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Space Exploration / Space Flight: Manned

Well, a short trip into high Earth orbit gives great bragging rights to multimillionaires, worried about how to conspicuousy spend their cash.
 
Trevp666 said:
The tourism thing is 'Virgin Galactic'.
Bit of a misnomer really cos it only goes up just into space, and then comes back down again.
I'd be both surprised and horrified if I booked onto a flight and after lift off they told me that I wouldn't be back for 500 years (or however long it would take to get to the nearest galaxy and back).
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It's even debatable whether the Virgin rocket-plane even reaches space.
None of the Virgin Galactic flights have come anywhere close to the Kármán line.
The X-15 spy plane flew higher than Branson's aircraft.
 
Classic corporate branding, though.
Own lots of subsidiaries - with independent rules, oversight, financial assets etc. - all under The Big Red Brand to identify the Bearded Okay Guy ... and if any bit goes pear-shaped then deniabilty of personal involvement. "If it's brilliant, it's ME. If it's lousy, it's someone I employed."
The other model is swamping the area with lots of subsidiaries, with very different and unrelated names and hope that any major screw-up avoids connection to the ultimate owner e.g. Sam Banking Fraud of FTX fame. "If it's brilliant, I earn gazillions. If it's lousy, it has nothing to do with me."
 
Stormkhan said:
Classic corporate branding, though.
Own lots of subsidiaries - with independent rules, oversight, financial assets etc. - all under The Big Red Brand to identify the Bearded Okay Guy ... and if any bit goes pear-shaped then deniabilty of personal involvement. "If it's brilliant, it's ME. If it's lousy, it's someone I employed."
The other model is swamping the area with lots of subsidiaries, with very different and unrelated names and hope that any major screw-up avoids connection to the ultimate owner e.g. Sam Banking Fraud of FTX fame. "If it's brilliant, I earn gazillions. If it's lousy, it has nothing to do with me."
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It's also a way of shifting money around. If one of the companies looks like failing, money and other assets can be stripped out before bankruptcy. Also a way of tax dodging, I think.
 
Trevp666 said:
The tourism thing is 'Virgin Galactic'.
Bit of a misnomer really cos it only goes up just into space, and then comes back down again.
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Stormkhan said:
Well, a short trip into high Earth orbit gives great bragging rights to multimillionaires, worried about how to conspicuousy spend their cash.
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Yes, as @blessmycottonsocks said, Virgin Galactic doesn't qualify as space travel by many standards. It also doesn't orbit - or was Stormkhan referring to something else?

It really ticks me off when companies use words that have only limited technical meanings (like galactic) in wildly incorrect ways, even if it's just a brand name. Another is SpaceX's Starship, which will not travel to other stars. To be honest I also think cosmonaut is a better word than astronaut, but I've given up on that one.
 
ChasFink said:
Yes, as @blessmycottonsocks said, Virgin Galactic doesn't qualify as space travel by many standards. It also doesn't orbit - or was Stormkhan referring to something else?
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I was referring, generally, to the vehicle's altitude. I always thought it was just inside high orbit and, therefore, qualifying as 'in space' i.e. outside the Earth's atmosphere.
 
Stormkhan said:
I was referring, generally, to the vehicle's altitude. I always thought it was just inside high orbit and, therefore, qualifying as 'in space' i.e. outside the Earth's atmosphere.
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Exactly where the atmosphere ends is a matter of debate and arbitrary definition. The air just keeps getting thinner. The most widely accepted height for the sake of definition is the Kármán line at 100 kilometers above sea level. This would be a very low orbit, and Virgin Galactic doesn't even get there.

An orbit would be sustained movement circling the Earth without sustained propulsion, and Virgin Galactic definitely doesn't do that, either.
 
blessmycottonsocks said:
It's even debatable whether the Virgin rocket-plane even reaches space.
None of the Virgin Galactic flights have come anywhere close to the Kármán line.
The X-15 spy plane flew higher than Branson's aircraft.
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According to wikipedia, SpaceshipOne flew above the Karman line three times though one of those was marginal. The X-15 exceeded 80km 13 times but only two of those went over 100km. SpaceshipTwo, the one-day-maybe passenger carrying plane has flown four times so far, each time to between 80 and 90km.
 
I thought that they described an orbit as 'constantly falling, but with a forward momentum so great that you maintain the same height relative to the earths surface' or words to that effect?
 
Trevp666 said:
I thought that they described an orbit as 'constantly falling, but with a forward momentum so great that you maintain the same height relative to the earths surface' or words to that effect?
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That's what I meant. An orbit isn't just being in space, it's a relatively stable cycle of motion, balancing momentum and gravity as you describe. Once established it doesn't require the persistent expenditure of energy the way driving around town - or launching a rocket - does.

Aside from simple circular/elliptical orbits, there are more complicated types of orbit (at least from certain perspectives) that can happen if more than one large planetary body is concerned. The Artemis 1 mission orbited the Moon, but from another perspective it orbited Earth at about the distance of the Moon, passing the Moon while closer to us and falling behind it when further away.
 
Well, strictly speaking Virgin Orbit/Space/Galactic might not be labelled within the definition of some words, but the most important thing is that they've hit rough road to promote their leader, "King" Richard, in the billionaire club.
After all, it's quibbling over definitions.
 
Stormkhan said:
Well, strictly speaking Virgin Orbit/Space/Galactic might not be labelled within the definition of some words, but the most important thing is that they've hit rough road to promote their leader, "King" Richard, in the billionaire club.
After all, it's quibbling over definitions.
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You're right, but the huge difference between Bezos' Blue Origin fairly traditional rocket and space capsule way to space and Branson's rocket-plane, that cannot really outperform the 1960s X-15 spy-plane, is astonishing.
 
If that doesn't work properly, it's going to make one heck of a mess!
 
It's been postponed. Hopefully, they'll launch ASAP.
 
They canned it and opted for a WDR instead.
My guess is that they'll de-tank, check the business parts, and then we'll see another go at it probably Friday.
Flight restrictions in the area issued by FAA are in force for several days.
 
Disappointing that there will be at least a 48 hour hiatus, but obviously they need to get this right if it's going to fly astronauts to the Moon in a couple of years.
 
blessmycottonsocks said:
I want to see a Moonbase and people on Mars in my lifetime, so fingers crossed!
Just look at how one failed space launch killed off Spaceport Cornwall.
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Though I too would love that to happen in my lifetime, I'm somewhat cynical in that with the landing being a 'commercial venture' - sure, it's in partnership with NASA etc. but ... really? - I can see the egos of Musk and Bezos claiming Mars as their own commercial property.
 
Stormkhan said:
Though I too would love that to happen in my lifetime, I'm somewhat cynical in that with the landing being a 'commercial venture' - sure, it's in partnership with NASA etc. but ... really? - I can see the egos of Musk and Bezos claiming Mars as their own commercial property.
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But it's this very commercial rivalry that has provided some impetus to this new space race.
 
Next launch attempt between 8:30and 9:30 CDT 2:30 and 3:30 UK time on the 20th
 
blessmycottonsocks said:
But it's this very commercial rivalry that has provided some impetus to this new space race.
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I take your point but it's this rivalry and avarice that is going to 'spoil' it all.
Shouldn't there be some form of consensus of jurisdiction put into place before it happens? A multi-billionaire pays for the first Mars landing then outright declares it as his own! There's no treaty or legal system to say otherwise. So ... yay for humankind to get to Mars; only now it's private property and only those scientific organisations who can afford the fees will benefit. Interplanetary capitalism.
The original space race was done initially for political reasons, true, but it showed a goal that was reachable for science. Giving private entrepreneurs the keys to Mars isn't allowing all mankind to benefit; only the truly wealthy.
It's a space version of the ends justifies the means? How? You are giving more 'stuff' to people who want to either keep it for themselves or sell parts of it.
 
Stormkhan said:
I take your point but it's this rivalry and avarice that is going to 'spoil' it all.
Shouldn't there be some form of consensus of jurisdiction put into place before it happens? A multi-billionaire pays for the first Mars landing then outright declares it as his own! There's no treaty or legal system to say otherwise. So ... yay for humankind to get to Mars; only now it's private property and only those scientific organisations who can afford the fees will benefit. Interplanetary capitalism.
The original space race was done initially for political reasons, true, but it showed a goal that was reachable for science. Giving private entrepreneurs the keys to Mars isn't allowing all mankind to benefit; only the truly wealthy.
It's a space version of the ends justifies the means? How? You are giving more 'stuff' to people who want to either keep it for themselves or sell parts of it.
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The way I see it, this is how exploration has always taken place (e.g. the Age of Discovery). The first thing is to get out there, then things will settle down into jurisdictions, application of law, etc. On the bright side, there are no native populations to be cowed or eliminated, so exploration won't be as bloodthirsty as earthbound examples, and the environment is so hostile that cooperation between competing interests will be likely to develop unofficially on neighbouring distant settlements, once they are established.
 
Stormkhan said:
I take your point but it's this rivalry and avarice that is going to 'spoil' it all.
Shouldn't there be some form of consensus of jurisdiction put into place before it happens? A multi-billionaire pays for the first Mars landing then outright declares it as his own! There's no treaty or legal system to say otherwise. So ... yay for humankind to get to Mars; only now it's private property and only those scientific organisations who can afford the fees will benefit. Interplanetary capitalism.
The original space race was done initially for political reasons, true, but it showed a goal that was reachable for science. Giving private entrepreneurs the keys to Mars isn't allowing all mankind to benefit; only the truly wealthy.
It's a space version of the ends justifies the means? How? You are giving more 'stuff' to people who want to either keep it for themselves or sell parts of it.
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Your above points were the storyline for an excellent fiction novel with comedy elements called 'STARK' written by Ben Elton.

*****************spoiler***************

... we find out towards the end that STARK actually stands for Star Ark, a ship that's been built for billionaires by billionaires so they can escape Earth after destroying it through greed. The book's actually a lot funnier than I'm making it sound.
 
If I had the money, and spaceflights became routine for paying passengers within my lifetime, I would deffo go up in a rocket (or spaceplane or whatever).
Even better if we all got flying cars which were capable of doing it. Then all the other forms of transport would be obsolete. Except maybe horses.
 
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