Suicide In Our Modern Context

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#1
This thread is being initiated to hold a growing tangential discussion originating in the Jordan Peterson thread:
https://forums.forteana.org/index.php?threads/jordan-peterson.65204/

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Suicide is still the single biggest killer of young British men, and as for Ireland (where 80% of suicides are men) and NI, it's grim (google is your friend). So anyone who provides some hope and clarity to young and middle aged men might be applauded for it.
 
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GNC

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#2
Suicide is still the single biggest killer of young British men, and as for Ireland (where 80% of suicides are men) and NI, it's grim (google is your friend). So anyone who provides some hope and clarity to young and middle aged men might be applauded for it.
The trouble is, the far right is providing hope of a false kind to young and middle-aged white men, since that's what happens when they get told they're the enemy from all sides. If you didn't think you were racist, sexist, a potential (maybe actual) rapist, a violent offender and all that other antisocial stuff before, there are plenty of people willing to embrace you because you've started to believe it yourself now. You take umbrage, or you feel ashamed. Those taking umbrage cause trouble for others, those feeling ashamed opt for self-destruction. ...
 
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INT21

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#3
Suicide is still the single biggest killer of young British men, and as for Ireland (where 80% of suicides are men) and NI, it's grim (google is your friend). So anyone who provides some hope and clarity to young and middle aged men might be applauded for it.
One could ask why British young men think this is the way out.

Why are they incapable of adapting to the modern way of life in the UK.

Is it possibly because thay have been brought up with unrealistic expectations of what life should give them without them actually having to make an effort to attaine it ?

INT21
 
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#4
Is it possibly because thay have been brought up with unrealistic expectations of what life should give them without them actually having to make an effort to attaine it ?
In some sense this might be true. I'd hazard a guess that we have spent a few too many years telling our young folk, that if only they trust in themselves, believe in their dreams and follow their star they can be anything they want and will be happy.

The trouble is, happiness is not an attainable goal, not everyone is even capable of being what they want to be and even so, you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things...

However, it may be more complex than this.

(Apologies to the great Sir T. Pratchett)
 

Amoradala

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#5
And arguably the vogue for females blaming them and the 'toxic patriarchy' for stopping their equally impossible and unattainable goals.
 

AlchoPwn

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#6
One could ask why British young men think this is the way out. Why are they incapable of adapting to the modern way of life in the UK. Is it possibly because thay have been brought up with unrealistic expectations of what life should give them without them actually having to make an effort to attaine it ? INT21
On the contrary, suicide is up across the board. The main difference is that women attempt suicide more frequently, often 3-4 times more than men but choose ineffective methods to carry it out such as poisoning, and slitting their wrists. Men however opt for the use of firearms, and so their rate of successful suicide is nearly double that of women https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_differences_in_suicide

So basically INT21 you are being grossly unfair to young men today. When lads set themselves a goal, they are still going about it in a more practical and efficient fashion than women attempting the same task, and achieving more reliable rates of completion.
:truce::reap::died::twothumbs:

(As a very old goth, my subculture jokes about suicide quite a lot)
 
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INT21

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#7
Or one could say that it is further proof (as if it was needed) that men are simply more efficient than women in most respects.

Maybe women are just attention seeking.

INT21.
 

INT21

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#9
Waiting for the responses first. I'm sure the fairer sex will not let that one past without at least a raised eyebrow.
 

Yithian

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#10
Waiting for the responses first. I'm sure the fairer sex will not let that one past without at least a raised eyebrow.
You realise, I assume, that a large proportion of our membership is female?

Could you possibly drop the misogyny? It's completely out of place.
 

EnolaGaia

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#11
... So basically INT21 you are being grossly unfair to young men today. When lads set themselves a goal, they are still going about it in a more practical and efficient fashion than women attempting the same task, and achieving more reliable rates of completion. ...
I don't dispute the notion that males may be more proficient at 'getting it done', but I also don't think it's as one-dimensional as that ...

On the one hand, there could well be gender differences in access to means of self-destruction. For example, firearm ownership / access / familiarity is generally higher for males than females. How many females know how to tie an effective noose?

I suspect there's a significant aspect to all this that pertains to the ends (deciding to kill oneself) more than the means. To the extent the many surveys / analyses done on this have identified gender-related differences, the cited differences have more to do with socio-cultural factors (roles, stressors, expectations, etc.) impinging on the decision than the performance of the act.
 

INT21

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#12
Yithian,

Your sense of humour is due for an overhaul; it seems to have stopped working.

I hardly consider the remark misogynistic.

Or are females becoming like gays and blacks, something that cannot be discussed in any form without it being considered a form of attack.

Anyway, to any female member, I offer an apology in advance.

INT21.
 

INT21

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#13
Enola Gaia,

My remark was a direct response to AlchoPwn's comment on the greater efficiency of men.

Looks as if it bombed out.
 

Amoradala

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#14
You realise, I assume, that a large proportion of our membership is female?

Could you possibly drop the mysogyny? It's completely out of place.
Many women would consider they’re quite able fight their own battles Yith, and this display of ‘white night’ masculinity is indicative of your long held endemic sexism. ;)
 

INT21

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#15
Getting back to the original.

One cause could be that young men are simply finding it harder to find gainful employment. And they are not stupid, they can see how the future is going to pan out. Add this to the constant bombardment of the media portraying alpha males with Ferrari s, exquisitely perfect mates (male or female) and all the things that they can never realistically hope ot attain, and you have the makings of terminal depression.

'I'm never going to make it', so why bother with all the anguish; just end it now.

This is a product of our £1000 cell phone etc society. It shows the very worst side of modern life.

INT21.
 

EnolaGaia

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#16
One could ask why British young men think this is the way out.
Why are they incapable of adapting to the modern way of life in the UK.
Is it possibly because thay have been brought up with unrealistic expectations of what life should give them without them actually having to make an effort to attaine it ?
I would say it's not just in the UK, and it's not just young men.

Your allusions to unrealistic expectations and overestimated ease of acquiring benefits resonate with what I've seen in all members of younger generations here in the USA.

A host of innovations and changes in the last 3 decades have synergistically interacted to allow people to encapsulate themselves within a bubble of relative obliviousness. If and when that bubble bursts upon contact with 'reality', the psychic / emotional impact seems to be far worse than it was for those of us who had to deal with life's rough edges earlier or longer.
 

INT21

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#17
All the suicides, with one exception, that I have known, have been related to drug use.

It is fairly easy to see how the two can be connected. Particularly when the user realise that he/she wants to quit, but doesn't have the strength of will to do so.

The odd one out was a fellow cab driver. He clipped a child who had run out from behind a bus. Entirely the childs fault, and he wasn't hurt; just shaken. I was just behind when it happened and took the child home to his mother.

But for some reason it prayed on the drivers mind. He couldn't accept that not only was the child unhurt, but that it wasn't his fault.

He had hit a child. That was all he could see.

One day he hung himself in his garage.

INT21.
 

Ladyloafer

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#18
On the contrary, suicide is up across the board. The main difference is that women attempt suicide more frequently, often 3-4 times more than men but choose ineffective methods to carry it out such as poisoning, and slitting their wrists. Men however opt for the use of firearms, and so their rate of successful suicide is nearly double that of women https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_differences_in_suicide

)
In the UK people rarely use firearms for suicide.

i've only skimmed these statistics https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula.../suicidesintheunitedkingdom/2017registrations but hanging is the most common

Suicide methods
In 2017 in the UK, as in previous years, the most common method of suicide for both males and females was hanging, suffocation or strangulation (all grouped together). This accounted for 59.7% of all suicides among males and 42.1% of all suicides among females (see Figure 8).
The second most common method of suicide was poisoning, accounting for 18.2% of all suicides among males and 38.3% of all suicides among females.
also for men is mostly middle aged

Since 2013, males aged 45 to 59 years have had the highest rate of suicide
Figure 6 shows that from 1981 to 1990, males aged 75 and over had the highest age-specific suicide rate. Over the past 36 years, between 1981 and 2017, the male rate of suicide for this age group has halved from 28.6 to 12.1 deaths per 100,000.
not to mention, as a percentage suicides have gone down

UK male suicide rate lowest since time series began in 1981
The 2017 suicide rate for males in the UK was 15.5 deaths per 100,000 (4,382 deaths); this is the lowest rate since the time series began in 1981. There has been a general downward trend since 1981, despite several statistically significant peaks. The highest rate in the 36-year period was in 1988 (21.4 deaths per 100,000 population).
The 2017 suicide rate for females in the UK was 4.9 per 100,000 population (1,439 deaths). The female suicide rate showed a mostly consistent downward trend from 1981 to a low point in 2007, but has since remained relatively stable. Female suicide rates in the UK are consistently lower than male suicide rates. In 2017, males made up three-quarters of suicides, a proportion which has been mostly consistent since the mid-1990s.
 

EnolaGaia

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#19
In some sense this might be true. I'd hazard a guess that we have spent a few too many years telling our young folk, that if only they trust in themselves, believe in their dreams and follow their star they can be anything they want and will be happy.
I call this the Disneyesque excuse for a personal philosophy, where everything turns out just fine in the end because the world and the fates always reward the good and the modest. It's a fantasy land where being optimistic is all that's required to get what you want. It's the clueless helplessness of the Eloi.


The trouble is, happiness is not an attainable goal, not everyone is even capable of being what they want to be and even so, you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things...
"They can't all be winners." Happiness is not an objective quality, much less a specifiable goal, in the first place - it's entirely relative to the individual. Individuals don't know all the options and pitfalls from the beginning. Some of the most content, if not happy, people I've known achieved that state in situations or roles they'd never anticipated and had to undergo substantial adaptation to attain.

There is no substitute for knowledge and effort. Most of the passive drones and burn-outs I've known have never managed to effectively stand up on their hind legs and make their own way in the world. All the active achievers and contented folks I've known have obtained success through prioritizing knowledge (formal or otherwise) and effort.


However, it may be more complex than this. ...
This used to be my assumption. However, I must concede this assumption seems weaker with each passing year.
 

Frideswide

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#21
unrealistic expectations of what life should give them without them actually having to make an effort to attaine it ?
Evidence that people who kill themselves are slackers?
 

EnolaGaia

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#22
Or one could say that it is further proof (as if it was needed) that men are simply more efficient than women in most respects.
Maybe women are just attention seeking.
Regardless of your intent, this is a gross over-generalization that practically begged for someone (in this case - Yith) to chide you for misogyny.
 

INT21

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#23
Frideswide,

A strange way to interpret what I wrote. Maybe you could explain in more detail how you come to that conclusion.

Line by line if you need to.
 
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EnolaGaia

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#24
... When lads set themselves a goal, they are still going about it in a more practical and efficient fashion than women attempting the same task, and achieving more reliable rates of completion. ...
Whether you're referring to life in general or suicide in particular, this may well be merely a distinction resulting from unequal starting points and sets of tractable options.
 

EnolaGaia

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#25
A strange way to interpret what I wrote. Maybe you could explain in more detail how you come to that conclusion.
Line by line if you need to.
A strange way to elicit any answer, given that you don't even bother to specify from whom you're eliciting it ...
 

Ladyloafer

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#26
I do wonder...when i was a teenager someone who was 'troubled' would 'run away from home'. Chances are they'd be found and dragged back and then the problems would get aired and hopefully dealt with. Equally of course, home might be the problem. But we'd all heard of some 16 year old who'd left home, gone to London, lived in a squat, got a job in a pub, and crappy as that might have been they were able to get on with their lives. And again, we all heard the scare stories of people, especially girls, who did that and terrible things happened.
How often teenagers did run away and stay away and move forward, I really don't know. But it was a hope. If it got bad you could run away.

But as a hopeful option it doesn't seem to exist anymore in the uk. Or maybe it does, and I'm just too old to be aware? But you rarely seem to hear about it these days unless the child is seen to be particularly vulnerable. Teenagers can rarely get social benefits, squatting is illegal, they have to stay in education till 18. So, just wondering really, if things are so crappy, maybe there seems to be no other option than suicide?
 

INT21

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#27
Enola Gaia,

I can only base this on experience.

I have know quite a few women who have taken a handful of tablets then got someone to rush them to A&E to have their stomach pumped out before the effects could become fatal. And they have been careful not to use tablets, the effect of which, cannot be reversed or stopped.

In all these cases it has been a cry for help.

And also, it has to be said (because it is true) that they are reacting to having made their own lives a total mess.
 

INT21

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#28
A strange way to elicit any answer, given that you don't even bother to specify from whom you're eliciting it ...

Quite so.

I was, of course, thinking of the post by Frideswide. You post came in before mine.

I shall go back and edit it.
 
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