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Scientifically Recognised Possession?

gattino

Justified & Ancient
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Jul 30, 2003
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For all I know this may have been mentioned frequently and I've just never been aware of it. But I came across a reference in Will Storr's book to a paper in the British Journal of Psychiatry in 1994 in which the authors, 2 psychiatrists, gave an account of medically, and successfully, treating a patient apparently suffering from possession by a ghost. What was remarkable was that the paper's authors leave the clear inference that the possession itself was objectively real and witnessed by outside observors. I finally found a fall transcript of the paper here:
http://www.mindhacks.com/blog/2005/04/c ... sychi.html

If you go to that page also read the email at the very bottom of it from a terrified member of the public seeking help as he feels he's suffering the same thing!

Anyway here's the paper:

A 22-year old unemployed Hindu Indian male, in Britain with his family since the age of six, was interviewed while remanded for theft of a taxi, robbery, and kidnap of the driver. He was apprehensive about prison despite previous remands and one short custodial sentence. He admitted the charges, but claimed that his behaviour was under control of a ghost. Prison staff considered him to be malingering. He was admitted under Section 35 of the Mental Health Act 1983 for reports.
His history emerged from the patient himself, family members, the family doctor, and hospital and prison records. The patient said his problems began at a family gathering when he was aged 11. An aunt, jealous of the success of the patient's family, fed him and his elder brother cursed sweet rice, rendering them susceptible to spirit possession. His brother was afflicted by years of physical weakness and impotence. The ghost of an old woman intermittently possessed the patient, taking control of his body and rendering him a powerless observer while she made him do wicked things.

Warning of imminent possession was a fog which the patient would see drifting towards him, settling initially on his chest and making him breathless, then entering his body through his nose and mouth, making him retch and wheeze as he resisted, and taking control of his whole body, including his voice. There was no hyperventilation or other features suggestive of a panic attack. There was no history of antecedent events, conflicts or stresses. While possessed, lasting from half an hour to several days, the patient was aware of his surroundings through all senses, although often blunted as though through a haze. He lost motor control, but retained awareness of emotions, remembering fear, anger and guilt. He would 'struggle' mentally to prevent his body's actions, usually unsuccessfully. He experienced command hallucinations, and occasionally the ghost's voice commented on his actions to unheard others. Even when not possessed, he thought the spirit could listen to his thoughts, punishing him if he told people about her. He remembered most events while possessed.

The ghost forced him into petty pilfering, truancy, shoplifting, car theft (to kidnap, to travel to a cemetery and look at her grave), and to jump from a bridge in front of a train (a punishment for struggling against the ghost’s will).

The patient was an intelligent, well educated and insightful young man, westernised in his appearance and apparent outlook. He said he gained nothing from his behaviour, deriving no excitement from his adventures while possessed and did not need the things he stole, receiving a generous allowance from his family who were financially comfortable professionals. He recognised the effects of his behaviour on the family, from which the jealous aunt took pleasure. Evidence of her continuing malign involvement were spells written on paper and charms of bird feathers scattered around the patient's home. His parents initially would not listen, fearing stigma, but eventually consulted local religious leaders. They sent him to holy places in India where he was exorcised, by a Hindu priest and later a Moslem peer. Inpatient with the failure, which seemed to increase the ghost's anger, he unsuccessfully consulted Christian priests.

During the period of remand, the patient displayed periods of nocturnal anxiety, withdrawal, depersonalisation and apparent response to hallucinations. Routine physical examination and blood chemistry, haematology and endocrinology were normal. The patient was apyretic, although complained of being hot. Blood and urine screens for illicit drugs were negative. EEG and computerised tomography scans were normal. Family relationships seemed comfortable and supportive.

We were disturbed by a telephone call from the prison chaplain who described seeing the ghost possess the patient in prison, seeing a descending cloud and an impression of a face alarmingly like a description of the dead woman given to us by the patient, of which the chaplain denied prior knowledge. Similar reports came from frightened cellmates. He and our hospital chaplain concurred on genuine possession. This is an acceptable belief within pastoral counselling (Issacs, 1987).

Western medical belief systems led us to a differential diagnosis of dissociative state or paranoid schizophrenia. However, we were conscious that the beliefs of at least four priests from three different religions cast doubt on the delusional nature of the phenomena.

Exorcism having failed, we prescribed trifluoperazine (4mg daily) producing apparent remission. Following return to remand prison, he was commenced on a depot neuroleptic, zuclopenthixol decanoate, remaing in remission 12 weeks later following hospital transfer.


Incidentally the paper was provocatively titled "Exorcism-resistant ghost possession treated with Clopenthixol"
 
A very interesting article. It is particularly interesting that antipsychotic medication led to a 'remission' in symptoms.

There is a theory, known as 'transliminality', which refers to information crossing over into the conscious mind from the unconscious. Certain mental health conditions are known to correlate with high transliminality; bipolar and psychotic disorders in particular. High transliminality in non clinical populations is also correlated with higher incidence of reported anomalistic experiences.

For a while, one of my jobs was to ascertain whether people who were making anomalistic claims (eg. alien abductions and possessions) could be identified as mentally unwell. It proved to be a very difficult task, because some of the least symptomatic people had the most outrageous experiences, and some of the most symptomatic people had equally outrageous experiences. Some of the people who would appear to be experiencing a psychotic or dissociative condition, had experiences which were verified by non-related independent witnesses (especially where poltergeist phenomena is concerned).

I think our models are inadequate when it comes to this kind of phenomena.
 
Western medical belief systems led us to a differential diagnosis of dissociative state or paranoid schizophrenia. However, we were conscious that the beliefs of at least four priests from three different religions cast doubt on the delusional nature of the phenomena.

Exorcism having failed, we prescribed trifluoperazine (4mg daily) producing apparent remission. Following return to remand prison, he was commenced on a depot neuroleptic, zuclopenthixol decanoate, remaing in remission 12 weeks later following hospital transfer.

charming. they're not sure if he's mentally ill or possessed, but either way, they got him well enough to go back to the can :(
 
I think our models are inadequate when it comes to this kind of phenomena.

do you think we're looking at something like unconscious use of say, telekinetic ability? or the mutability of human memory, which is really quite bizarre enough in itself?

i found it interesting that shortly after the de Menzes shooting, a number of witnesses initially claimed to have seen wires poking out of his jacket, which was later established not to be the case. i guess in that situation, it was more tenable for them to believe they'd seen evidence of a bomb (and therefore a bad thing happen to a bad person) rather than no bomb (innocent guy who could just as well have been them slotted in front of them).
 
BlackRiverFalls said:
I think our models are inadequate when it comes to this kind of phenomena.

do you think we're looking at something like unconscious use of say, telekinetic ability? or the mutability of human memory, which is really quite bizarre enough in itself?

i found it interesting that shortly after the de Menzes shooting, a number of witnesses initially claimed to have seen wires poking out of his jacket, which was later established not to be the case. i guess in that situation, it was more tenable for them to believe they'd seen evidence of a bomb (and therefore a bad thing happen to a bad person) rather than no bomb (innocent guy who could just as well have been them slotted in front of them).

Yes, the memory's capacity for confabulation is remarkable.

Personally, I think that what we are witnessing in poltergeist/possession cases is not one thing. It's more like a syndrome that includes both intrapsychic and extrapsychic phenomena. So, confabulation, misinterpretation, confirmation bias, hallucinations, folie à famille, all occur together with some genuinely weird phenomena. It's almost as though drama creates a fertile ground for this kind of thing to occur. It seems to be additionally influenced by *crisis, *puberty or *hyper-religiosity (any religion).

Just my opinion though ... what do you think?
 
I personally witnessed the 'exorcism' of someone that was supposedly possessed. He had been involved with satanism and the 2 hour ritual certainly displayed all the classic manifestations of such cases (even speaking Latin phrases). We were 19 at the time and this was decades ago before such things were widely known (ruling out 'acting' on his part?).

One thing that I found particular puzzling was that after it was over, it was as though he had received a good dose of ECT. He exhibited short term amnesia and could not even remember how he got there (I had actually transported him). Now I suppose it's possible that such a violent and lengthy catharsis could actually effect the brain. I knew a woman who underwent insulin shock treatment for depression (back in the day when they used to practice such). She reported being quite disoriented for some time after.

Now what is really freaky is that the minister told him that if he returned to satanism his life would be taken. Well sure enough he did because he became angry at his girl friends father and wanted to put a curse on him. Shortly thereafter, he had a freak skate board accident in Miami, hit his head on the pavement and died.
 
Just my opinion though ... what do you think?

i think that in context, it's somewhere between incredibly difficult and impossible to separate out what might be genuine paranormal events from either a combination of paranormal/intrapsychic stuff or just plain what's going on in people's heads.

i guess that if external entities are taking advantage of that kind of situation to act, essentially with plausible deniability, then by definition we'd expect the above to be the case... it is like the theoretical 'perfect crime' that remains both theoretical and perfect precisely because we cannot prove that it occurred.
 
gattino said:
What was remarkable was that the paper's authors leave the clear inference that the possession itself was objectively real and witnessed by outside observors.

I assume you mean the reports from the prison chaplain and the cellmates. The inference I see the authors making there is not that the possession was objectively real but that a chaplain's prior belief primed them to concur on the genuineness of the possession.

There are a couple of problems with the authors' account in that paragraph. The major one is "the chaplain denied prior knowledge...." Why would a chaplain telephone psychiatrists to describe a ghostly possession, unless the chaplain already knew that's what the psychiatrists were treating the prisoner for? If the chaplain knows the psychiatrists are treating the prisoner for possession, how did he come by that knowledge? It's unlikely to have come from the psychiatrists, who are bound by doctor-patient confidentiality; and the chaplain is likewise bound by pastoral confidentiality, so why is he phoning the psychiatrists about a prisoner in the first place?

It makes sense if you suppose that the prisoner told the chaplain that the psychiatrists were treating him for possession, and provided details; and that when the chaplain began to share the prisoner's delusion, the patient then asked the chaplain to phone the psychiatrists to attest to the possession, and perhaps asked not to be mentioned as the source of the request.

The other problem is with the reports from the cellmates. I'd be suspicious of reports from a prisoner locked in a cell 24/7 with a psychosis sufferer. Firstly, because, again, there's the possibility that they've come to share a delusion. Secondly, because ending up in prison indicates a serious history of not thinking clearly. A psychosis sufferer's prison cellmate is just not the most reliable of witnesses.

So, although there were reports of people claiming to witness the ghostly possession, those reports strike me as problematic and unreliable.
 
That strikes me as wilful misinterpretation. At no point does it say the chaplain denied prior knowledge of the patients treatment or of claims of possession.

What it says is that he described the features of the old woman matching the description given to the psychiatrists, and of which he denied prior knowledge.

The circumstances under which the telephone conversation came about are not revealed and prior beliefs on the part of the chaplain abut the subject of possession (of which very few if any mainstream clerics would have the slightest interest or knowledge I would suggest) are not detailed at any point. Referring therefore to such prior beliefs and to both the chaplain and the unnamed cellmates sharing the prisoners's "delusions" starts off from a viewpoint that it was a delusion, could only have been a delusion, and then making random untestable diagnoses of these individuals in order to make them fit in with that pre-existing viewpoint. Inventing facts to suit a desired belief.

Every person involved may well have been a deranged liar. But there is not a single piece of evidence in the report to suggest or justify such a conclusion, other than personally finding the alternative unacceptable to your beliefs.
 
gattino said:
That strikes me as wilful misinterpretation.

Each of us has an honest opinion about the passage.


gattino said:
...prior beliefs on the part of the chaplain abut the subject of possession (of which very few if any mainstream clerics would have the slightest interest or knowledge I would suggest)....

My old Catholic parish priest and the priests who schooled me often raised the topic, particularly in relation to Bible readings in which Jesus cured demonic possession.


gattino said:
Referring therefore to such prior beliefs and to both the chaplain and the unnamed cellmates sharing the prisoners's "delusions" starts off from a viewpoint that it was a delusion, could only have been a delusion, and then making random untestable diagnoses of these individuals in order to make them fit in with that pre-existing viewpoint. Inventing facts to suit a desired belief....But there is not a single piece of evidence in the report to suggest or justify such a conclusion, other than personally finding the alternative unacceptable to your beliefs.

I invented nothing. The report notes that the patient underwent apparent remission after prescription of trifluoperazine and zuclopenthixol decanoate - both antipsychotic drugs. Antipsychotics, as the name suggests, are used in the treatment of psychosis - which involves delusions. Ergo, remission was due to the antipsychotic drugs reducing the patient's delusions.
 
Actually your "rational" interpretation gets more irrational, and certainly unfounded, with each reading.

Ffalstaf said:
The inference I see the authors making there is not that the possession was objectively real but that a chaplain's prior belief primed them to concur on the genuineness of the possession.

You've certainly inferred that, but where did the authors? At no time do they make any allusion to the chaplain or cellmates either suffering delusion or having prior beliefs. Which section of the article did you get that from?

There are a couple of problems with the authors' account in that paragraph. The major one is "the chaplain denied prior knowledge...." Why would a chaplain telephone psychiatrists to describe a ghostly possession, unless the chaplain already knew that's what the psychiatrists were treating the prisoner for? If the chaplain knows the psychiatrists are treating the prisoner for possession, how did he come by that knowledge? It's unlikely to have come from the psychiatrists, who are bound by doctor-patient confidentiality; and the chaplain is likewise bound by pastoral confidentiality, so why is he phoning the psychiatrists about a prisoner in the first place?

As a cause for suspicion this doesn't hold up to even a moment's consideration. The pastor is not the prisoner's religious minister and is not taking confession. The prisoner is a hindu. On which point also its worth noting that if the pastor was of such fundamentalist christian belief that he had an active pre-existing belief in the supernatural reality of possession then he would neither, you can surmise, be engaged by the prison service to minister to all faiths nor would he recognise the particular supernatural aspects of this prisoners account as being in accord with his christian beliefs. Apart from it giving credence to the supernatural validity of a "heathen" religion , Christian religious notions of posession do not recognise ghosts, curses or magic rice. A christian cleric of the fixed mindset you impose upon this one would surely be more inclined to see the prisoner's experiences as fake, not less so.

The phone call presents no mystery. The pastor and the psychiatrists are part of the prison appointed care team of an apparently delusional man. The psychiatrists would be employed from outside the prison and the pastor would be engaged to keep an eye on hsi and other prisoners mental and emotional state on a day to day basis. They would certainly confer on his overall care, his general behaviou, and his response to treatment.. If the pastor then sees something extraordinary occur which casts astonishing doubt on the assumption that its all in the man's head, of course he'd phone the doctors who are adminstering drugs to him to alert them to this fact. Under what circumstances would he not? And as stated earlier the "prior knowledge" the Pastor is said not to have had is not that the man is undergoing psychiatric treatment or that he claims to be possessed, but rather of the specific physical characteristics of the "old woman" the patient had described to the psychiatric team.

The other problem is with the reports from the cellmates. I'd be suspicious of reports from a prisoner locked in a cell 24/7 with a psychosis sufferer. Firstly, because, again, there's the possibility that they've come to share a delusion. Secondly, because ending up in prison indicates a serious history of not thinking clearly. A psychosis sufferer's prison cellmate is just not the most reliable of witnesses.

This is suppositon heaped on invention piled upon prejudice. Again you're making all manner of unreported assumptions about the circumstances under which the events were witnessed, and, more alarmingly, assessing and diagnosing the mental state or people of whom you've been told nothing. On what basis, other than having as a starting point the conviction that it can't have happened therefore anything that suggests it did must be innacurate or untrue by definition.

Whatever that is, it ain't rational! And it surely ain't science.
 
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I won't discuss this while you're in a mood for put-downs.
 
There are FMRI scans of a demonic possession:

Resting stated-tractography-fMRI in initial phase of spiritual possession - A case report

https://www.oatext.com/pdf/TiM-18-137.pdf

Objective: A cortical and subcortical area involved in a Functional Magnetic Resonance in a young woman in the first phase of a spiritual possession induced by an exorcism is presented. Background: Female 29 years of age, university student, from dysfunctional family. She began her suffering 11 years ago with personality dissociation, characterized by aversion to sacred objects and images, and psychomotor agitation with transient states of loss of consciousness with manifestations of spiritual possession that required psychiatric, and psychological treatment, and 5 exorcisms without improvement over a period of ten years. She is currently taking and has taken, clonazepam for ten years. Laboratory studies, EEG, brain scans (Computed tomography CT-scan) and Functional Magnetic Resonance (fMRI) reveal no evidence of organic or functional diseases. Methodology: The patient was initially evaluated by a psychologist, psychiatrist, neurosurgeon, and GI endoscopist, who excluded brain and gastrointestinal disorders, with complete medical record, blood tests, upper gastrointestinal endoscopy with biopsies and neuroimaging. With informed consent, a fMRI was accomplished before and in the beginning of a possession induced by exorcism performed by a Catholic priest.

Warning! They mention the name of the daemon in the article. I always thought this was a no-no :worry:
 
There are FMRI scans of a demonic possession:

Resting stated-tractography-fMRI in initial phase of spiritual possession - A case report

https://www.oatext.com/pdf/TiM-18-137.pdf

Objective: A cortical and subcortical area involved in a Functional Magnetic Resonance in a young woman in the first phase of a spiritual possession induced by an exorcism is presented. Background: Female 29 years of age, university student, from dysfunctional family. She began her suffering 11 years ago with personality dissociation, characterized by aversion to sacred objects and images, and psychomotor agitation with transient states of loss of consciousness with manifestations of spiritual possession that required psychiatric, and psychological treatment, and 5 exorcisms without improvement over a period of ten years. She is currently taking and has taken, clonazepam for ten years. Laboratory studies, EEG, brain scans (Computed tomography CT-scan) and Functional Magnetic Resonance (fMRI) reveal no evidence of organic or functional diseases. Methodology: The patient was initially evaluated by a psychologist, psychiatrist, neurosurgeon, and GI endoscopist, who excluded brain and gastrointestinal disorders, with complete medical record, blood tests, upper gastrointestinal endoscopy with biopsies and neuroimaging. With informed consent, a fMRI was accomplished before and in the beginning of a possession induced by exorcism performed by a Catholic priest.

Warning! They mention the name of the daemon in the article. I always thought this was a no-no :worry:
The report writers are operating from the point of view that demons and possession are real. They don't explain WHY they think anti-psychotics work to suppress the possessing demons though.
 
The report writers are operating from the point of view that demons and possession are real. They don't explain WHY they think anti-psychotics work to suppress the possessing demons though.
(Not seriously meant, but we could make a solid theory from this ...)
... anti psychotics close the neural pathway that connects this world to the other world, and so the daemons cannot access the victim temporarily ...
 
(Not seriously meant, but we could make a solid theory from this ...)
... anti psychotics close the neural pathway that connects this world to the other world, and so the daemons cannot access the victim temporarily ...
While brushing my teeth this morning (I'm weird like that) I realised we can elaborate on this theory:
Antipsychotics close the neural door between this world and the other world.
So the patient is still possessed, the daemon is still inside. But the daemon cannot reach the nervous system of the patient.
So the patient seems healed. But a real exorcism would still be necessary. :)
 
While brushing my teeth this morning (I'm weird like that) I realised we can elaborate on this theory:
Antipsychotics close the neural door between this world and the other world.
So the patient is still possessed, the daemon is still inside. But the daemon cannot reach the nervous system of the patient.
So the patient seems healed. But a real exorcism would still be necessary. :)
If antipsychotics close the neural door between the worlds, then all of us should routinely be prescribed same, as a prophylactic against wandering demons. Like taking anti-statins to ward off heart attacks in those of a certain age.
 
I think it would be most valuable to get such a possessed person and study them further.

As Prof Brian Cox said in response to questions on the supernatural, if spirits can exist in our universe, they must be a form of as yet not measured energy. This is because our current understanding of physics is such that energy on its own cannot maintain coherent structures, patterns or integrity.

Therefore, if such a possession is suspected, the person should immediately be loaded in a specially adapted chamber for the LHC, where they can be properly treated (bombarded) to see what new physics is revealed.

Exciting times.*






*Pun intended.
 
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