Suicide In Our Modern Context

EnolaGaia

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#31
... One cause could be that young men are simply finding it harder to find gainful employment. And they are not stupid, they can see how the future is going to pan out. Add this to the constant bombardment of the media portraying alpha males with Ferrari s, exquisitely perfect mates (male or female) and all the things that they can never realistically hope ot attain, and you have the makings of terminal depression.
'I'm never going to make it', so why bother with all the anguish; just end it now.
This is a product of our £1000 cell phone etc society. It shows the very worst side of modern life.
I have no problem agreeing with this take on the situation.

My one reservation has to do with presuming all young men (or young people in general) are intelligent and / or knowledgable enough to see how the future is going to pan out. The younger folks I've known over the last 3 decades don't even pay attention to consequences or long-term ramifications, so I've no basis for gauging their savvy.
 

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#32
I know that you are very fond of your personal experience, but evidence, even a pooling of experience, would seem to be a more reliable basis.
So what would you consider to be the prime cause ?
 

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#33
I have know quite a few women who have taken a handful of tablets then got someone to rush them to A&E to have their stomach pumped out before the effects could become fatal. And they have been careful not to use tablets, the effect of which, cannot be reversed or stopped.
The people I have been closely involved with (apart from a family member) come in

F:M 7:12

dead:alive 8:4 (including someone who tried again successfully within a month or two in dead).

dead = 6F 2M

I just added it all up on my fingers

So what would you consider to be the prime cause ?
I would say that looking for a "prime cause" in such a complex picture is simplistic tosh.

First define your location, gender, family, health, self expectations, society expectations, age, access to eg firearms.... and the list goes on. And on.
 

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#34
I have no problem agreeing with this take on the situation.

My one reservation has to do with presuming all young men (or young people in general) are intelligent and / or knowledgable enough to see how the future is going to pan out. The younger folks I've known over the last 3 decades don't even pay attention to consequences or long-term ramifications, so I've no basis for gauging their savvy.

I do see what you mean. And these days it seems almost fashionable for young people, usually between about thirteen and eighteen, to have their own Social Worker. maybe if they were to take more notice of how the future is going to work out for their generation they would be better informed. Not as though it would necessarily make the situation any netter for them. If one has a 20/20 vision of a dystopian future where there is only work for a percentage, and a highly trained percentage at that, then They will need to be quite strong willed to see a reason for carrying on.Many do not even appear to be considering that there is a future.


There is every reason to do so, not to sink into the pit. But they would have to wind back the years to a simpler life style.

And the high cost of living in today's society makes that very difficult.

Even Peterson falls short in answering this ' what is there going to be for me in the future' question.

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#35
And these days it seems almost fashionable for young people, usually between about thirteen and eighteen, to have their own Social Worker.
Amazing really, all these Social Workers being about for them, given that there are waiting lists for people (all ages) to have someone assigned to them.

Social Workers deal with considerable or major or very significant (the wording varies across the UK) issues. Self harm, police involvement, public events and so on do not of themselves involve being assigned a Social Worker. You should know that, how long have you been out of the field for?

unrealistic expectations of what life should give them without them actually having to make an effort to attaine it ?
I am asking what evidence you have that people who kill themselves have "unrealistic expectations of what life should give them without them actually having to make an effort to attaine it"

There is no point in debating it unless there is evidence (rather than FOAF or personal anecdote) that it is so.
 

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#36
Evidence that people who kill themselves are slackers?
Let's re-visit this.

How do you come to the conclusion that I am calling suicide victims slackers ?

I though I was making it quite clear that I blame the lack of opportunity and particularly the increased problem of finding work in out incresingly automated world, as a reason for people going into a depressive state. And that they may see no point in continuing as they can see no light at the end of the tunnel; in fact they don't believe there is a tunnel to be found.
 

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#38
thay have been brought up with unrealistic expectations of what life should give them without them actually having to make an effort to attaine it ?
You suggest it as a possible explanation. I have asked what your evidence is.

I can suggest that it is an over provision of welly boots with the toes made to look like frogs. But there's no point in considering it because there isn't the evidence.
 

Bad Bungle

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#39
If this isn't a private thread...
When I did a brief study of suicide in Sociology at Poly in 1984, the suicide rate in England and Wales was just over 4,000 a year. The figure hadn't significantly changed over the previous 10 years and I was told it probably wouldn't over the next decade. If the number of suicides in the UK (ie inc NI and Scotland) in 2017 was 4,382, then the shock headlines must relate to changes in the gender balance and/or the age breakdown rather than the rock-steady total deaths.
Incidentally, I read that suicide statistics in Ireland (at least in the '80's) were practically meaningless - the stories of suicide notes found and hidden by Catholic family members were probably a myth (certainly difficult to prove). But a Coroner whose jurisdiction covered a river near Dublin never gave a verdict of suicide, every body recovered was a result of accidental drowning. I also think there is a big difference between the UK and the US in the number of suicides by deliberate vehicle crashes (I've earmarked the cliff in Cornwall where I'm taking my motorbike one day) - crashes in this country tend to be all treated as accidental.
Finally I have just read some of the stats on Wiki - 55 recent suicides associated with Helium, a significant rise apparently - what the ??
 

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#40
I am asking what evidence you have that people who kill themselves have "unrealistic expectations of what life should give them without them actually having to make an effort to attaine it"

There is no point in debating it unless there is evidence (rather than FOAF or personal anecdote) that it is so.
In post #3 above, in a response to Coal, I wrote..

..Is it possibly because they have been brought up with unrealistic expectations of what life should give them without them actually having to make an effort to attain it ...



It is suggested as a possibility. why do you have a problem with this ?

INT21.
 

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#41
55 recent suicides associated with Helium
Is that like this earlier thread on here? Or inhaling it? Being hit on the head by a falling cylinder? I'm just boggling here!

Not suggesting the Weather Balloon was helium, just extrapolating!
 

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#43
I've read it. Another five seconds I will never get back.

You intrigue me.

Every time I suggest a reasonable possibility (which your frog wellies isn't (unless you have evidence to the contrary)) you ask me for the evidence.
We are hypothesizing here. Unless the deceased has left a not explain why he/she did it, then we will never really know.
I ask you, is it not a reasonable hypothesis that contemplating a rather bleak future of unemployment, which puts the male in a lower position when being ranked as a potential breadwinner, would that not be reason enough to end it all rather than face what some may consider to be a humiliating outlook ?
 
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Ladyloafer

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#44
If this isn't a private thread...
When I did a brief study of suicide in Sociology at Poly in 1984, the suicide rate in England and Wales was just over 4,000 a year. The figure hadn't significantly changed over the previous 10 years and I was told it probably wouldn't over the next decade. If the number of suicides in the UK (ie inc NI and Scotland) in 2017 was 4,382, then the shock headlines must relate to changes in the gender balance and/or the age breakdown rather than the rock-steady total deaths.
Incidentally, I read that suicide statistics in Ireland (at least in the '80's) were practically meaningless - the stories of suicide notes found and hidden by Catholic family members were probably a myth (certainly difficult to prove). But a Coroner whose jurisdiction covered a river near Dublin never gave a verdict of suicide, every body recovered was a result of accidental drowning. I also think there is a big difference between the UK and the US in the number of suicides by deliberate vehicle crashes (I've earmarked the cliff in Cornwall where I'm taking my motorbike one day) - crashes in this country tend to be all treated as accidental.
Finally I have just read some of the stats on Wiki - 55 recent suicides associated with Helium, a significant rise apparently - what the ??
i posted some stats on the previous page which implies rates in the UK are the lowest for decades.

I think the shock headlines are about suicide being the highest cause of death for young men, NOT specially that there are lots of suicides. Just speculating, but maybe 20 years ago more young men died in other ways- car accidents, drugs, juvenile cancer? who knows. But I guess if those reasons for death have been solved, suddenly suicide numbers start to look worse.
 

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#45
I suspect that the deaths Bad Bungle is refering to are caused by lack of Oxygen through inhaling the Helium.
 

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#46
I ask you, is it not a reasonable hypothesis that contemplating a rather bleak future of unempluyment, which puts the male in a lower position when being ranked as a potential breadwinner, would not be reason enough to end it all rather than face what some may consider to be a humiliating outlook ?
This is a discussion board. Asking for evidence, if any, is something we do.
 

EnolaGaia

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#47
... I can only base this on experience.
I have know quite a few women who have taken a handful of tablets then got someone to rush them to A&E to have their stomach pumped out before the effects could become fatal. And they have been careful not to use tablets, the effect of which, cannot be reversed or stopped.
In all these cases it has been a cry for help.
And also, it has to be said (because it is true) that they are reacting to having made their own lives a total mess.
I can understand that ... In my younger years (1960's / 1970's) the females I knew who were known to have attempted suicide always used the overdose approach. These were all teens or twenty-somethings, all of whom had access to potentially lethal prescription drugs (in most cases, their own). None of them succeeded in killing themselves, but some were institutionalized as a result.

To the best of my knowledge, a prescription drug OD was the most readily available option in all cases. My point is that availability of the means was limited, and this was the most likely reason for using the pills strategy.

Later female suicides with which I've been familiar diversified beyond pills to other means (e.g., suffocation; firearm). This tends to support the notion that access to lethal means can vary.

With the exception of extremely toxic substances, attempting self-extinction with pills or poisons is a comparatively indirect procedure. Popping the pills in your mouth and swallowing them doesn't kill you immediately. It takes a while. Your body has a chance to react and purge the poison (e.g., via vomiting). There's time for someone to discover you and get you to the emergency room. In the mean time, you're probably incapable of action and subject to whatever someone else may do. In other words, taking poison / pills represents casting your fate to the winds rather than 'sealing the deal' all at once.

Using a gun is far more direct - it works instantaneously, and the intended outcome is practically guaranteed to result.

IMHO a lot of the purported differences between male and female suicides relate to availability of means, with females having to rely on indirect means more than males.

A couple of the teen-era female suicide attempts were by girls who later admitted they'd been aiming for attention as much as death (but didn't care in the moment about which one they'd receive). The later ones were arranged to ensure death would precede discovery / attention.

Unless it's personally confessed (in writing before; by any means after an unsuccessful attempt), I tend to be skeptical of the 'cry for help' attribution. It's too easy a way for everyone else to cursorily dodge any personal responsibility for letting the victim's situation get out of hand. It's the safest of all 'mind fucks' (in the old group psychotherapy sense).
 

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#48
Unless it's personally confessed (in writing before; by any means after an unsuccessful attempt), I tend to be skeptical of the 'cry for help' attribution. It's too easy a way for everyone else to cursorily dodge any personal responsibility for letting the victim's situation get out of hand. It's the safest of all 'mind fucks' (in the old group psychotherapy sense).
And it is the most vile weapon someone can use on someone else. Particularly in a relationship.

Believe me, I know all about that aspect of this.

It's hideous.
 

EnolaGaia

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#49
I do see what you mean. And these days it seems almost fashionable for young people, usually between about thirteen and eighteen, to have their own Social Worker. maybe if they were to take more notice of how the future is going to work out for their generation they would be better informed. Not as though it would necessarily make the situation any netter for them. If one has a 20/20 vision of a dystopian future where there is only work for a percentage, and a highly trained percentage at that, then They will need to be quite strong willed to see a reason for carrying on.Many do not even appear to be considering that there is a future. ...
At the most fundamental level, I blame certain interrelated global / societal trends for aggravating the situation:

- a massive acceleration in the tempo of modern lifestyles
- a corresponding increase in the complexity of modern living
- a prioritization on immediacy and convenience (instilled by those who profit from selling it)
- the bias immediacy induces toward demanding quick results
- the bias convenience induces toward presuming 'no effort necessary'

The result is a level of naive inexperience and passive receptivity that is greater than was tolerated in past times and which lingers for much longer that it once did.

There's no shame in needing a social worker to aid you. IMHO there is cause for shame if you don't seriously take steps to 'deal with it' before simply giving up and calling for assistance. Life isn't a drive-thru convenience; much assembly is required.
 

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#50
Enola Gaia,

I was thinking of the Social Worker who is allocated to a (often) teenager who has ended up in all kinds of problems often due to bad behaviour. Or to a family breakdown.

Not so much as the role usually filled by a psychologist., Someone you may go to if you feel you need to 'talk it out' with a person who is outside the problem.

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#51
The result is a level of naive inexperience and passive receptivity that is greater than was tolerated in past times and which lingers for much longer that it once did.
Possibly the socio-economic conditions when the majority worked in long-term factory or industrial jobs were much less tolerant of navel gazing and angst. The young man had to grow up fast - it may well be the pressure to marry young and the necessity to support a family also thrust a certain maturity onto those who might otherwise dawdle to it.

Plus there was a certainty as to what one's role in life was and would be for the foreseeable future.

I'm not saying life down the mines was good or anything, but one grew up quick and shouldered one's responsibilities, and more importantly they were clearly signposted. We perhaps need more of the latter, but without the near back-breaking labour of the former.
 

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#52
At the most fundamental level, I blame certain interrelated global / societal trends for aggravating the situation:



The result is a level of naive inexperience and passive receptivity that is greater than was tolerated in past times and which lingers for much longer than it once did
The modern tendency for children to continue living with their parents is also, in my opinion, a contributing factor.

It is also altering the relationship between parent and child.
 

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#53
Coal,

Got to agree.

The stability is gone.

And the young now want the same rewards as the people who have many years of experience.

I often hear kids saying' I wouldn't get out of bed for less than ten Pound an hour'.

Basically they don't want to get out of bed at all.

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#54
The modern tendency for children to continue living with their parents is also, in my opinion, a contributing factor.

It is also altering the relationship between parent and child.
Take a look at "The Captive Woman" by Hannah Gavron, in which she argues (convincingly) that in the late 1950's and 1960's people rushed into unsuitable marriages while young, simply to get out of their parents' houses.

The result was a generation of under educated women - having left school at 16, who'd never had a job, so were essentially trapped in marriages without recourse or other options in life.
 

EnolaGaia

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#55
... I was thinking of the Social Worker who is allocated to a (often) teenager who has ended up in all kinds of problems often due to bad behaviour. Or to a family breakdown.
Not so much as the role usually filled by a psychologist., Someone you may go to if you feel you need to 'talk it out' with a person who is outside the problem.
Understood ... However, I still stand by my intended point that there's an increasing tendency to 'outsource' problems by reaching out to institutionalized channels before getting one's own hands dirty attempting to dig him-/herself out of whatever malaise it may be.
 

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#56
Understood ... However, I still stand by my intended point that there's an increasing tendency to 'outsource' problems by reaching out to institutionalized channels before getting one's own hands dirty attempting to dig him-/herself out of whatever malaise it may be.
Maybe the art of introspection if becoming lost to the young ?

And the knowledge of 'when you find your getting yourself in a hole. First stop digging'.

That is a very Peterson view.
 

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#58
in 1984, the suicide rate in England and Wales was just over 4,000 a year. ... the number of suicides in the UK (ie inc NI and Scotland) in 2017 was 4,382,
Is this per 100,000 people or just the straight number? If the latter it would be a drop, given population increase?

Edit here are the stats. Suicide was at a high in the UK in 1988. Female suicide rates have gone from 1/3 to 1/4 of total; all have dropped somewhat.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_the_United_Kingdom
 

EnolaGaia

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#59
All the suicides, with one exception, that I have known, have been related to drug use. ...
This provides an opening for mentioning a point I'd wanted to bring up.

First, let me set some context ...

Some folks commit what amounts to suicide over the course of years - even decades - without ever resorting to a deliberate and decisive terminating action. The usual means is alcohol / drug abuse, sustained without interruption while sleep-walking through an unchanging routine. I'm talking about a comprehensive lifestyle here - not just heavy recreational usage.

At least 3 close acquaintances (including my only sibling and my high school era best friend) took this long-term route to oblivion. I've known 3 more who were on the same path, but managed to pull out or re-direct themselves after a scary medical wake-up call. In 4 of these 6 cases the person confessed to repeatedly considering, or attempting, suicide.

(NOTE: Two of these confessions were in writing and weren't discovered until after their deaths.)

In 1 case I personally witnessed an early suicide attempt (for the record - a male trying the prescription OD tactic) and helped the friend to survive. He would later make another unsuccessful attempt (again trying an OD) overseas.

My attitude toward all 6 is summarized by the cynical micro-obit I gave my teen-era best friend when he finally crashed after 30 years' effort - "Preceded in death by his life."

Having said this ... Here's my point ...

I consider suicide to be the decisive conclusion deliberately enacted by some of the folks burdened with a broader or more general malaise. It's an optional exit from a path many travel. I don't see the act of suicide as being a discrete phenomenon representing a focused, shrink-wrapped wad of angst. I see it as the most dramatic result of something bigger or more protracted. As such, I don't believe there's much that can be constructively said about suicide in and of itself.
 
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#60
.Personally i think there's two main types of suicide. Event suicides which happen due to some short term crisis point that the individual can't cope with long enough to rationalise and not do it, and those planned. i tend to agree with Enolagaia that those with the guts, plan it out and carry it through over a shortish period of time and the vast majority do it long term through drink, drugs or whatever, which of course doesn't show up as suicides but they are. Take that 4k figure and at least double it i reckon. It's one thing not wanting to exist, it's another jumping off a chair with a rope around your neck. Why more young men? well i think they tend to have less of a support structure amongst their friends or more likely just don't discuss it with their friends. At the risk of being called sexist, in my experience you tend to know if a woman friend is distressed as they make sure you know, whereas a friend of mine slashed his wrists, just luck i found him. I had no idea he was feeling that way.
 
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