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Richard Dawkins

ghostdog19 said:
As Rynner says, these things cut both ways, and I'm inclined to agree. But if that's the case, aren't the likes of Dawkins as bad as those they oppose? Therefor, isn't the accusation of Dogma justified in that case?
dog·ma
1. a system of principles or tenets, as of a church.
2. a specific tenet or doctrine authoritatively laid down, as by a church: the dogma of the Assumption.
3. prescribed doctrine: political dogma.
4. a settled or established opinion, belief, or principle.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Origin: 1590–1600; < L < Gk, equiv. to dok(eǐn) to seem, think, seem good + -ma n. suffix]
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/dogma

only in sense 4. could Dawkins be called dogmatic.

but basically, he just expounds and defends scientific theories, which are generally established on the basis of careful and repeated observation or experiment, and he's willing to admit that contemporary science has limits, and that there may be some things we will never understand.

but his 'dogma' differs from religious dogma in that the former could be proved in a court of law, unlike the latter, which largely consists of untestable assertions.
(which again harks back to TMOTCO:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clapham_omnibus 8) )

this can be illustrated by the fact that you can be a Christian without believing in a lot of the dogma, such as virgin birth, Transubstantiation, etc.
(I know - I was that christian - once! ;) )
 
rynner said:
only in sense 4. could Dawkins be called dogmatic.
Perhaps he should be referred to as Dogmatic: Sense 4. Only joking.
rynner said:
but his 'dogma' differs from religious dogma in that the former could be proved in a court of law, unlike the latter, which largely consists of untestable assertions.
The existence of God was contested in a court of law as I recall. Or was that just a Billy Conoly film?
rynner said:
(which again harks back to TMOTCO: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clapham_omnibus 8) )
I think, however, Dawkins is guilty of preaching to the 'unreasonable man', by speaking in soundbites (though some may see it as tongues ;) ), in an all too similar manner to clergy who preach to the converted and making claims that are so messy they wouldn't stand in a 'libel' case if it were in court. A lot of hot air.

Thanks for the link to that. It's the second time I've seen someone refer to the Clapham omnibus on these boards and had wondered who this magnificent fellow was. :D I believe in the gentleman on the Clapham Omnibus, and I believe his name is Philip Pullman, rather than Richard Dawkins.
 
/edit/ apologies, this is in reply to rynner

The only problem with materialism, which is the philosophy that holds science and courts of law and dictionary definitions and so on as being ways of discerning reality, is that it can be considered, essentially, just another monist ontology (ontology is a great word with no easy definition ... erm philosophy of the nature of existance maybe?). In substance theory, as I mentioned above, a monist ontology holds that there is only one substance, in this case matter.

In this way scientific-materialist-rationalism (which is my personal prefered reality model, incidentally) or whatever you want to call the atheist concensus 'belief' is as unprovable objectively as any other.

Looked at in this way, Dawkins and other atheists appear as dogmatic to those who espouse other belief systems as vice versa. When they insist they can back up their beliefs with experimental data and logical deductions they are employing the tools of their own system, just as a religious person (often espousing an idealist monist ontology i.e. 'all is spirit'), for example, employs their scripture or personal experience of god to back up their point.

Essentially, in philosophical terms it's a stalemate, you just have to decide which side you're on, if any, there's no way of ultimately discovering the absolute truth of the matter.

Metaphysics is great, ain't it?
 
_Lizard23_ said:
In substance theory, as I mentioned above, a monist ontology holds that there is only one substance, in this case matter.
the basic idea in modern physics is energy - matter is just a particular manifestation of energy (m = E / c^2, to rewrite Einstein's famous equation.)

energy is perhaps not far removed from spirit (although it is better defined!)

I'd like to think that one day spirit will be understood as a form of energy (or vice-versa), and be incorporated into a much wider and fuller science, while the unprovable dogmas drop away like dead leaves.
 
ghostdog19 said:
rynner said:
but if people want to believe stuff that most of the men on the clapham omnibus today would regard as ridiculous, then they should be free to dispute it.
ridiculed you mean? Be called names and be called disillusioned? Be told to 'wake up and smell the coffee'?

I'm not keen on name calling but why shouldn't their views be ridiculed or called "disillusioned" ? They are ridiculous!

-
 
rynner said:
I'd like to think that one day spirit will be understood as a form of energy (or vice-versa), and be incorporated into a much wider and fuller science, while the unprovable dogmas drop away like dead leaves.
A by-product of science isn't it? To grind down myths and legends (as I see it). As man's understanding grows, his gods diminish as it were until eventually man becomes like the gods he aspired to be and creates new worlds etc.
 
The term god botherer is in my view a reasonable description with only a mild element of derision.
If you accept the existence of a god of great power and might surely the constant bleating and praying from all the people of all the worlds over all the time must be an irksome bother for this "god" even the worship, in all its forms, must distract "god" from doing what she wanted to be doing, unless you think that this being of infinite power is so shallow and vain that she wants the constant praise of, lets be honest, pretty lowly pathetic life forms, I don't accept the shallow vain "god" theory, so imo that leaves bothering, if "god" exists we are obviously of such little consequence to her so just live and let live give "god" a break and stop the bothering.
 
But most mainstream christianity preaches of an involved God who, although being all-powerful, is also all-good and all-caring and therefore listens willingly to humanities petitions. Christians are taught that God does not get bothered by humanities pleas as she is all-tolerant.

Whether God acts on those petitions is another matter entirely - which I do not want to bring into this particular debate as it iss often too frought up in individual interpretations.
 
rjmrjmrjm said:
But most mainstream christianity preaches of an involved God who, although being all-powerful, is also all-good and all-caring and therefore listens willingly to humanities petitions. Christians are taught that God does not get bothered by humanities pleas as she is all-tolerant.

Whether God acts on those petitions is another matter entirely - which I do not want to bring into this particular debate as it iss often too frought up in individual interpretations.

While they may preach it, how rational an idea\is it? Even from their perspective surely they should no better.

If a God has an entire Universe (or Univers) to run then is he really going to answers Seans prayers on little Planet Earth? Would it really worry him if Sean was shagging Seamus rather than Siobhan?

If there really is a God is it likely that s/he woukld have the mentality of a paranoid/schizophrenic?
 
ramonmercado said:
While they may preach it, how rational an idea\is it? Even from their perspective surely they should no better.


I was not discussing the rationality of the subject, I was explaining why in my opinion the term 'God Botherer' is not only offensive but also an incorrect understanding with regards to the teaching of mainstream christianity.

ramonmercado said:
If a God has an entire Universe (or Univers) to run then is he really going to answers Seans prayers on little Planet Earth?

You have fallen for the trap of trying to think about God in human terms. God is said to be omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient, and all-benevolent. Running the universe to God and answering little Seans prayers at the same time would be as easy for God as breathing and thinking is for a human. Perhaps even more fundamental than that.

ramonmercado said:
Would it really worry him if Sean was shagging Seamus rather than Siobhan?

I think you are confusing yourself with what we are talking about. Since least _Lizard23_'s post this topic has focused on the mechanics of God/Spirit/Power. Theophysics if you like.

With the above quotation you are bringing in a topic that has little to do with the nature of God and more to do with the nature of human interpretation. May I just point out that many Christians believe that God wouldn't give a fuck if Sean was shagging Seamus or any other Celtic-chappy or chapette that you care to mention. Belief in God - a Christian God - does not mean you have to be anti-gay.
 
think you are confusing yourself with what we are talking about. Since least _Lizard23_'s post this topic has focused on the mechanics of God/Spirit/Power. Theophysics if you like.

With the above quotation you are bringing in a topic that has little to do with the nature of God and more to do with the nature of human interpretation.

With the above quotation you are bringing in a topic that has little to do with the nature of God and more to do with the nature of human interpretation.

on the contrary the nature of "GOD" has EVERYTHING to do with human interpretation because as an invented entity it can only be related in human terms .- it's impossible to conceive otherwise.

This "it's all part of God's Plan who moves in mysterious ways" is all part of the Christian Theist cop out, no matter how irrational or inconsistent the argument is..
 
rjmrjmrjm said:
But most mainstream christianity preaches of an involved God who, although being all-powerful, is also all-good and all-caring and therefore listens willingly to humanities petitions. Christians are taught that God does not get bothered by humanities pleas as she is all-tolerant.

Whether God acts on those petitions is another matter entirely - which I do not want to bring into this particular debate as it iss often too frought up in individual interpretations.

I think you're confusing God with Tony Blair. Please don't - this is Tony's job.
 
JUst to say to rjm that I think Rrose has largely dealt with his points, religions are invented by humans so of course its correct to critique them in those terms.

I also accept that many christians are supportive of LGBT rights. The problem is with the eStablishments. The RCC as an Establishment is anti LGBT, Islamic (in sofar is there are) Establishments are Anti LGBT. The CoE, CoI, & Anglican Establishments in US, Canada, New Zealand, Australia, South Africa are welcoming to LGBTs. Other Anglican Establishments are not.
 
YouTube: Does Richard Dawkins Exist?

Comedy exploration of Prof. Dawkins arguments in "The God Delusion"

6 minutes. Requires evil Flash player plugin. Lampoons Dawkins' arguments from "The God Delusion". Amusing if you dislike both religion and Dawkins.

...each book is a simple rearrangement of only 26 letters. Even a child should be able to see that with a little random shuffling of vowels and consonants on a computer one can arrive at all sorts of patterns like that. Working out how each letter got into the position that it did is the business of science. Claiming that Dawkins did it puts an end to an enquiry that promises to give a full and satisfying explanation of how these books came to be, without the need for invoking a discredited, superstitious "Dawkins of the Gap" type hypothesis ...

Related Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QERyh9YYEis

As he is opposed to gambling, Dawkins does not play dice with the Universe. He does however have a sense of humour. I am sure he will appreciate this.

But, if I am wrong and he isues a Fatwa then it will be necessary for me, as his loyal disciple, to hunt down the producers of this item.

:twisted:
 
Of course, irritated theologians will protest that we don't take the book of Genesis literally any more. But that is my whole point! We pick and choose which bits of scripture to believe, which bits to write off as symbols or allegories.

This is an interesting discussion. But I get the feeling that Dawkins might point his arrows at more human activities that just "pick and choose" without being based on rational facts. What about:

- (modern) art - why is one artwork more important than another?
- (modern technology) - why is Apple better than Windows ?
- (modern mathematics) - why should one approach to solving the Riemann hypothesis be better than another?

There is a lot of arbitrariness in all of these. But also there is an established train of thought and tradition that explains why things are seen as they are. And it may be arbitrary, but a lot of honest effort went into it. And we call it: "culture" or "civilization".

And theology falls in that same style of cultural activity, it's what makes us human.

But I'm heavily prejudiced against Dawkins, because his biology may be sound, he still feels like a nasty asshole to me as a person. I don't think he has much sense of humor - which is a cardinal sin! My prejudices are supported by interviews with Dutch biologists who met Dawkins personally. Not many of those found him a likeable person.
 
But I'm heavily prejudiced against Dawkins, because his biology may be sound, he still feels like a nasty asshole to me as a person. I don't think he has much sense of humor - which is a cardinal sin! My prejudices are supported by interviews with Dutch biologists who met Dawkins personally. Not many of those found him a likeable person.

A lot of folks I know of (especially science teachers) think Dawkins (and others of his ilk) have done a lot of damage to science. Consensus - he's an arse.
 
lupinwick said:
But I'm heavily prejudiced against Dawkins, because his biology may be sound, he still feels like a nasty asshole to me as a person. I don't think he has much sense of humor - which is a cardinal sin! My prejudices are supported by interviews with Dutch biologists who met Dawkins personally. Not many of those found him a likeable person.

A lot of folks I know of (especially science teachers) think Dawkins (and others of his ilk) have done a lot of damage to science. Consensus - he's an arse.

I know a lot of scientifically minded people who would disagree with you. Look at this booksales its not just those who hate him who buy his books.
He has a sense of humour, if you read his books thats immediately obvious. He can be a bit too arrogant at times though. His "teapot around Uranus" argument was originally directed at agnostics like me who were not pure enough. :)
 
lupinwick said:
But I'm heavily prejudiced against Dawkins, because his biology may be sound, he still feels like a nasty asshole to me as a person. I don't think he has much sense of humor - which is a cardinal sin! My prejudices are supported by interviews with Dutch biologists who met Dawkins personally. Not many of those found him a likeable person.

A lot of folks I know of (especially science teachers) think Dawkins (and others of his ilk) have done a lot of damage to science. Consensus - he's an arse.
I can't stand the guy. He's his own kind of fanatic, an Atheist fundamentalist and a rampant self publicist. But, it's about time someone stood up to the microphone and called out organised religion for the tosh it is.

Plus, his scientific stuff, upon which his professional reputation rests, about evolution being driven strictly by and for the genes themselves, as well as about cultural memes, may be rather suspect and involve entering topsy turvy world, but at least it ought to make people think about stuff like the nature of Reality, consciousness, 'common sense', etc. Things that we normally take for granted, like the fish that swim in the sea without thinking about the medium they swim through.

That's also no bad thing.
 
Susan Blackmore has written more extensively on memes. Her book: The Meme Machine is thought provoking but I cannot accept her cnclusions in the final chapter which questions the extent to which we have consciousness.

Just as I dont think we are biological robots, but I dont believe that Dawkins has ever argued this. Its a misreading or a not reading of his work.
 
Pietro_Mercurios said:
Plus, his scientific stuff, upon which his professional reputation rests, about evolution being driven strictly by and for the genes themselves, as well as about cultural memes, may be rather suspect and involve entering topsy turvy world, but at least it ought to make people think about stuff like the nature of Reality, consciousness, 'common sense', etc.
His frustration, I believe, only serves to undermine him, hence why he resorts to soundbiting religion on the arse all the time. His MEME theory on the other hand is excellent, and I agree with your point about topsy turvy but at least making people think.

Would be interested to know "why" certain folks would think he's done a lot of damage to science. Personally, I can't see how. Are his views that damaging to Religion for that matter? Are people converting to atheism (or Dawkins) in their droves?
 
In answer to my own question:
Faith

Britain's new cultural divide is not between Christian and Muslim, Hindu and Jew. It is between those who have faith and those who do not. Stuart Jeffries reports on the vicious and uncompromising battle between believers and non-believers

Monday February 26, 2007
The Guardian

The American journalist HL Mencken once wrote: "We must accept the other fellow's religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart." In Britain today, such wry tolerance is diminishing. Today, it's the religious on one side, and the secular on the other. Britain is dividing into intolerant camps who revel in expressing contempt for each other's most dearly held beliefs.

Article continues
"We are witnessing a social phenomenon that is about fundamentalism," says Colin Slee, the Dean of Southwark. "Atheists like the Richard Dawkins of this world are just as fundamentalist as the people setting off bombs on the tube, the hardline settlers on the West Bank and the anti-gay bigots of the Church of England. Most of them would regard each other as destined to fry in hell.

"You have a triangle with fundamentalist secularists in one corner, fundamentalist faith people in another, and then the intelligent, thinking liberals of Anglicanism, Roman Catholicism, baptism, methodism, other faiths - and, indeed, thinking atheists - in the other corner. " says Slee. Why does he think the other two groups are so vociferous? "When there was a cold war, we knew who the enemy was. Now it could be anybody. From this feeling of vulnerability comes hysteria."

"We live together but we don't know each other," says Tariq Ramadan, the Muslim scholar and senior research fellow at St Antony's College, Oxford. "And this is something not just true of secularists, but of people of faith. I moved to Britain shortly after the July 7 2005 bombings in London and since then things have changed radically. Everyone treats the perceived 'other' as a threat."

Or so one might be forgiven for thinking if one listens to the most vocal of dogmatic believers and non-believers.

For example, Richard Dawkins, the British scientist and chair for the public understanding of science at Oxford University, whose perhaps timely insistence on the hideousness of the other fellow's wife and fatuousness of his offspring made his book, The God Delusion, sell 180,000 in hardback - a figure that rivals sales of Jordan's memoirs, thus demonstrating what an appetite there is for unapologetically militant atheism. This is the man so voguishly intemperate that when speaking to the Times recently about Nadia Eweida, the British Airways worker whose employer refused to allow her to wear a Christian cross openly to work, said: "I saw a picture of this woman. She had one of the most stupid faces I've ever seen."

Before The God Delusion was published, Dawkins wrote about something called Gerin oil that was poisoning human society. "Gerin oil (or Geriniol, to give it its scientific name) is a powerful drug that acts directly on the central nervous system to produce a range of characteristic symptoms, often of an antisocial or self-damaging nature. If administered chronically in childhood, Gerin oil can permanently modify the brain to produce adult disorders, including dangerous delusions that have proved very hard to treat. The four doomed flights of September 11 were, in a very real sense, Gerin oil trips: all 19 of the hijackers were high on the drug at the time." Gerin oil, of course, was an anagram of religion. His bestseller charged that God was a "psychotic delinquent", invented by mad, deluded people.

The backlash against Dawkins' abusiveness, as well as his arguments, has started. Oxford theologian Alister McGrath has just published The Dawkins Delusion?. He argues: "We need to treat those who disagree with us with intellectual respect, rather than dismissing them - as Dawkins does - as liars, knaves and charlatans. Many atheists have been disturbed by Dawkins' crude stereotypes and seemingly pathological hostility towards religion. In fact, The God Delusion might turn out to be a monumental own goal - persuading people that atheism is just as intolerant as the worst that religion can offer."

It is worth noting that The God Delusion included an appendix entitled "a partial list of addresses, for individuals needing support in escaping from religion". In this Dawkins offers a similar service to the National Secular Society whose certificate of de-baptism is downloadable from www.secularism.org.uk. "Liberate yourself from the Original Mumbo-Jumbo that liberated you from the Original Sin you never had," urges the site.

Dawkins and the National Secular Society, though, are no match for Christopher Hitchens in their hostility to religion. His new book, God Is Not Great: the Case Against Religion, is to be published by Atlantic Books in May. Its first chapter, drolly entitled Putting it Mildly, concludes: "As I write these words and as you read them, people of faith are in their different ways planning your and my destruction, and the destruction of all the hard-won human attainments that I have touched upon. Religion poisons everything." (Hitchens' italics.)

John Gray, professor of European Thought at the London School of Economics, whose book Black Mass: Apocalyptic Religion and the Death of Utopia will be published later this year, detects parallels between dogmatic believers and dogmatic unbelievers such as Hitchens and Dawkins. "It is not just in the rigidity of their unbelief that atheists mimic dogmatic believers. It is in their fixation on belief itself."

Gray argues that this fixation misses the point of religions: "The core of most religions is not doctrinal. In non-western traditions and even some strands of western monotheism, the spiritual life is not a matter of subscribing to a set of propositions. Its heart is in practice, in ritual, observance and (sometimes) mystical experience . . . When they dissect arguments for the existence of God, atheists parody the rationalistic theologies of western Christianity."

The intolerance for people of faith, though, might not seem to be the preserve of only angry atheists such as Dawkins and Hitchens. Instead, there is a widespread fear that religion is being treated as a problem to British society, best solved by airbrushing it from the public sphere. British Airways' insistence that employee Nadia Eweida remove her Christian cross, and Jack Straw's plea to Muslim women constituents to remove their veils at his surgery, have helped bring a sense of mutual persecution to many people of different faiths (including yarmulke-wearing Jews and turban-wearing Sikhs) - and a sense of solidarity. Many people of faith share a concern that Britain may be following secularist France, where 2004 reforms meant that "conspicuous religious symbols" could not be worn in public places, such as schools.

One particularly fraught current issue creating inter-faith solidarity is gay adoptions. Many Catholics, Anglicans, Muslims and Jews last month united against the government's sexual orientation regulations that would mean all adoption agencies could not discriminate against gay couples in placing children with adoptive parents.

Catholic leaders warned that their seven adoption agencies could not breach Vatican guidelines against allowing gay couples to adopt. Dr Muhammad Abdul Bari, secretary-general of the Muslim Council of Britain, supported the Catholics' stand, as did the Federation of Synagogues. And, of course, the issue of homosexuality is also dividing the Anglican communion. For evangelical groups such as Reform, the C of E is polarising into two churches, one "submitting to God's revelation", the other "shaped primarily by western secular culture". Again, western secular culture - if not of Dawkins' stamp - is seen as the worm in the apple, corrupting not just British society but the church itself. By contrast, for liberals in the church, whose number includes many gay vicars, the evangelicals' hostility to homosexuality seems unChristian, as does their stance on gay adoption.

The gay adoption issue also outraged many non-believers, among them philosopher AC Grayling, author of Life, Sex and Ideas: The Good Life without God. "These groups are trying to be exempt from the effort to be a fair society, and we are faced with the threat of a possible return to the dark ages. We are trying to keep a pluralistic society, and elements in the Christian church and other religions are trying to destroy it."

Why this departure from tolerant, if nicely ironic, Menckenism? Why the increasing division of Britain into shrill camps shouting unedifyingly at each other? One thing is certain: we've been here before. In 1860, one year after the publication of Darwin's On the Origin of Species, the Bishop of Oxford, Samuel Wilberforce, and TH Huxley, the naturalist described as "Darwin's bulldog", went toe-to-toe at Oxford's Natural History Museum. According to a contemporary report in McMillan's magazine, "The bishop turned to his antagonist with smiling insolence. He begged to know, was it through his grandfather or his grandmother that he claimed his descent from a monkey? Huxley rose to reply ... He [said he] was not ashamed to have a monkey for his ancestor; but he would be ashamed to be connected with a man who used great gifts to obscure the truth ... One lady fainted and had to be carried out."

"At that time the church was feeling very threatened and uncomfortable with non-religious society," says Hanne Stinson, executive director of the British Humanist Association. "There is a parallel with today - the church is feeling very threatened." Hence, perhaps, the nature of a dispute at Exeter University where the Christian Union was banned from using student union facilities after the Students' Guild charged that the CU was breaking equal opportunities policy by asking members to sign up to a list of beliefs that were discriminatory against non-Christians and gay people. The CU accused the guild of threatening its right to freedom of expression by imposing the ban: as in the gay adoption issue, anti-discrimination policy was running up against religious conviction. The Exeter ban has been repeated at other universities, prompting the Archbishop of Canterbury to argue that the bans threaten "the integrity of the whole educational process".

But today everyone is feeling threatened. Not just religious groups, but also pressure groups seeking to represent those without faith (who Stinson, citing last December's Ipsos Mori poll, suggests amount to 36% of Britons). Slee argues that low (below 7%) church attendance is a result of Christians being revolted by "the church presenting itself as narrow and non-inclusive".

In any event, the British Humanist Association campaigns against the existence of religious privileges in public life. Its symbolic struggle is BBC Radio 4's Thought for the Day slot, which the BHA argues unfairly excludes humanists and other non-faith people. But Radio 4 isn't the chief culprit: "We believe that the church having privileged access to government is not good," says Stinson. "The government has had this whole thing about giving a voice to religion, which was connected to the aim of building links with minority groups. But religions have become more and more dominating . It does connect to the whole multiculturalism debate because the government is funding faith schools in order to bind British minority ethnic groups to British society. But in so doing they are paying for people to be indoctrinated, to put it bluntly."

The role of religion in education raises a terrifying spectre for Grayling. "People who cherish tolerant argument are fighting back against the teaching of creationism in schools." Last November the Guardian revealed that 59 British schools were using teaching materials promoting a creationist alternative to Darwinian evolution, called intelligent design. At the same time Dawkins, nicknamed "Darwin's rottweiler", announced he was setting up a charity that will subsidise books, pamphlets and DVDs attacking the "educational scandal" of theories such as creationism while promoting rational and scientific thought.

Atheists such as Dawkins and Grayling fear that Britain may become more like the US, where creationism has more than a foothold. "In the US, two and half million people are educated at home because their parents don't want them exposed to Darwinian thinking," says Grayling. "Instead, they are often exposed to fundamentalist educational literature such as the A Beka books that maintain the world was created in 6,000 BC and that tyrannosaurus rex was a vegetarian. These developments worry intelligent people when the faith school issue comes up."

Indeed, only last week such intelligent people were worrying when the Tory leader, David Cameron, said he would be sending his daughter to a Church of England primary school instead of one of the many non-faith state schools in his area.

Children's author Philip Pullman argues that atheism should be taught in schools. "What I fear and deplore in the 'faith school' camp is their desire to close argument down and put some things beyond question or debate. It's vital to get clear in young minds what is a faith position and what is not, so that, for instance, they won't be taken in by religious people claiming that science is a faith position no different in kind from Christianity. Science is not a matter of faith, and too many people are being allowed to get away with claiming that it is."

Others argue that faith schools should be abolished and religion have no role in public life. Such is the Dawkins-Hitchens position. Why such hatred for religion and the proselytisation for its removal from the public sphere? One answer comes from Rabbi Julia Neuberger: "I think they're so angry about Muslims being so strident," she says. "And then they become angry about the Church of England wading into the issue of gays and adoption."

Neuberger is to take on Hitchens, Dawkins and Grayling when she speaks at a debate against the motion We'd Be Better Off Without Religion next month. The debate has been moved to a bigger venue. "What I find really distasteful is not just the tone of their rhetoric, but their lack of doubt," she says. "No scientific method says that there is no doubt. If you don't accept there's doubt in all things, you're being intellectually dishonest. "

This is a thought taken up by Azzim Tamimi, director of the Institute of Islamic Political Thought. "I refer to secular fundamentalism. The problem is that these people believe that they have the absolute truth. That means you have no room to talk to others so you end up having a physical fight. They want to close the door and ignore religion, but this will provoke a violent religiosity. If someone seeks to deny my existence, I will fight to assert it."

Tamimi's words also resonate with what the Archbishop of York, John Sentamu, said last November: "The aggressive secularists pervert and abuse any notion of diversity for the sake of promoting a narrow agenda." They also parallel the chilling remarks of Richard Chartres, Bishop of London: "If you exile religious communities to the margins, then they will start to speak the words of fire among consenting adults, and the threat to public order and the public arena, I think, will grow and grow."

Another reason for secularist rage at people of faith, one might think, is exasperation on the part of militant atheists that religion has not died out as they hoped. "It has taken centuries and centuries to wrestle away from the churches the levers of power," says Grayling.

Tamimi contends that this was not quite what happened. Rather, he suggests that Christians were complicit in their marginalisation from power. "Christians did that to themselves - they allowed religion to move to the private sphere. That would be intolerable for Muslims." Why? "Partly because secularism doesn't mean the same for Muslims from the Middle East. The story of secularism in the Middle East is not one of democracy, as we are always told it was in the west. Instead, it is associated with tyranny - with Ataturk in Turkey, for instance. Islam is compatible with democracy, but not with this secular fundamentalism we are witnessing."

Grayling contends that during the late 20th century, Islam became more militant and assertive and this has changed British society radically. "In Britain we have seen Muslims burn Salman Rushdie's book. And to an extent other religions wanted to get a bit of the action - hence the protests against Jerry Springer: the Opera." When Stewart Lee, one of the writers of Jerry Springer, was interviewed amid protests against the allegedly blasphemous work being screened on TV, he suggested that Islamic culture had been more careful in protecting itself than Christian culture: "In the west, Christianity relinquished the right to be protective of its icons the day Virgin Mary snow globes were put up for sale at the Vatican. But in Islamic culture it is very different. To use a corporate image, Islam has always been a lot more conscientious about protecting its brand." Now other religions are becoming more publicly conscientious.

One example of this growing conscientiousness is a recent paper for the new public theology think-tank Theos, in which Nick Spencer concluded that in the 21st century, liberal humanism would face a challenge from an "old man" - God. "The feeble and slightly embarrassing old man who had been pacing about the house quietly mumbling to himself suddenly wanted to participate in family conversation and, what's more, to be taken seriously." Indeed, in Britain's ethically repellent consumerist society, even some atheists might consider it would be good to hear from the old man again, if only to provide a moral framework beyond shopping.

The refrain of Christians like Spencer is that unless religion is a part of public-policy debates, then society will be impoverished. Last November the Archbishop of Canterbury gave a lecture in which he distinguished between programmatic and procedural secularism. The former meant that in the public domain, everybody had to silence their fundamental convictions and debate in a value-free atmosphere of public neutrality. For Williams, this was a hopeless way of carrying on public discourse in a bewildering society that embraced not only many faiths but many anti-faith positions, and in which real disputes over very different values needed to take place. Better was procedural secularism, which promised that different groups could at least converse with each other in public discussions over sensitive questions of value and policy. This would involve, said Williams, "a crowded and argumentative public square that acknowledges the authority of a legal mediator or broker whose job it is to balance and manage real difference".

It is an idea similar to one set out by Yahya Birt, research fellow at The Islamic Foundation. "One form of secularism suggests that religion should be kept in the private sphere. That's Dawkins' position. Another form, expressed by philosophers suc has Isaiah Berlin and John Gray, is to do with establishing a modus vivendi. It accepts that you come to the public debate with baggage that will inform your arguments. In this, the government tries to find common ground and the best possible consensus, which can only work if we share enough to behave civilly. Of course, there will be real clashes over issues such as gay adoption, but it's not clear to me that that's a problem per se."

What should such a public square be like? It might not be Menckian, but it could be based on respectful understanding of others' most cherished beliefs, argues Spencer: "We should be more willing to treat other value systems as coherent, reasonable and even valuable rather than as primitive or grotesque mutations of liberal humanism to which every sane person adheres." It is, at least, a hope, albeit one, given our current climate, in which it would be foolish to place too much faith.
source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/Stor ... rss&feed=1
 
Facinating article, really gets into the nitty gritty and raises some very good points. Good find Ghostdog19*.

*::EDIT:: Originally credited Ramon, not GD, my mistake.


N.B. Perhaps it would be better in the Militant Athiesm thread as there is very little on Dawkins past the first few paragraphs.
 
Anyone see the the South Park double episode with Richard Dawkins? Very good but i wonder what Richard himself would have thought of it.
 
feen5 said:
Anyone see the the South Park double episode with Richard Dawkins? Very good but i wonder what Richard himself would have thought of it.

Is it online anywhere?
 
Don't know i caught it on Paramount comedy they usually repeat them but when is anyones guess.
 
feen5 said:
Anyone see the the South Park double episode with Richard Dawkins? Very good but i wonder what Richard himself would have thought of it.
According to Penn Jillette (who had Matt and Trey on his radio show earlier in the week) Dawkins liked it, but thought the English accent sucked.
 
The God disunion: there is a place for faith in science, insists Winston

· IVF pioneer attacks 'patronising' evolutionist
· Claim that insulting tone damages public trust

James Randerson, science correspondent
Wednesday April 25, 2007
The Guardian

Lord Winston has condemned Professor Dawkins for his attitude to religious faith. Photograph: Murdo MacLeod

His nickname is Darwin's Rottweiler and he earned it - and a reputation that spans the globe - with his pugnacious defence of the theory of evolution.
But Professor Richard Dawkins' strident views, and the way with which they are delivered, came under surprise attack yesterday from an equally eminent scientist, though one better known for his more avuncular style.

Lord Winston condemned Prof Dawkins for what he called his "patronising" and "insulting" attitude to religious faith, and argued that he and others like him were in danger of damaging the public's trust in science. He particularly objected to Prof Dawkins' latest book, The God Delusion, which is an outright attack on religion

Source

Hmmm, could be an interesting debate. Winston may open himself up to a lot of flack from Dawkins and his ilk (more likely his ilk).
 
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