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St. George: Roman Dragon Slayer?

MrRING

MrRING

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I was just reading about a new film version that is coming out about GEORGE AND THE DRAGON when I saw this interesting bit at GREG'S PREVIEWS:

Setting Note:

3/12/02 - There appears to be disagreement about when St. George existed, as this film portrays him as being a 12th century knight, even though the first references to him date back much farther, to the 3rd century, when he was reportedly a Roman officer during Diocletian's (245-313 AD) reign. The connection to England of the time portrayed in this film is that St. George reportedly talked to King Richard the Lionhearted, encouraging him in his battles, and the fact that he became the Patron Saint of England.

So is this true that the legend of an English George who slayed a dragon is based on a story much older? Wha's the real deal (as far as we can determine)?

The other odd thing is, I remember reading somewhere that the idea of a large reptile being able to live in the English climate made the story seem fictional to many... but if he didn't even meet the dragon in Enland, maybe that would add some validity to a dragon-as-reptile of some kind theory...
 
It should be noted that St. George is also the patron Saint of Catalonia (Barcalona etc.) and he never actually came to England.
 
IIRC, he didn't exist at all, and any references to dragons are based on some sort of Latin pun. Various other details were outlined in the 'On This Day' section of this sites front page back on St. George's Day.
 
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The story that you mentioned is facinating; it almost sounds like demonic possesion with the terrible smells; and the fact that communications were carried on with it sounds a little like the Bell Witch (as does the creature having a mysterous shape as it crawled away - was the only one who saw it's true form St. George?)... it makes you wonder what it was that he slew.

It would be great to find the earliest written version of this event and see how it was described. It also occurs
 
He was adopted by the british crusaders, IIRC, possibly because he was a local warrior saint to where they were fighting? But I don't think he was adopted as the patron saint of england until later.

What other monster-slayers does british mythology provide us with?

I can think of Beowulf, Tristan ( thought I don't know for sure that is a british story) and Lord Lambton off the top of my head- anyone know of any other british stories matching the St George pattern that perhaps St George could have been added into?
 
Wasn't Beowulf a Norse (Viking) legend?
 
Breakfast said:
He was adopted by the british crusaders, IIRC, possibly because he was a local warrior saint to where they were fighting? But I don't think he was adopted as the patron saint of england until later.

What other monster-slayers does british mythology provide us with?

I can think of Beowulf, Tristan ( thought I don't know for sure that is a british story) and Lord Lambton off the top of my head- anyone know of any other british stories matching the St George pattern that perhaps St George could have been added into?
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Worminster near Wells in Somerset has a worm/dragon legend mentioned here.
 
IIRC, the outside of the village church at Stoke-sub-Hamdon (Somerset) has an old simplistic carving of a figure with a spear attacking a worm-like creature. I seem to recall that it dates from the Saxon period. I haven't been there for a very long time, so the details are hazy (knowing me I've probably got the wrong village...)
 
Mythopoeika said:
Wasn't Beowulf a Norse (Viking) legend?
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No. Although much of it happens in Denmark it is believed an entirely Anglo-saxon narrative- I think it is the only pre-christian saxon myth to have survived until the modern day.
 
I always understood that the 'George & the Dragon' story was basically just an update of the Perseus legend: kingdom being ravished by a monster; King's daughter to be sacrificed to the monster; dashing young hero (Perseus/George) arrives just in the nick of time, kills monster, saves the Princess.....
 
Here is a bit more detail on George (source):
Who was Saint George?

The life of Saint George is shrouded in legend, so much so that it is quite difficult to untangle fact from fiction. Much of the problem lies in the Acta Sancti Georgii (Acts of Saint George) written at a very early date and outlawed by Pope Gelasius in AD 496. Meanwhile the Greeks also had a set of Acts which were more accurate and quoted by Saint Andrew of Crete.

From them and the writings of Metaphrastes, we can piece together that he was born in Cappadocia of noble, Christian parents and on the death of his father, accompanied his mother to Palestine, her country of origin, where she had land and George was to run the estate. He was martyred at Lydda in Palestine (Nicomedia). He held an important post in the Roman army - the rank of tribune, or perhaps colonel in modern terms - during the reign of the Emperor Diocletian (245-313). Dioclesian was a great persecutor of Christians (from about 302) and when the persecutions began George put aside his office and complained personally to the Emperor of the harshness of his decrees and the dreadful purges of Christians. For his trouble, though, he was thrown into prison and tortured. He would not recant his faith however and the following day he was dragged through the streets and beheaded. It is uncertain whether he also tore down the Emperor's decrees as they were posted in Nicomedia. So he was one of the first to perish. The Emperor's wife, Alexandria was so impressed at the Saint's courage that she became a Christian and so too was put to death for her trouble.

The Legends
The legends surrounding Saint George are very varied. One of them concerns the famous dragon, with which he is invariably portrayed. According to legend, a pagan town in Libya was being terrorised by a dragon. The locals kept throwing sheep to it to placate it, and when it still remained unsatisfied, they started sacrificing some of the citizenry. Finally the local princess was to be thrown also to the beast, but Good Saint George came along, slaughtered the dragon and rescued the fair princess. At this the townsfolk converted to Christianity.

The origin of the legend, which is very well known, came originally from the way in which the Greek Church honoured George. They venerated him as a soldier saint and told many stories of his bravery and protection in battle. The western Christians, joining with the Byzantine Christians in the Crusades, elaborated and misinterpreted the Greek traditions and devised their own version. The story we know today of Saint George and the dragon dates from the troubadours of the 14th century.

The reason for his being adoped as the Saint of Battles was partly because he was a soldier, but also because he is said to have appeared to the Christian army before the Battle of Antioch. It is also said that he appeared to our English King Richard I (the Lionheart) during his Crusade against the Saracens, which served as a great encouragement to the troops.
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I find it quite interesting that the dragon story is a medieval interpretation, which explains why it is so similar to various other middle-ages dragon-killer type stories.

It does seem that saints are very handy to have around when one is confronted by large angry cryptids...
 
As today is St George's Day, a topical story:

England's most patriotic town?
By Sallie George
BBC News

The banners, flags and bunting went up weeks ago, and across the market town of Morley in West Yorkshire, residents have been holding their biggest St George's celebrations to date.

Not content with flying the flag for just one day, an entire weekend was given over this year to celebrating England's national day.

The programme of events alone stretched to three pages long, and 10,000 were distributed to schools, shops and homes to encourage people to join the show of patriotism.

In the local park, the England flag flies high, and flowers in the colours of the St George's cross have even been planted in a nearby flowerbed.

On Sunday, hundreds of people watched St George riding on horseback through the town, leading an annual parade, followed by a longbow competition at the town's rugby club.

So is Morley England's most patriotic town?

Local resident Paul Cockcroft, 41, who helped to organise the weekend festival, is certain it is.

"As far as I know, we have the largest event of its kind in the country," he said.

"That was what we were aiming for.

"A month before the event, we had the whole town covered in bunting from head to toe, so it looked like VE day.

"When people came into the town and saw all the bunting, they stopped their cars and said, 'what is going on here?'"

Mr Cockcroft said organisers believed about 10,000 people had visited the town during the weekend of patriotic celebration.

"It shows the sense of passion that people have for celebrating St George's Day," he said.

Joe Tetley, chairman of the Leeds branch of the Society of St George, said Morley was committed to holding the annual festival, which began in the town five years ago and has grown in size every year.

He said: "Irish people go crackers on St Patrick's Day, and the Scottish are the same. It's just a case that we think St George's Day should be celebrated.

"I think people have suddenly realised we don't have a national day, so we have started bothering about it and putting it forward.

"Events like we have had in Morley have really taken off.

"Local people have said it is the biggest event they have seen in Morley since the Queen came in 1954."

The town was intensely proud of its festival and had resisted offers to move the events to the neighbouring city of Leeds, Mr Tetley added.

"It is a Morley event and it stays in Morley - that is non-negotiable," he said.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7351194.stm
 
Paul Kendall: St George's Day blood and bravery
Last Updated: 12:02am BST 23/04/2008

A new book by Paul Kendall commemorates an heroic raid in 1918

The sailors at Chatham dockyard had a name for the men preparing for the Zeebrugge Raid. The "Suicide Club", they called them. Events were to prove it a bloodily accurate title.

The British are often accused of wallowing in their wartime exploits, but the operation to block the heavily defended, German-held Belgian ports of Zeebrugge and Ostend on St George's Day 1918, thus denying their use to the U-boats ravaging Allied shipping, is barely remembered. There will, however, be a few people commemorating the 90th anniversary of the raid today.

In the face of withering fire at Zeebrugge, a few thousand men of the Royal Marines and Royal Navy attempted to silence German batteries and scuttle blockships filled with concrete in the entrance to the ports. More than 600 men were killed or wounded.

.............

The Zeebrugge Raid was at best a partial success. A month later the U-boats were again using the port at high tide - a channel having been created around the sunken blockships. Before the attack, Keyes signalled from his flagship, "St George for England", receiving Vindictive's reply, "May we give the dragon's tail a damn good twist."

The men of Zeebrugge did that, at least.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/portal/main. ... rge123.xml
[/quote]
 
Thieves steal flag of St George

Thieves have stolen the Cross of St George from a meteorological station in Cornwall, police said.

The English flag was being flown from the station in Egue Gaberaic Way, Bude, to celebrate St George's Day.

It was stolen sometime between 0900 and 1000 BST - within an hour of it being hoisted.

Police said the suspect was wearing a red waterproof jacket with blue collar and cuffs and have appealed for witnesses to contact them.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cornwall/7363571.stm

Damn Cornish nationalists, I'd guess.... :evil:
 
rjmrjmrjm said:
What's their flag then? A tricolour with a pasty?
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:D

The flag of St Piran, actually: white cross on a black ground.
 
rynner said:
rjmrjmrjm said:
What's their flag then? A tricolour with a pasty?
Click to expand...
:D

The flag of St Piran, actually: white cross on a black ground.
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St Piran, Patron Saint of tin miners, pirates, wreckers and saffron cake bakers. ;)
 
For George And Palestine! Images and full text at link.

Why St George is a Palestinian hero

As England celebrates the day of its patron saint, many Palestinians are gearing up for their own forthcoming celebrations of the figure they also regard as a hero.

A familiar flag flaps in the wind above a Palestinian church in the West Bank village of al-Khadr.

The red cross on a white background has been associated with Saint George since the time of the Crusades.

It is the national flag of England and is also used as an emblem by other countries and cities that have adopted him as their own patron saint.

However, Palestinians have particular reason to display the symbol and revere the early Christian martyr. For them he is a local hero who opposed the persecution of his fellow Christians in the Holy Land.

"We believe he was a great martyr for his faith who defended the Christian faith and values," says Greek Orthodox Archbishop Atallah Hanna.

The flag of St George flying against a blue sky
The St George's flag flies above a Palestinian church
"By making sacrifices for his faith he was able to defeat evil. We take St George as a patron for people living here - and as he was born in historic Palestine, we pray to him to remember us and this holy land."

St George was a Roman soldier during the Third Century AD, when the Emperor Diocletian was in power. It is said that he once lived in al-Khadr near Bethlehem, on land owned by his mother's family.

While the saint's father is usually traced back to Cappadocia, an area in modern Turkey, it is believed his mother was Palestinian from Lydda - now Lod, in Israel.

The saint is remembered for giving away his possessions and remaining true to his religion when he was imprisoned and tortured before he was finally executed.

There are many churches in the West Bank and Israel that bear the name of St George - at al-Khadr, Lod and in the Galilee, for example.

While the Western world marks St George's Day on 23 April, in the Palestinian areas it falls on 6 May, according to the older calendar used by the Eastern Churches.

A service is held for the saint at al-Khadr, bringing worshippers from the Bethlehem area and much further afield to light candles and say prayers. During the feast, special bread is baked that shows him in his typical pose as a dragon slaye.
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-27048219
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Vardoger said:
Was the "dragon" a crocodile?
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Almost certainly.

What better way to celebrate Englishness than to venerate someone born in what is now Turkey, who killed an oversized Nile Crocodile, whilst serving with the Roman Legions in North Africa?
 
Breakfastologist said:
He was adopted by the british crusaders, IIRC, possibly because he was a local warrior saint to where they were fighting? But I don't think he was adopted as the patron saint of england until later.

What other monster-slayers does british mythology provide us with?

I can think of Beowulf, Tristan ( thought I don't know for sure that is a british story) and Lord Lambton off the top of my head- anyone know of any other british stories matching the St George pattern that perhaps St George could have been added into?
Click to expand...
There is a list i made of UK dragon legends some years ago. I uncovered more since i made the list. I cant recall if i posted it on here before. Apologies if i have.
http://foolishpeople.typepad.com/foolishpeople/2005/11/british_dragon_.html
 
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