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SETI (Search For Extraterrestrial Intelligence): Compendium / Miscellaneous

I think Quake42 was joking. Frankly, if our fate is to involve a high tech race coming to Earth and obliterating us "War of the Worlds Style" then it's pretty short sighted to think keeping our heads down will save us!

I think it massively more likely that any race we encounter will be friend rather than foe. If they are hellbent on farming minerals to keep their race alive then space is full of enough uninhabitated locations to keep them in resources.

Besides, surely it's the case that any race who make a living of killing off other species will be much more advance than we are at detecting such species.
 
linesmachine said:
I think it massively more likely that any race we encounter will be friend rather than foe. If they are hellbent on farming minerals to keep their race alive then space is full of enough uninhabitated locations to keep them in resources.

Besides, surely it's the case that any race who make a living of killing off other species will be much more advance than we are at detecting such species.

I agree. We'd be dead already if there are hostile aliens out there looking for other species to kill off.

Joking a bit though, suppose there are sadistic aliens out there who want to keep slaves rather than use robots? :twisted:
 
Mythopoeika said:
suppose there are sadistic aliens out there who want to keep slaves rather than use robots? :twisted:

Hmm, depends on the terms and conditions. Weekends and bank holidays off? Healthcare and dental? I'd be an excellent slave to a higher inteligence; honest and hard working, good time organisational skills. Maybe they'd let us use the pool when they nip back to the home world.
 
linesmachine said:
Mythopoeika said:
suppose there are sadistic aliens out there who want to keep slaves rather than use robots? :twisted:

Hmm, depends on the terms and conditions. Weekends and bank holidays off? Healthcare and dental? I'd be an excellent slave to a higher inteligence; honest and hard working, good time organisational skills. Maybe they'd let us use the pool when they nip back to the home world.

You're being a tad optimistic. After using us as slaves, they may develop a taste for human flesh... :twisted:

But I jest. I think any civilisation that can send its people out among the stars may have some form of moral code.
 
Mythopoeika said:
But I jest. I think any civilisation that can send its people out among the stars may have some form of moral code.

Your above point is basically my interpretation of the situation. One might suggest it naive to make an assumption that intelligence leads to morality but I think that's MORE likely than the alternatives (which I'm happy to go through if anyone is interested).

But hey, if they are advanced enough to make it here with the intention of cutting the top off my skull and eating my brains with a spoon then...well I doubt I'll be able to put up much resistance. Maybe I'll just offer them a can opener and get it over with.
 
linesmachine said:
I think it massively more likely that any race we encounter will be friend rather than foe. If they are hellbent on farming minerals to keep their race alive then space is full of enough uninhabitated locations to keep them in resources.

True, our meat is all that might interest them, and it is unlikely that they would be interested in our meat (unless, like some occultists say, they are interested in something more subtle, but that would take us to an altogether different field).

linesmachine said:
Besides, surely it's the case that any race who make a living of killing off other species will be much more advance than we are at detecting such species.

I'm surprised that doom-bringers don't notice that (but well, that may be because they're doom bringers after all). Let's look at what we can already do in detecting extrasolar planets with our relatively primitive means. They would not need that we send them SETI radio-waves to detect them.

linesmachine said:
Your above point is basically my interpretation of the situation. One might suggest it naive to make an assumption that intelligence leads to morality but I think that's MORE likely than the alternatives (which I'm happy to go through if anyone is interested).

I would agree only with that part of the sentence : it's more LIKELY ; there's no certainty that they all evolve like that. That a sentient species has to to become internally altruistic to travel between the stars is probably inescapable. But that doesn't mean they would be well disposed towards other species.
If we restrict ourselves to the human kingdom, a society may be quite advanced morally internally, but remain agressive towards other societies. Although I am of opinion that there is a correlation between the degrees of internal and external moral developments, there is no absolute rule.
This is truer if we think of non-human species, like ants. They are the perfect example of completely altruistic animals, but agressive towards other species.

But all of this is of little importance, for the previous reasons. And if imperialist ETs had already found us, we simply couldn't have resisted them (let's forget rubbishy films like Independance day, Skyline and World invasion : battle Los Angeles).

Besides, Paul KIMBALL recently wrote two good articles on alien intelligence and human mind relations ( and why direct contact sholud be avoided at any cost) :
http://redstarfilms.blogspot.com/2011/0 ... ative.html
http://redstarfilms.blogspot.com/2011/0 ... eview.html
 
I think Quake42 was joking.

Yes and no. I just don't see any basis for statements like:

I think any civilisation that can send its people out among the stars may have some form of moral code.

If human history is anything to go the "moral code" of more technologically advanced societies rarely prevents them from enslaving and even wiping out less advanced cultures they come into contact with. There's no reason to assume aliens will behave any differently.
 
Quake42 said:
If human history is anything to go the "moral code" of more technologically advanced societies rarely prevents them from enslaving and even wiping out less advanced cultures they come into contact with. There's no reason to assume aliens will behave any differently.

That has not always been the case. The Chinese were trading with Eastern Africa in the 1400's and made no significant changes to the population or environment there, apart from leaving a few offspring.

But that's the exception rather than the rule, and I'm of the mind that if they aren't here to eat us, then we're getting in the way of what they really are here for.
 
Quake42 said:
If human history is anything to go the "moral code" of more technologically advanced societies rarely prevents them from enslaving and even wiping out less advanced cultures they come into contact with. There's no reason to assume aliens will behave any differently.

But then again, such societies were based on Earth, were human, and were restricted to the Earth in terms of their limit of control and influence. It was about control over Earth-based resources. Space-faring civilisations that can travel with few problems may not be so centred in such an outlook.

Unless, of course, we or the planet have something they definitely cannot acquire elsewhere... ;)
 
Mythopoeika said:
But I jest. I think any civilisation that can send its people out among the stars may have some form of moral code.

That's quite an assumption. What if they have a genetic structure different to ours? What if their DNA does not provide rewards for altruism?
What if their brains lack the the bits that provide emotions?
What if they developed the technology to travel the stars because they had no moral principles about testing on other species or even themselves?

That's before you consider the implications of several alien species who wish to nab our resources and the potentially disastrous impact of a conflict between them. You only have to look at the deaths caused in the Middle East as a result of our moral code and advanced technologies in the pursuit of oil.
 
Jerry_B said:
Unless, of course, we or the planet have something they definitely cannot acquire elsewhere... ;)
It is very unlikely that our planet holds any physical thing which cannot be found or manufactured elsewhere. We have the same elements as the rest of the universe, and it it easier to mine asteroids or the rings of Saturn for resources than to land on our planet, dig them up and take off again.

Similarly humans are unlikely to be edible for aliens, as we will have few biochemical compounds in common.

However we do have our own human culture and imaginations, the product of the most complex systems on our world (human minds). Advanced aliens might value the products of the human mind because of their unique and idiosyncratic qualities. Aliens might enjoy (or otherwise appreciate) human artworks, literature, movies, TV programs-

---oh yeah, they did this on Futurama didn't they? Single Female Lawyer and so on. That is the sort of thing I'm talking about. They might like Shakespeare and Aeschylus - or they might prefer X Factor and the Generation Game, not necessarily because they are good, but because of their novelty value.
 
Even if the aliens were not hostile, contact with a vastly more technologically advanced species may well be catastrophic to human culture.
 
What if they have the answer to God, live, the universe and everything? Would we really want to know? Could we handle the truth?

I'm sticking to the plan that when the aliens do land, we send a couple of cows dressed in milkmaids outfits, with the frilly hats and bloomers, and see what the aliens make of them. Hopefully once they realise that they can't make meaningful conversation, they'll jump back into their spaceships and head home.
 
los_grandes_lutz said:
What if they have the answer to God, live, the universe and everything? Would we really want to know? Could we handle the truth?

I can handle 42.

Well, at least for the next few months.
 
Donors help re-open mothballed telescopes searching for ET
By Judith Burns, Science reporter, BBC News

Telescopes looking for extra terrestrial intelligence should re-open within weeks after donors replaced income lost in public funding cuts.
The Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence (SETI) Institute, had to shut the $30m (£18.3m) Allen Telescope Array in April.
Donors, including actress Jodie Foster, raised more than $200,000 (£122,000).

The 42 radio telescopes, in northern California, search space for potential signals from alien life forms.
Ms Foster was one of more than 2,400 people who contributed to the fund to save the Allen Telescope Array. She played the lead role of an astronomer looking for evidence of aliens in the 1997 film Contact.
In a statement on the fund-raising website she explained her support: "The Allen Telescope Array could turn science fiction into science fact but only if it is actively searching the skies."
Another donor was the Apollo 8 astronaut, Bill Anders.

The SETI Institute says the fund should be enough to keep the telescopes operating until the end of the year, though the plan is still dependent on the institute receiving money from the US Air Force to track space debris that could damage satellites.

SETI Institute Astronomer Seth Shostak told BBC News, the deal with the Air Force is not yet done but he said he is fairly confident it will go through. Even then the money will need to be ratified by Congress and so there may be a delay. He hopes the array will re-open in September or October.

Thomas Pierson, SETI chief executive, agreed that a deal with the Air Force, combined with the donations, should allow the array to start listening for space chatter once again.
He said: "For those who are interested in understanding whether intelligent life might be out there elsewhere in our galaxy, the Allen Telescope Array and our SETI team doing the research are the best bet."

The array began operating in 2007 and is named after its major benefactor, Paul Allen, co-founder of Microsoft. It consists of 42 dish-shaped antennas which work as a single radio telescope.

It is part of the Hat Creek Radio Observatory, run by the University of California, Berkeley. Originally the array was a joint project between SETI Institute and the UC Berkeley Astronomy Laboratory but Berkeley had to pull out because of the loss of National Science Foundation grants and state budget cuts.

SETI is hoping to raise more money to contribute to the $2.5m (£1.5m) annual operating and staffing costs of the telescopes and keep them going beyond the end of this year. Ultimately the plan is to use the array to observe planets outside our own Solar System.

Mr Shostak said: "People still think this very fundamental question - is there somebody out there as intelligent or more so than us - is important and worth doing."

The array also contributes to research into black holes, pusars and magnetic fields in the Milky Way.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-14544953
 
its a bit odd to think that they are even looking ,
lets face it we as a race have only had this technology a very short while.
the maximum distance our first radio signals would have gotten isnt very far at all in the grand scheme of things
it would depend on another race doing the same at the same time/sooner than ourselves

highly unlikely

its more reasonably to beleve all this stuff was put toghter so govenments could use the equiptment to snoop on other countries.and use the seti thing to lie about it.

imho et would use light as method of communication

http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/10/ ... en-planet/

but that would fit in with the whole idea of what its really used for...
 
TinFinger_ said:
imho et would use light as method of communication

Or quantum entanglement, assuming that it truly does work over vast distances.

Edit: Yeah, the max for quantum teleportation is 16 km, but it may be possible to get more out of the technology...who knows...
 
Whatever Tesla detected, if anything, probably didn't come from Mars, that barren dusty ball covered in haematite blueberries.

This link from the Tesla Society suggests he was picking up e-m radiation from Jupiter;
http://www.teslasociety.com/mars.pdf
a remarkable feat for the time.
 
Whatever Tesla detected was also detected by Marconi and Todd.
If it was Jupiter the history of radio astronomy is seen in a different light.
The discovery of RA is usually accredited to Karl Jansky who in fact never did any RA after the initial hiss was detected.
As is the custom, the true pioneer is ignored and Grote Reber's contribution is played-down in the Wiki article, he having made the first all-sky map (1941) before any interest was shown by academic astronomers. Tesla, Marconi and Todd never even get a mention in this area.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_astronomy#History
Before Jansky observed the Milky Way in the 1930s, physicists speculated that radio waves could be observed from astronomical sources. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_astronomy#History
A typical example of the way history is altered to suit the agenda of the writer:
1940's Theory
"Reber found that the radio power was weaker at higher frequencies, contrary to what was predicted by the (then, 1940's) theory of thermal radiation. This theory applies to the light from stars or any hot object such as molten iron or stove burners, and predicts that the radio emission increases at higher frequencies. But Reber found just the opposite relation for the Milky Way. Some other, "non-thermal", process had to be at work.
It was not until the 1950s that a Russian physicist, V.L.Ginzburg, worked out the theory of synchrotron radiation, which explains the observed radio spectrum."
http://www.nrao.edu/whatisra/hist_reber.shtml

James Stanley Hey FRS[1] (Nelson, Lancashire, 3 May 1909 - 27 February 2000 ) was an English physicist and radio astronomer. With the targeted application of radar technology for astronomical research, he lay the basis for the development of radio astronomy . He discovered that the Sun radiates radio waves (1946) and localized for the first time an extragalactic radio source in the constellation Cygnus.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J.S._Hey
There is surely a continuity problem here?
Every revolutionary idea seems to evoke three stages of reaction (by scientists).
They may be summed up by the phrases:
1- It's completely impossible.
2- It's possible, but it's not worth doing.
3- I said it was a good idea all along."
Arthur C. Clarke
An addition to Clarke's list, 'We thought of it first'.

See also:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grote_Reber
 
I just caught the last 15 minutes of 'Ocean Giants' on the BBC, we have sentient beings that share the earth with us, we cannot communicate with them, I'm not sure how much luck we would have in communicating with a completely alien species. I do think UFO's are real, I wonder if we will ever have real contact and communication.
 
If you have 2 races of sentient beings who have technology, that should make it easier to find enough common ground and enable an interpretation to be made.

Whales and dolphins are intelligent, but they have no means to learn our language. Humans have managed to analyse and generally interpret some of what whales and dolphins are saying, but it's usually simple stuff like 'danger-swim away' and 'I'm looking for a mate'. They don't put together a multitude of words and sentences like we do (apparently). That makes them sufficiently alien that we may never be able to establish a dialogue properly.
 
Curiously enough, the dolphins had long known of the impending destruction of the planet Earth and had made many attempts to alert mankind of the danger; but most of their communications were misinterpreted as amusing attempts to punch footballs or whistle for tidbits, so they eventually gave up and left the Earth by their own means shortly before the Vogons arrived.
 
I think the ability to communicate, understand and anticipate even fairly abstract concepts between humans and other animals is often underestimated.
 
We need to talk about aliens
The more we consider the possible consequences of contact with an alien intelligence, the better prepared we will be
Alan Penny
Honorary reader in the School of Physics and Astronomy at the University of St Andrews, using the Lofar telescope to search for low-frequency radio signals from ET


[...]

Ever since 1960 with the first serious search for radio transmissions from other civilisations (known as Seti, the Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence), scientists have been thinking about what would happen if evidence for ET were found. Examples of their efforts include the 2010 Royal Society conference on "The detection of extra-terrestrial life and the consequences for science and society".

Last week the Guardian reported on a recent paper led by Seth Baum of Pennsylvania State University on this topic, categorising some of the possible consequences – ranging from beneficial through neutral to harmful.

So what's the point? We have never seen these Little Green Men, so why expend effort thinking about what might happen?

Scientists have already had to face this problem in real life. An early occasion was in 1967 when astronomers at Cambridge University using a new radio telescope detected regular blips coming from deep space. They were puzzled because no known source should do that. One possible explanation was ET and the director of the group, Nobel prizewinner Sir Martin Ryle, suggested that they should keep quiet about their discovery and dismantle the telescope, because if it was ET then sooner or later someone on Earth would start signalling back, alerting a possibly evil-minded alien intelligence to our existence.

Fortunately, they soon concluded that it was a natural source – they had in fact discovered pulsars. But there is a continuing controversy in the Seti community about whether it is wise to try and contact ET by sending out messages. For example, the main Seti searchers have agreed a protocol for how to spread the news if and when they discover ET, but have not yet been able to agree a common position on the wisdom of sending out messages.

The main problem is the nature of ETs. What are they like? To be able to influence us, they must be more advanced than us, so will they be wise and benevolent, since otherwise they would have destroyed themselves by now? Or perhaps as a result of a Hobbesian all-against-all struggle the only ET now out there has become dominant by destroying any potential competitors. But even if they were evil would they be able to get at us given the vast distances between the stars?

And it goes wider. Is it wise even to use our radio telescopes to try and detect ET? In 1962 the famous astronomer Fred Hoyle and John Elliot dramatised the risk in a TV series "A for Andromeda" starring Julie Christie. A message from ET was detected which turned out to contain instructions for building a computer. After this was assembled it set about destroying the human race, before being thwarted by the scientist hero.

Considering dangers like that, and applying the precautionary principle, should we shut down all our Seti searches?

Can we tell anything about ET that would guide us, first of all in deciding whether to search at all, then in matching our searches to its nature, and finally in whether to send out signals? My own position, as I argued in a paper presented at the Royal Society Kavli Centre last year, is that our total ignorance about the nature of ET means that we cannot say whether listening or talking is good or bad.

For example, sending a message may cause an evil ET to come and destroy us. Alternatively it may preserve us from destruction by an ET that has become aware of us from seeing our cities and is worried by the aggressive nature of new civilisations, but would be reassured by the peaceful content of a message.

We cannot tell which of the many possible benefits and dangers are more likely, and so we Seti folk can go about our business without reproach. But the more thinking, such as the Baum paper, we do about possible outcomes, the better prepared we may be for the actual outcome after the day of discovery, if and when it ever comes.

It may be good to do this, but is it worth spending real money on? Well, in fact very little money is spent on Seti. There are probably about the equivalent of 20 full-time people worldwide working on Seti, most funded from private sources, together with a little money from individual universities, supplemented with a very small amount from governments. And like all high-tech work it has spinoffs, most noticeably the Berkeley Boing distributed computing system which started as Seti@home, but is now used widely from biotechnology to meteorology. Seti is used as part of university teaching in the sciences, and it provokes thinking in allied sciences from sociology to linguistics.

Regardless of the chances of success, Seti is of real value. But here in the UK, practically no private or government money goes into it. With around 0.5% of the government funds that now go into astronomy (the 1-in-200 effort, I call it) the UK could make a big splash in the Seti world.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/blog/ ... ce-contact
 
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