure their own children, especially when they are too young to resist. These mutilations usually involve the genitals.

You might think that such a potentially dangerous and addictive drug would top the list of proscribed substances, with exemplary sentences handed out for trafficking in it. But no, it is readily obtainable anywhere in the world and you don't even need a prescription. Professional pushers are numerous, and organised in hierarchical cartels, openly trading on street corners and even in purpose-made buildings. Some of these cartels are adept at parting clients from their money. Their "godfathers" occupy influential positions in high places, and they have the ear of presidents and prime ministers. Governments don't just turn a blind eye to the trade, they grant it tax-exempt status. Worse, they subsidise schools with the specific intention of getting children hooked.

I was prompted to write this article by the smiling face of a very happy man in Bali (see picture). He was ecstatically greeting the news that he was to be executed by firing squad for the brutal murder of large numbers of innocent holidaymakers whom he had never met. Some people in the court were shocked at his lack of remorse. But far from remorseful, his mood was one of obvious exhilaration. He punched the air, delirious with joy that he was to be "martyred," to use the jargon of his particular sub-culture of Gerin oil substance-abusers. For, make no mistake about it, this beatific smile, looking forward with unalloyed pleasure to the firing squad, is the smile of a junkie. Here we have the archetypal mainliner, doped up with hard, unrefined, unadulterated, high-octane Gerin oil.

It is easy to regard such people as evil criminals, from whom the rest of us need protection. Indeed, we do need protecting from them. But the problem would not arise in the first place if children were protected from becoming hooked on a drug with such a bad prognosis for their adult minds.

Source

(Big link tidied up - stu)
 
GadaffiDuck said:
Most mutations are unsuccesful - however, this is a bit of conundrum as some mutations that are damaging to the host organism survive as recessives.
I don't know if there is an actual mechanism that drives evolution - the idea of an abstraction seems reasonable - however, the key word is the ability to adapt, not just as an individual but as a species (unless there is a particulary virile male who has survived).
BTW - great thread

It's probably worth distiguishing from the popular use of the word "mutation" meaning to change and its specific use by Dawkins. He has said on a prog that mutations are (I'm probably paraphrasing from a distant memory TV ) abberations. It isn't mutations that drive this adaptation. Because mutations are "one offs" or outside the mainstream they are unsuccessful and can't establish themselves as part of the mainstream and so don't contribute to evolution..
-
 
It's all in the genes
The Sunday Times Oxford Literary Festival starts on Friday, March 24. Previewing events at the festival, Richard Dawkins looks back at the extraordinary 30-year history of his first book, The Selfish Gene


It is sobering to realise that I have lived nearly half my life with The Selfish Gene — for better, for worse. Over the years, as each subsequent book has appeared, publishers have sent me on tour to promote it. Audiences respond to the new book with gratifying enthusiasm, applaud politely and ask intelligent questions. Then they line up to buy, and have me sign . . . The Selfish Gene. That is a bit of an exaggeration. Some do buy the new book and, for the rest, my wife consoles me by arguing that people who newly discover an author will naturally tend to go back to his first book: having read The Selfish Gene, surely they’ll work their way through to the latest and (to its fond parent) favourite baby?

I would mind more if I could claim that The Selfish Gene had become severely outmoded and superseded. Unfortunately (from one point of view) I cannot. Details have changed and factual examples burgeoned mightily. But there is little in it that I would rush to unwrite now, or apologise for. Arthur Cain, late professor of zoology at Liverpool and one of my inspiring tutors at Oxford in the 1960s, described The Selfish Gene in 1976 as a “young man’s book”. He was deliberately quoting a commentator on
AJ Ayer’s Language, Truth and Logic. I was flattered by the comparison, although I knew that Ayer had recanted much of his first book and I could hardly miss Cain’s pointed implication that I should, in the fullness of time, do the same.

Let me begin with some second thoughts about the title. In 1975, I showed the partially completed book to Tom Maschler, doyen of London publishers, and we discussed it in his room at Jonathan Cape. He liked the book but not the title. “Selfish”, he said, was a “down” word. Why not call it The Immortal Gene? Immortal was an “up” word, the immortality of genetic information was a central theme of the book, and “immortal gene” had almost the same intriguing ring as “selfish gene” (neither of us, I think, noticed the resonance with Oscar Wilde’s The Selfish Giant). I now think Maschler may have been right. Many critics, especially vociferous ones learned in philosophy as I have discovered, prefer to read a book by title only. No doubt this works well enough for The Tale of Benjamin Bunny or The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, but I can readily see that The Selfish Gene, without the large footnote of the book itself, might give an inadequate impression of its contents. Nowadays, an American publisher would in any case have insisted on a subtitle.

The best way to explain the title is by locating the emphasis. Emphasise “selfish” and you will think the book is about selfishness, whereas, if anything, it devotes more attention to altruism. The correct word of the title to stress is “gene”, and let me explain why. A central debate within Darwinism concerns the unit that is actually selected: what kind of entity is it that survives, or does not survive, as a consequence of natural selection? That unit will become, more or less by definition, “selfish”. Altruism might well be favoured at other levels. Does natural selection choose between species? If so, we might expect individual organisms to behave altruistically “for the good of the species”. They might limit their birth rates to avoid overpopulation, or restrain their hunting behaviour to conserve the species’ future stocks of prey. It was such widely disseminated misunderstandings of Darwinism that originally provoked me to write the book.

Or does natural selection, as I urge instead, choose between genes? In this case, we should not be surprised to find individual organisms behaving altruistically “for the good of the genes”, for example by feeding and protecting kin who are likely to share copies of the same genes. Such kin altruism is only one way in which gene selfishness can translate itself into individual altruism. The Selfish Gene explains how it works, together with reciprocation, Darwinian theory’s other main generator of altruism.

Unwriting a book is one thing. Unreading it is something else. What are we to make of the following verdict, from a reader in Australia? “Fascinating, but at times I wish I could unread it . . . On one level, I can share in the sense of wonder Dawkins so evidently sees in the workings-out of such complex processes . . . But at the same time, I largely blame The Selfish Gene for a series of bouts of depression I suffered from for more than a decade . . . Never sure of my spiritual outlook on life, but trying to find something deeper — trying to believe, but not quite being able to — I found that this book just about blew away any vague ideas I had along these lines, and prevented them from coalescing any further. This created quite a strong personal crisis for me some years ago.”

I have previously described similar responses from readers. A teacher reproachfully wrote that a pupil had come to him in tears after reading the same book, because it had persuaded her that life was empty and purposeless. But if something is true, no amount of wishful thinking can undo it. As I went on to write, “Presumably there is indeed no purpose in the ultimate fate of the cosmos, but do any of us really tie our life’s hopes to the ultimate fate of the cosmos anyway? Of course we don’t; not if we are sane. Our lives are ruled by all sorts of closer, warmer, human ambitions and perceptions. To accuse science of robbing life of the warmth that makes it worth living is so preposterously mistaken, so diametrically opposite to my own feelings and those of most working scientists, I am almost driven to the despair of which I am wrongly suspected.”

Another good alternative title would have been The Cooperative Gene. It sounds paradoxically opposite, but a central part of the book argues for a form of cooperation among self-interested genes. This emphatically does not mean that groups of genes prosper at the expense of their members, or at the expense of other groups. Rather, each gene is seen as pursuing its own self-interested agenda against the background of the other genes in the gene pool — the set of candidates for sexual shuffling within a species. Those other genes are part of the environment in which each gene survives, in the same way as the weather, predators and prey, supporting vegetation and soil bacteria are parts of the environment. From each gene’s point of view, the “background” genes are those with which it shares bodies in its journey down the generations. In the short term, that means the other members of the genome. In the long term, it means the other genes in the gene pool of the species. Natural selection therefore sees to it that gangs of mutually compatible — which is almost to say cooperating — genes are favoured in the presence of each other. At no time does this evolution of the “cooperative gene” violate the fundamental principle of the selfish gene.

This is an edited extract of the foreword to the 30th-anniversary edition of The Selfish Gene (OUP). It and all titles in the rest of the section are available at Sunday Times Books First prices on 0870 165 8585

THE OXFORD LITERARY FESTIVAL

Richard Dawkins will discuss The Selfish Gene and its impact at the Sunday Times Oxford Literary Festival on Wednesday, March 29 at 2.30pm

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0, ... 34,00.html
 
On the other hand, you may prefer this (from a Christian books site):
Dawkins' God
Alister McGrath PhD
Code number 0016
Customer Rating :
Price : £ 9.99 (USD $ 16.98 apx.)

Alister E. McGrath is uniquely qualified to write this devastating and stunning rebuttal of the Oxford based atheist Professor Richard Dawkins. McGrath, also a Professor at Oxford, is not only one of the world’s leading theologians but also has a PhD in molecular biophysics. Dawkins' recent Channel 4 documentary 'Can You Believe It?' confirmed how little he understands about the meaning of faith and the contents of the Bible. This fascinating and thought provoking work by McGrath is the first book-length response to the ideas Dawkins promotes in films, articles and books such as The Blind Watchmaker and the Selfish Gene.

Addresses fundamental questions about Dawkins’ approach to science and religion: Is the gene actually selfish? Is the blind watchmaker a suitable analogy? Are there other ways of looking at things?
Tackles Dawkins’ hostile and controversial views on religion, and examines the religious implications of his scientific ideas, making for a fascinating and provoking debate

Written in a very engaging and accessible style, ideal to those approaching scientific and religious issues for the first time
Contains a thrilling chapter uncovering the hollow nature of Dawkins' unscientific 'meme' theory.

"Wielding evolutionary arguments and carefully chosen metaphors like sharp swords, Richard Dawkins has emerged over three decades as this generation's most aggressive promoter of atheism. In his view, science, and science alone, provides the only rock worth standing on. In this remarkable book, Alister McGrath challenges Dawkins on the very ground he holds most sacred - rational argument - and McGrath disarms the master. It becomes readily apparent that Dawkins has aimed his attack at a naive version of faith that most serious believers would not recognize. After reading this carefully constructed and eloquently written book, Dawkins' choice of atheism emerges as the most irrational of the available choices about God's existence." Francis Collins, Director of the Human Genome Project

“In this tour-de-force Alister McGrath approaches the edifice of self-confident, breezy atheism so effectively promoted by Richard Dawkins, and by deft dissection and argument reveals the shallowness, special-pleading and inconsistencies of his world-picture. Here is a book which helps to rejoin the magnificence of science to the magnificence of God’s good Creation.” Simon Conway Morris, Professor of Evolutionary Palaeobiology, Cambridge University

“This is a wonderful book. One of the world’s leading Christian contributors to the science/religion dialogue takes on Richard Dawkins, Darwinism’s arch-atheist, and wrestles him to the ground! This is scholarship as it should be – informed, feisty, and terrific fun. I cannot wait to see Dawkins’s review of Alister McGrath’s critique.” Michael Ruse, Lucyle T. Werkmeister Professor of Philosophy, Florida State University

“A timely and accessible contribution to the debate over Richard Dawkins’s cosmology which exposes philosophical naivety, the abuse of metaphor, and sheer bluster, left, right and centre. Here Alister McGrath announces what every Darwinian Fundamentalist needs to hear: that science is and always has been a cultural practice that is provisional, fallible, and socially shaped – an enterprise to be cultivated and fostered, but hardly worshipped or idolised. A devastating critique.” David N. Livingstone, Professor of Geography and Intellectual History, Queen’s University, Belfast

208 pages. 15 illustrations. Paperback

Web price - Only £7.99 (RRP £9.99)
http://www.penfoldbooks.com/product/19/695
 
The book may well be good but the tone of those reviews is overly sneering. It mitigation Dawkins himself can come across rather badly...
 
Agreed - he's not a tremendous communicator, and comes over rather brusque and fussy, and not a little defensive in interviews.

He was interviewed on R4's Today a few weeks ago regarding the moves towards Creationism in US education, and Dawkins sounded exactly like Michael Foot - undoubtedly intelligent and sincere, but with an slight undertone of "Why am I wasting my time talking to you?"
 
I have to say i like his style, he is obviously a man who does not suffer fools or foolish ideas gladly. He makes no attempt to sugar coat his ideas and theorys, he gives you his facts (and leaves you to make up your own mind) based on his work and previous centuries of sound scientific theory and experimentation, something which could not be said of the creationists and ID'ers.
I'm sick and tired of the softly, softly approach that is taken with the creationists, it seems to be symptomatic of modern life to moderate your ideas and speech so as not to offend anyone. And it can be plainly seen that ignoring the creationists does not make them go away. They must be challenged at every possible opportunity. I know his style grates with many people but love him or hate him you certainly cannot ignore Mr Dawkins when he speaks about his subject.
 
The again the Christian Right/Creationist lobby tend to have more of a voice right now because of the current US political leadership. This has given them the oxygen of publicity to a certain extent. But in real terms they haven't won all that much, have lost out in court, and in general will probably fade back into the woodwork should US politics shift back to the centre (as it tends to do, after a swing to the right).

Challenge their ideas, yes - but don't be too quick to credit them with more than they actually have.
 
Challenge their ideas, yes - but don't be too quick to credit them with more than they actually have.

I don't think anyone credits them with anything even resembling a coherent idea or theory. Anyone who seems to believe this stuff is a part of a certain section of society and only believe it based on faith. I certainly don't subscribe to giving these people much airtime to forward their beliefs.
 
In this remarkable book, Alister McGrath challenges Dawkins on the very ground he holds most sacred - rational argument - and McGrath disarms the master.

One of the world’s leading Christian contributors to the science/religion dialogue takes on Richard Dawkins, Darwinism’s arch-atheist, and wrestles him to the ground!

Strange, this violent imagery used by these 'goodly, kind-spirited' Christians when it comes to having their particular brand of faith challenged, ain't it?

As usual, the believers show themselves up as the worst advertisment for religion going.
 
barfing_pumpkin said:
Strange, this violent imagery used by these 'goodly, kind-spirited' Christians when it comes to having their particular brand of faith challenged, ain't it?.




I agree that the imagery used in the review is quite violent and perhaps more suited to the land of Milton, Dante and Blake but it serves an artistic purpose.

If you take some time and look very closely at the review can you see the sign saying - 'This is endorsed entirely by the entire Christian Faith and is what we belive in.' No? Neither can I.

That is because it isn't there. What we are looking at here isn't the latest theological treatise hot from the brothers at Monkworx or the latest Papal Bull, but rather the oppinion of a reviewer with the aim to sell as many books as possible.

barfing_pumpkin said:
As usual, the believers show themselves up as the worst advertisment for religion going.

I find your second point quite hurtful as a 'believer'.
You seem to be under the impression that as soon as you have some sort of belief you become a mindless drone doped up on dogma and stifled by scripture.

It is as usual for a 'believer' to write something like this as it is a 'non-believer'. Of couse, writing a stinging review about one book being better than another is obviously the 'worst advertisment' for religion. Because after all, religion is based on book reviews.
 
barfing_pumpkin wrote:
As usual, the believers show themselves up as the worst advertisment for religion going.


I find your second point quite hurtful as a 'believer'.
You seem to be under the impression that as soon as you have some sort of belief you become a mindless drone doped up on dogma and stifled by scripture.

It is as usual for a 'believer' to write something like this as it is a 'non-believer'. Of couse, writing a stinging review about one book being better than another is obviously the 'worst advertisment' for religion. Because after all, religion is based on book reviews.

You've misunderstood me. The point was made to illustrate the hypocrisy inherent in a bunch of believers (who are Christian, judging by the subtext) who supposedly subscribe to a belief system based (among other things) on pacifism and benevolence, yet who - for some reason - are also very happy to use violent (and weirdly homoerotic) terms when it comes to someone who is quite vocal about his disbelief. As for your statement: 'You seem to be under the impression that as soon as you have some sort of belief you become a mindless drone doped up on dogma and stifled by scripture' - absolutely not true...

I'm perfectly prepared to accept that there are plenty of believers in the world who would not consider themselves mindless drones at all. Rather than being 'stifled' by scripture, it seems to stimulate their petty prejudices no end.
 
Can anyone recommend a good book by Dawkins? I know alot of people have said they like all his work but is there one that stands out from the others? Always looking for extra reading material.
 
I seem to remember The Blind Watchmaker being particularly colourful, IIRC lots of interesting examples and cool info about animal species being used to illustrate his points - the part on bats hearing/echolocation really sticks in my mind, it's much much cleverer than you'd think.

It's also quite a good read in that it was written specifically to counter creationist arguments of the day, which are debunked in terms that you don't need a science degree to understand. Think Dawkins maybe rubs it in a bit though when he starts quoting bible passages that just happen to support his theories!
 
Back
Top