Roman Soldiers At The Treasurer's House, York

[GNC]

The water-cooler picture posted by oldrover is Marlon Brando in Julius Caesar, which was indeed 1953. The other big Roman picture of the year was The Robe with Richard Burton. There was certainly a lot of publicity around that first Cinemascope epic!

I see that Harry's tale is set in February that year; both The Robe and Julius Caesar were first shown in the UK nine months later but Romans were certainly in the air, if not under the floor!

Quo Vadis was released in 1951 and was a huge hit that spawned all those Roman epics of the 50s, he must have seen that at some point in the previous months.

 

[JamesWhitehead]

"So, young Harry, do you like Roman Soldiers?"

 

[GNC]

The classic (?) peplum era was nearer to the end of the decade!

 

[chicorea]

There is a certain number of points that seem to have been left aside in the whole discussion of this story :

1 - here and there, someone mentions some "archeological finds". Where can we verify what, when and where this happened? How can we know what, exactly, was found?

2 - working with the hypothesis that there were actually ghosts, it's because they were soldiers and had armors and weapons that they were "Romans". What was so distinctively roman on them? As far as I could understand from the extensive researchers that the members of the forum have done, this road was being used for hundreds of years, reaching even the beginning of the Middle Ages. There were different armies present around this region on different time frames.

3 - if the soldiers were walking below the level of the "cobbled roman road", they were not haunting the roman road... Or the cobbled road is not roman...

4 - here in France, I realized how remarkable is the survival of roman roads, in the countryside or inside the towns, Paris particularly. Why was the Treasure House built on a 45 degree angle OVER the road? It's a bit unlikely, isn't it?

5 - I still remember my treasured set of Airfix Roman figurines, from the 1960s. At least one of them sported a beautiful oval shield.

 

[Mythopoeika]

3 - if the soldiers were walking below the level of the "cobbled roman road", they were not haunting the roman road... Or the cobbled road is not roman...

That's a point, yes.
However, a cobbled road may have been built on top of a Roman road. Instead of repairing the original Roman road, someone may have built another layer on top.

 

[oldrover]

3 - if the soldiers were walking below the level of the "cobbled roman road", they were not haunting the roman road... Or the cobbled road is not roman...

I'm pretty sure he said they weren't visible fully until they reached the old Roman road level, after which they were. But, that and this post

However, a cobbled road may have been built on top of a Roman road. Instead of repairing the original Roman road, someone may have built another layer on top.

Raises another issue. I can't remember why the soldiers were dated to the first or second century, but if there was a reason then they'd still be walking on the wrong level. Because given the Roman period in Northern England would have lasted until at least the early 5thC (ignore the 410 date it's spurious) then the road level would have risen considerably between the the 1st-2nd Centuries, until the last time it was maintained sometime around 300 years later, which is the logical level for the surface Martindale's ladder was on. Just like the surface level has altered since the mid 17thC to today.

Also, if there's no reason to date the figures to the early part of the Roman period, and they might have been later, then the shield shape isn't an issue, as what we think of as Roman equipment had become much more irregular, and changed unrecognisably. At the end they didn't look like this,

http://gb.fotolibra.com/images/previews/354153-ermine-street-guard.jpeg

But like this

http://www.caerleon.net/history/arthur/britannia/DSCF5509.jpg

this

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CTmtG-gWcAEKQqr.jpg

or this

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.co...b6f2b6fa6fe33d9b--pax-romana-roma-antigua.jpg

 

[chicorea]

I'm pretty sure he said they weren't visible fully until they reached the old Roman road level, after which they were. But, that and this post


Raises another issue. I can't remember why the soldiers were dated to the first or second century, but if there was a reason then they'd still be walking on the wrong level. Because given the Roman period in Northern England would have lasted until at least the early 5thC (ignore the 410 date it's spurious) then the road level would have risen considerably between the the 1st-2nd Centuries, until the last time it was maintained sometime around 300 years later, which is the logical level for the surface Martindale's ladder was on. Just like the surface level has altered since the mid 17thC to today.

Also, if there's no reason to date the figures to the early part of the Roman period, and they might have been later, then the shield shape isn't an issue, as what we think of as Roman equipment had become much more irregular, and changed unrecognisably. At the end they didn't look like this,

http://gb.fotolibra.com/images/previews/354153-ermine-street-guard.jpeg

But like this

http://www.caerleon.net/history/arthur/britannia/DSCF5509.jpg

this

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CTmtG-gWcAEKQqr.jpg

or this

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.co...b6f2b6fa6fe33d9b--pax-romana-roma-antigua.jpg

True, @Mythopeikoeika are @oldrover are right. But, then again, what kind of archeological finds were unearthed around this area? How were the finds related to the sighting? And were they from the same stratus of the road?
And why was the town built over the road, and not following its way, as so many have been?

 

[Mythopoeika]

And why was the town built over the road, and not following its way, as so many have been?

I don't think they had town planning back then!
Maybe there was a toll gate built across the road, which eventually morphed into the town council building?

 

[oldrover]

what kind of archeological finds were unearthed around this area?

I strongly suspect that nothing has been found and tied to the era, as regards Martindale's sighting that is, but then we don't really have an era from Martindale. Just some generic Roman descriptions. Remember, the supporting evidence, or that there is any supporting evidence, comes from Ghost TV programmes, as far as I know anyway, and they have absolutely no obligation to either check facts, or be accurate in what they say.

 

[EnolaGaia]

... However, a cobbled road may have been built on top of a Roman road. Instead of repairing the original Roman road, someone may have built another layer on top.

I can't cite which source(s) were which, but I noticed among the ones I reviewed there were two distinct explanations for the 'higher / lower level' bit:

(1) The simple notion that the level of the contemporary cellar floor was circa 15 - 18 inches higher than the Roman road level (singular), and ...

(2) The more complex claim that the Romans themselves had revised / repaired the road resulting in multiple levels (i.e., discernible strata; plural).

I saw version (1) more often than version (2).

 

[EnolaGaia]

Raises another issue. I can't remember why the soldiers were dated to the first or second century ...

That's the reason I was delving into the history of Roman military garb and equipment - to see if there was a solid basis for correlating Martindale's description with a period less vague than 'the Roman era' - a temporal focus that might in turn suggest a particular incident or event consistent with the generation of ghosts / phantoms (e.g., a tragic loss or disaster).

 

[Howkflakegirl]

In response to the person who asked whether there were any other witness statements - the woman who led the tour at the Treasurer's House told us about a few people who had apparently seen/heard them, and mentioned people who had lived there (before Henry's alleged sighting). It's definitely worth having a look round and doing the tour, they have archaeological stuff there and you can see the cellar and the dug out road.

In regards to the bit where I said it was true that finds like the stuff Henry described had been found since Henry first spoke of this that confirmed his story - that's true.

I think the thing about this story that is so compelling is the clothing aspect. It seems so odd he would describe these Romans wearing those outfits, be dismissed over it, and then later on have those outfits or very similar outfits unearthed in this country. I would doubt that those sort of outfits would have been in films etc, you'd think if he was lying he would talk about the Roman clothing that people in the 50s-70s thought was correct.

 

[Ghost In The Machine]

I wouldn't find it odd that a house in the centre of a built up, old city, might go over a road and at a totally different orientation to it. Roman roads were likely to be lost under a few feet of accumulated dirt, where they were no longer in regular use - and buildings were plopped all over the place, in medieval York, and later.

What is also interesting re. the clothing is the fact that when his 'incorrect' description of the clothing/shields was used to discredit his story, he doesn't seem to have veered from his original version or changed it.

Incidentally, although some of the famous, long Roman roads exist to this day in the UK - many more are lost. As I posted elsewhere, digging foundations for some new houses in what had been my childhood back garden and orchard, two Roman stone sarcophagi were found - and thought to be military graves, by a roadside (as was the Roman custom - bury people outside towns, alongside roads). Coincidentally, a housing estate going up at the other end of the village uncovered some intact Roman road - previously entirely unknown. None of the existing (medieval and later) roads even remotely followed this Roman one. The part uncovered at the other end of the village, maybe a mile from our house, was, it was thought, part of the same road as the one that ran under our garden. But of course, all trace of it ever having been there long gone.

The old (Roman) Great North Road was still in the same place though and also ran through our village.

 

[Ghost In The Machine]

In terms of 'outfits' - leather and fabric are rare survivors (although possible in the soil of York, as Jorvik shows!) I'm not sure what archaeology has subsequently backed up his story but am aware that it's claimed that it has.

Enola, I think that some people make a connection between the famous Ninth Legion, and the sighting - as they appear to have disappeared, and not been accounted for. One of those history mysteries. And they were based on that site, at some point before they vanish into thin air.

1950s' York residents might be well have been aware of that. If my dad was still alive I would have asked him!

 

[EnolaGaia]

... Enola, I think that some people make a connection between the famous Ninth Legion, and the sighting - as they appear to have disappeared, and not been accounted for. One of those history mysteries. And they were based on that site, at some point before they vanish into thin air. ...

Agreed ... If there were anything in Martindale's sighting that might help associate the soldier figures with the 9th versus the 6th Legion, it would greatly aid in narrowing down the timeframe of the ghostly procession. The 9th disappears from Roman Britain record keeping circa 108 CE, and there's apparently Roman record evidence that Hadrian swapped out whomever was manning the York / Eboracum enclave for the 6th Victrix circa the time of his visit around 122 CE.

After that, the 9th is believed (based on archaeological evidence citing the legion) to have spent time at or around Nijmegen, from no earlier than circa 108 CE to sometime around 120 - 130 CE. They may not have moved all at once, and it's conceivable only a (surviving?) portion of the 9th ever made it from Britain to Nijmegen.

The 9th disappears as a listed legion sometime between circa 120 CE and 197 CE. This latter date / boundary derives from the dating of two contemporary listings of Roman legions that omit any mention of the 9th.

The most popular explanation is that the 9th was effectively destroyed either in northern Britain or in some subsequent location for which there are hypotheses but no records (e.g., Judea; Armenia). I can't find any published support for the notion the 9th may have simply been dissolved and / or merged into the newly-arriving 6th circa 120-something CE. There are precedents for legions having been disbanded (as opposed to destroyed).

 

[Kingsize Wombat]

I still remember my treasured set of Airfix Roman figurines, from the 1960s. At least one of them sported a beautiful oval shield.

Well remembered! Exactly one soldier in that set did have an oval shield.

http://www.plasticsoldierreview.com/review.aspx?id=610

 

[Bororeturn1]

I believe the guy is telling the truth..........I think the analysis of what or could have happened is fascinating but again why would a young lad make up such a story.......hes appeared on countless T.V. shows & his accounts are in magazines & books, plus the account he gave, didn't try & glamorise any of his experience, he just told it as it happened.....the uniform, weapons, appearance etc.....

Also many years ago talk of `ghosts` was sort of frowned upon in that some people where worried about being labelled `mentally unstable & not right` now weve got more ghost programs than you can shake a stick at.


if someone said to me `Roman Soldier` the first image I would have is Richard Burton or Burt Lancaster` dressed up in all their Roman `finery`......not soldiers looking miserable, unwashed, wearing `dyed` kilts & with round shields (when a lot of Films at the time had the Romans with rectangular shields & wearing gold breast plates, with bright red plumage).

The first time I heard this story was on a T.V. programme on ITV late one night ( a sort of discussion programme) & he & other guests recounted their stories......I was fascinated & as a young boy i hung onto his every word & im almost 100% sure that on this T.V. show he recounted that hed gone `back upstairs` & on encountering the first person he saw, they said to him something along the lines of `oh, youve seen the Romans i take it`(he hadnt said a word, he must have been white with Shock).

Its one of the best & most wrote about ghost sightings ever.

 

[staticgirl]

why would a young lad make up such a story.......hes appeared on countless T.V. shows & his accounts are in magazines & books

Just to act as Devil's Advocate for a second, a middle aged man in the 1970s with occasional health issues might well make up a story about a sighting as a young man for interviews with journalists and tv to brighten up his life a bit. He could have become more interested in history in later years like a lot of people do.

I don't think that is what happened but it is possible. Watching the video he does appear credible like something happened to him. It is a top story though which I really want to be true.

 

[GNC]

It is a great story, but just because he convinced himself he saw the soldiers doesn't mean he did. It's the old false memories conundrum all over again. Mind you, it is such a one of a kind case that its very novelty could have meant it's true, if you're into glitch supernatural explanations.

 

[gattino]

Most will have read over the years of the famous case of a whole line of ghostly Roman legionnaires passing through a cellar wall in York.

Well here is the original face to face account on camera of the experience by the man who witnessed it.

 

[blessmycottonsocks]

Not a Roman soldier per se, but perhaps one of their bosses and I thought it was worth posting this here.

My now habitual biphasic sleep saw me wake around 01:30 this morning and, as I didn't feel like going straight back to sleep, I plugged in the earphones and listened to Radio 5 Live for 45 minutes or so.
As it is Halloween weekend, the theme of the radio phone in was ghostly encounters listeners may have had.
One, in particular, seemed more impressive than the rest.
A woman with a strong accent described how she saw a ghostly vision appear in her house. She described him as a middle-aged man, with a full head of hair, dressed in a wrap-around white robe and with a sort of garland or wreath of leaves on his head. The radio presenter Dotun Adebayo mentioned that it sounded like a Roman senator and the woman agreed. Apparently, the woman tried blinking a few times, but the vision persisted until around the third blink. What I found particularly interesting was that the woman was a Filipino immigrant and, when asked if she had ever seen something similar in the Philippines, she said that she supposed ghosts did exist there, but she had never seen one before. Curious that a woman from a very different cultural background should have seen a very Euro-centric type of ghost.
Sorry but I didn't catch the details of her location or whether there are any Roman ruins in the vicinity.
It sounded like it must have looked something like this:

 

[escargot]

Not a Roman soldier per se, but perhaps one of their bosses and I thought it was worth posting this here.

My now habitual biphasic sleep saw me wake around 01:30 this morning and, as I didn't feel like going straight back to sleep, I plugged in the earphones and listened to Radio 5 Live for 45 minutes or so.
As it is Halloween weekend, the theme of the radio phone in was ghostly encounters listeners may have had.
One, in particular, seemed more impressive than the rest.
A woman with a strong accent described how she saw a ghostly vision appear in her house. She described him as a middle-aged man, with a full head of hair, dressed in a wrap-around white robe and with a sort of garland or wreath of leaves on his head. The radio presenter Dotun Adebayo mentioned that it sounded like a Roman senator and the woman agreed. Apparently, the woman tried blinking a few times, but the vision persisted until around the third blink. What I found particularly interesting was that the woman was a Filipino immigrant and, when asked if she had ever seen something similar in the Philippines, she said that she supposed ghosts did exist there, but she had never seen one before. Curious that a woman from a very different cultural background should have seen a very Euro-centric type of ghost.
Sorry but I didn't catch the details of her location or whether there are any Roman ruins in the vicinity.
It sounded like it must have looked something like this:

View attachment 47387

That's fantastic!

Different cultures have their own traditions about ghosts/the afterlife. When people emigrate do they take their own ghosts with them, or do they see their new country's ghosts?

 

[maximus otter]

Not a Roman soldier per se, but perhaps one of their bosses and I thought it was worth posting this here.

My now habitual biphasic sleep saw me wake around 01:30 this morning and, as I didn't feel like going straight back to sleep, I plugged in the earphones and listened to Radio 5 Live for 45 minutes or so.
As it is Halloween weekend, the theme of the radio phone in was ghostly encounters listeners may have had.
One, in particular, seemed more impressive than the rest.
A woman with a strong accent described how she saw a ghostly vision appear in her house. She described him as a middle-aged man, with a full head of hair, dressed in a wrap-around white robe and with a sort of garland or wreath of leaves on his head. The radio presenter Dotun Adebayo mentioned that it sounded like a Roman senator and the woman agreed. Apparently, the woman tried blinking a few times, but the vision persisted until around the third blink. What I found particularly interesting was that the woman was a Filipino immigrant and, when asked if she had ever seen something similar in the Philippines, she said that she supposed ghosts did exist there, but she had never seen one before. Curious that a woman from a very different cultural background should have seen a very Euro-centric type of ghost.
Sorry but I didn't catch the details of her location or whether there are any Roman ruins in the vicinity.
It sounded like it must have looked something like this:

View attachment 47387

We could, of course, be looking at selection bias here. A (recent?) immigrant to the UK might be very conscious of our history, and the Romans' involvement in same.

When most people think "Roman", they think about togas, though only a tiny proportion of the Roman population would have worn them at all frequently; in fact, by the time the Romans had a serious presence in Britain, the toga would have been regarded as a PITA, and only worn, grumbling, at very posh dos.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toga

The laurel wreath is another thing we're conditioned to associate with Romans, though it was only worn by the victors of great military triumphs.

Perhaps this lady was more attuned to Animal House than UK history?

maximus otter

 

[eburacum]

There have been some questions about the archaeological remains in this region. I've made a rough map of the area, showing the location of the Treasurer's house and the main road out of the Legionary fortress, which went underneath the corner of that house. If Martindale really saw Roman legionaries walking along this road, they would have been right up against the inside wall of the cellar (which is incidentally open to the public, and you can go and have a look yourself).

There are plenty of Roman remains beneath the buildings in this location, as well as Anglian, Viking, Medieval and later stuff. I expect they all have ghosts - I've even experienced one myself there, as mentioned in post #4.

 

[eburacum]

Here's a better image, showing the route of the road (the Via Decumana) as it passes under the corner of the Treasurer's house.

 

[Ghost In The Machine]

Oh - now since posting above, I found summat else out.

Daughter in law is an illustrator and we have a shared interest in the paranormal. We keep talking about collaborating on a book - I write, she illustrates - York's untold ghost stories. Over the years we've heard a few straight from various horses' mouths that I know not to be published elsewhere. (Husband also works in a tourist related thing so he's heard quite a few too). Because she works in the centre of York in a shop pretty close to the Minster - part time, as well as illustrates professionally, she has heard all the ghost stories - and had a few experiences - relating to her shop.

I won't identify the street it's on but you can see the Minster from it - not on the same side as Treasurer's House and it's not a place at all associated in the public mind with Harry's Romans.

Anyway she was asking around. Along her street, most shops (in medieval or Georgian buildings) have basements. But almost nobody stores stock in these, even though it would be free. She found out why. Apparently, in the basements of a whole string of shops - presumably along the line of a Roman road - for years now, workers have seen the same thing Harry Martindale did. For that reason, most of the shops pay for storage space elsewhere in the town centre. This costs £, as you can imagine, but the feeling is so strong - many staff and in more than one shop on the same street, refuse to go into the cellars.

I had never heard this til my DIL unearthed it. She was told by someone in a different shop, not where she works and she had the impression it was seen by different people, along that street, on a number of occasions.

It's one we will be finding out more about. When tis safer to venture out and my long covid permits, I'll start work on it.

Shop she works in is haunted by a child - some of her coworkers have worked there for decades and a number have had experiences, including my DIL. I found it quite telling that so many shops down this one street have closed off the basements (most shops in town seem to be leased) and actually pay out money to store stock elsewhere when there is no need to.

Incidentally, son worked in a tourist trap shop on The Shambles for several years and their cellar was in use. (A number of those shops are owned by the city council).

 

[Ghost In The Machine]

There have been some questions about the archaeological remains in this region. I've made a rough map of the area, showing the location of the Treasurer's house and the main road out of the Legionary fortress, which went underneath the corner of that house. If Martindale really saw Roman legionaries walking along this road, they would have been right up against the inside wall of the cellar (which is incidentally open to the public, and you can go and have a look yourself).

There are plenty of Roman remains beneath the buildings in this location, as well as Anglian, Viking, Medieval and later stuff. I expect they all have ghosts - I've even experienced one myself there, as mentioned in post #4.View attachment 47404

If I could figure out the streets, I could see how that meshes with the experiences down that certain street... writing on it too pixellated to read. Have you a clearer version? I can't ID the place I'm on about, suffice to say it is a very well known tourist trap street bang in town centre.

 

[Ghost In The Machine]

Here's a better image, showing the route of the road (the Via Decumana) as it passes under the corner of the Treasurer's house.
View attachment 47407

Oops missed this. Has anyone superimposed that over the current streetmap? I can't quite figure out in my head where the place I'm thinking of is, related to that? Do any of the roads follow the line of a still existing road?

 

[eburacum]

The Via Decumana more-or-less followed the road now known as Chapter House Street, although it was almost certainly quite a bit wider. Some of the Roman Road passed under the corner of the Treasurer's House, which wasn't there at the time.

 

[Ghost In The Machine]

The Via Decumana more-or-less followed the road now known as Chapter House Street, although it was almost certainly quite a bit wider. Some of the Roman Road passed under the corner of the Treasurer's House, which wasn't there at the time.

View attachment 47489

Used to walk the dog down there most nights in winter. Haven't been to York except for my son's wedding, for 20 months and we're so close we used to walk dog there (as other dogs tend to be on leads and we loved seeing Minster lit up at night). Plus no street lights out here in the sticks and the dog has night time walks. Not sure I could walk that far now from where we used to park our car to town centre...