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Suicide As A Social Phenomenon

rynner2

Gone But Not Forgotten
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...according to this report
Right-wing governments may sap some people's will to live and result in more suicides, conclude studies in Britain and Australia.

The researchers speculate that losers are more likely to kill themselves in the individualistic, "winner-takes-all" societies favoured by right wing governments, because they are left to fend for themselves. Wide disparities in wealth also sharpen any sense of hopelessness, the researchers argue.

"If you fail under that ideology, it would accentuate your feelings of failure," says Mary Shaw, whose team at the University of Bristol analysed suicide trends in England and Wales over the past century.

Left wing governments tend to be more "inclusive" and community based, she says, decreasing the isolation felt by people down on their luck. Shaw's team calculates that over the past century, 35,000 extra suicides occurred when the Tories were in power.

"That's equivalent to one suicide for every day of the 20th Century, or two for every day that the Conservatives ruled," the team write in the Journal of Epidemiology and Community Health.

Britain's Conservative Party declined to comment on the findings.


Double trouble


Shaw and her colleagues found that on average, suicide rates were 17 per cent higher when the Conservatives were in power, compared to the annual average of 103 suicides per million population when opposition parties held office.

Richard Taylor and his team in the School of Public Health at the University of Sydney found similar trends over the past century in New South Wales. When Right-wing governments were in power, men were 17 per cent more likely and women 40 per cent more likely to commit suicide.

They report that rates were highest whenever Right wing governments held power both at federal and state levels.

Both studies reached their conclusions after taking into account other factors that affect suicide rates, such as economic slumps, wartime, and even a surge of suicides among women in the 1960s when sedatives became widely available.


"You've never had it so good"


But the same trend always emerged, even at times of economic boom such as the "you've-never-had-it-so-good" years when Harold MacMillan led the UK's Tory government between 1957 and 1963.

During that time, annual suicides peaked at 137 per million population. Shaw points out that rates were almost as high in the 1930s (135 per million) when Labour's Ramsay McDonald headed a coalition, but she believes the primary reason then was the century's worst economic slump.

The lowest rate was 85 per million, during the Liberal government of David Lloyd George between 1916 and 1920. Now, under Tony Blair, it is back to the non-Conservative average of 103, down from 121 during Margaret Thatcher's first term in the early 1980s.

Shaw admits that attempts to connect the differences to ideologies are pure speculation. "But I'd be very interested to see if suicide rates are higher wherever there's a Right-wing government," she says. "I'd be particularly interested to see if the relationship holds in the US."

A study published in July 2001 found that US Republicans are almost three times more likely to have nightmares than Democrats. But a Republican spokesman told New Scientist at the time: "If we are, it's because we're left cleaning up the mess left by eight years of Bill Clinton. We sleep better now Bush is in the White House."
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An emotive subject I know - but hey! I can delete or edit the thread if it gets out of hand.
 
Yet another reason not to vote tory/ republican.

Though it's war fever that realy makes me want to top myself (Falklands, Afghanastan, Iraq)
 
rynner said:
...according to this report
Right-wing governments may sap some people's will to live and result in more suicides, conclude studies in Britain and Australia.
And I thought it was just the idea of John Winston Howard as PM.

However, I can see how many disadvantaged people would see it as part of their "mutual obligation" to cease putting a drain on the public coffers. And it's easier than trying to sign on for the dole.

(I apologise, I seem to be a bit dark at the moment. I need to find a nice cheery thread about kittens and puppy-dogs, or something.)
 
I read in the paper this weekend that suicide is now the most common cause of death in men under 30 in the UK :(

Why would men be affected worse than women?
 
Hmm - I dn't think that figure points out that men are affected worse than women, just that it's a common form of death for males under 30. There's no quoted data for women to compare to.
 
SUICIDE rates among young people in Scotland’s poorest areas have
increased dramatically, according to research published today.

Young Scots in deprived communities were more than four times as likely
to commit suicide than those living in more affluent areas from 1980 to
2001.

The gap increased most for young women from poorer postcodes in
Scotland, the research in this week’s British Medical Journal found.

Between 1999 and 2001, almost six times more young women committed
suicide in the most deprived areas than in the most well-off areas.

The research was based on data from the General Register Office for
Scotland between 1980-82 and 1999-2001.

It found that suicides in Scotland for 15 to 44-year-olds over the two
decades increased from 15.38 to 24.32 per 100,000.

However, the research also found that suicide rates dropped for adults
aged over 45 in Scotland, from 22.99 per 100,000 in 1980-82 to 16.73 in
1999-2001.

The researchers suggested factors already known to influence suicide -
such as drug abuse, divorce and unemployment - were likely to be more
common in poor areas.

The Scottish Executive, which has set a target to reduce suicides by 15
per cent for ten to 24-year-olds in the most deprived communities by
2009, said the rate had already fallen since the end of the BMJ study
in
2001.
 
from the BBC:poorer Scots at risk of suicide
Deprived Scots are four times as likely to commit suicide than those living in more affluent areas, a study has found.
Researchers found suicide rates among poorer communities had increased dramatically since 1980.

The General Register Office for Scotland found suicides for 15-44-year-olds went up from 15.38 to 24.32 per 100,000 between 1980 and 2001.

The study suggested drug abuse, divorce and unemployment could be to blame as they are more common in poorer areas.

The results, published in the British Medical Journal (BMJ), found men in the most deprived communities were four times more at risk of taking their own lives than those in more affluent areas.


We need to get across a message of hope for people
Gregor Henderson
Scottish Executive

Across all parts of Scotland, the risk of suicide for males rose from 22.13 to 38.65 per 100,000.

The suicide rate for all women increased from 8.62 to 10.55 per 100,000 over the same timescale.

However, the figures noticed a sharp increase in female suicides between 1999 and 2001 when almost six times more women took their own lives while living in poorer postcodes.

The researchers also noticed suicide rates dropped for those aged 45 and over, dropping from 22.99 per 100,000 in 1980-82 to 16.73 in 1999-2001.

Despite the findings, the Scottish Executive, which has set a target to reduce suicides by 15% for 10-24-year-olds in the most deprived communities by 2009, said the rate had already fallen since the end of the BMJ study in 2001.

Vitally important

The director of the executive's national programme for improving mental health, Gregor Henderson, said: "Achieving this target will rely heavily on people all over Scotland becoming more aware of their own mental and emotional health and well-being and the difficulties facing others.

"We need to get across a message of hope for people.

"The vast majority of people who experience mental or emotional ill-health and difficulties can and do recover with the right support and help.

"People's attitudes also help and ending the stigma that still exists is also of vital importance."

The Scottish Association for Mental Health said the rising suicide rate among poorer communities came as no surprise.

Policy director Richard Norris said: "In Scotland we need to be more open about mental health problems, so that people are able to seek help before it is too late.

"This survey shows we need to focus on the importance of mental well-being and ensuring everyone, particularly among younger people, has a feeling of belonging.

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/s ... 115407.stm

Published: 2004/12/22 08:03:23 GMT

© BBC MMIV
 
A Northern Ireland psychologist has said he is in no doubt a "sizeable suicide pact" surrounds a spate of deaths in County Armagh.
Dr Arthur Cassidy has been working with young people from Laurelvale and the surrounding area after the suicides of three 15-year-old boys within a month.

The most recent death was last Friday night.

However, a local clergyman said he did not believe there was a suicide pact among pupils in the area.

Dr Cassidy believes up to 12 teenagers are involved in the exclusively male pact which "involves agreed dates".

"We've had young people coming to us crying, and saying that they fear their friend is going to be next," said Dr Cassidy.

All three of the teenagers who have taken their own lives in the Laurelvale/Tandragee area within the last month were pupils at Craigavon Senior High School.

Dr Cassidy said the suicides have "undoubtedly been assisted by research done on the internet" where such information is widely available.

"We've been trying to just be there for the young people, listen to their problems and show them that help is available," he said.

"My advice for parents in the area and indeed elsewhere would be spend more time your with children and be on the look-out for any radical changes in behaviour."

Dr Cassidy added that parents should "be especially aware of new friends without any logical explanation."

However, the Reverend Brian Harper said while there was no explanation for what had happened, he did not think there had been a suicide pact, but that rumours were causing problems.

"The community has gone into freefall hysteria over the weekend," said the local minister.

"Parents have been told that their children are dead. Children are receiving text messages that their best friends are dead.

"They are going absolutely hysterical, and once text messaging starts, it flies through the whole community.

"There hasn't been a single bit of truth to any of the rumours."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/6761965.stm

maximus otter
 
From the same website:

Men 'made internet suicide pact'
Their bodies were found at Gortin Lakes on Tuesday afternoon following an operation by an underwater search team.

Father Neil Farren, who gave the Last Rites, said the men's families received letters about what they had done.

"The letters said what they were doing, that there would be identification on the bodies of who they were, and the location of where they would find the bodies," he said.

I thought that the RC church was clamping down on giving the sacraments to sinners ... so I'm pleasantly surprised at the flexibility in this case. Here some RC authorities refuse a church burial when a patient has used our uthanasia-laws to shorten his life.
 
This thread is being initiated to hold a growing tangential discussion originating in the Jordan Peterson thread:
https://forums.forteana.org/index.php?threads/jordan-peterson.65204/

===========

Suicide is still the single biggest killer of young British men, and as for Ireland (where 80% of suicides are men) and NI, it's grim (google is your friend). So anyone who provides some hope and clarity to young and middle aged men might be applauded for it.
 
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Suicide is still the single biggest killer of young British men, and as for Ireland (where 80% of suicides are men) and NI, it's grim (google is your friend). So anyone who provides some hope and clarity to young and middle aged men might be applauded for it.

The trouble is, the far right is providing hope of a false kind to young and middle-aged white men, since that's what happens when they get told they're the enemy from all sides. If you didn't think you were racist, sexist, a potential (maybe actual) rapist, a violent offender and all that other antisocial stuff before, there are plenty of people willing to embrace you because you've started to believe it yourself now. You take umbrage, or you feel ashamed. Those taking umbrage cause trouble for others, those feeling ashamed opt for self-destruction. ...
 
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Suicide is still the single biggest killer of young British men, and as for Ireland (where 80% of suicides are men) and NI, it's grim (google is your friend). So anyone who provides some hope and clarity to young and middle aged men might be applauded for it.

One could ask why British young men think this is the way out.

Why are they incapable of adapting to the modern way of life in the UK.

Is it possibly because thay have been brought up with unrealistic expectations of what life should give them without them actually having to make an effort to attaine it ?

INT21
 
Is it possibly because thay have been brought up with unrealistic expectations of what life should give them without them actually having to make an effort to attaine it ?
In some sense this might be true. I'd hazard a guess that we have spent a few too many years telling our young folk, that if only they trust in themselves, believe in their dreams and follow their star they can be anything they want and will be happy.

The trouble is, happiness is not an attainable goal, not everyone is even capable of being what they want to be and even so, you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things...

However, it may be more complex than this.

(Apologies to the great Sir T. Pratchett)
 
And arguably the vogue for females blaming them and the 'toxic patriarchy' for stopping their equally impossible and unattainable goals.
 
One could ask why British young men think this is the way out. Why are they incapable of adapting to the modern way of life in the UK. Is it possibly because thay have been brought up with unrealistic expectations of what life should give them without them actually having to make an effort to attaine it ? INT21

On the contrary, suicide is up across the board. The main difference is that women attempt suicide more frequently, often 3-4 times more than men but choose ineffective methods to carry it out such as poisoning, and slitting their wrists. Men however opt for the use of firearms, and so their rate of successful suicide is nearly double that of women https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_differences_in_suicide

So basically INT21 you are being grossly unfair to young men today. When lads set themselves a goal, they are still going about it in a more practical and efficient fashion than women attempting the same task, and achieving more reliable rates of completion.
:truce::reap::died::twothumbs:

(As a very old goth, my subculture jokes about suicide quite a lot)
 
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Or one could say that it is further proof (as if it was needed) that men are simply more efficient than women in most respects.

Maybe women are just attention seeking.

INT21.
 
Or one could say that it is further proof (as if it was needed) that men are simply more efficient than women in most respects.

Maybe women are just attention seeking.

INT21.

Not even a punchline?
 
Waiting for the responses first. I'm sure the fairer sex will not let that one past without at least a raised eyebrow.
 
... So basically INT21 you are being grossly unfair to young men today. When lads set themselves a goal, they are still going about it in a more practical and efficient fashion than women attempting the same task, and achieving more reliable rates of completion. ...

I don't dispute the notion that males may be more proficient at 'getting it done', but I also don't think it's as one-dimensional as that ...

On the one hand, there could well be gender differences in access to means of self-destruction. For example, firearm ownership / access / familiarity is generally higher for males than females. How many females know how to tie an effective noose?

I suspect there's a significant aspect to all this that pertains to the ends (deciding to kill oneself) more than the means. To the extent the many surveys / analyses done on this have identified gender-related differences, the cited differences have more to do with socio-cultural factors (roles, stressors, expectations, etc.) impinging on the decision than the performance of the act.
 
Yithian,

Your sense of humour is due for an overhaul; it seems to have stopped working.

I hardly consider the remark misogynistic.

Or are females becoming like gays and blacks, something that cannot be discussed in any form without it being considered a form of attack.

Anyway, to any female member, I offer an apology in advance.

INT21.
 
Enola Gaia,

My remark was a direct response to AlchoPwn's comment on the greater efficiency of men.

Looks as if it bombed out.
 
You realise, I assume, that a large proportion of our membership is female?

Could you possibly drop the mysogyny? It's completely out of place.

Many women would consider they’re quite able fight their own battles Yith, and this display of ‘white night’ masculinity is indicative of your long held endemic sexism. ;)
 
Getting back to the original.

One cause could be that young men are simply finding it harder to find gainful employment. And they are not stupid, they can see how the future is going to pan out. Add this to the constant bombardment of the media portraying alpha males with Ferrari s, exquisitely perfect mates (male or female) and all the things that they can never realistically hope ot attain, and you have the makings of terminal depression.

'I'm never going to make it', so why bother with all the anguish; just end it now.

This is a product of our £1000 cell phone etc society. It shows the very worst side of modern life.

INT21.
 
One could ask why British young men think this is the way out.
Why are they incapable of adapting to the modern way of life in the UK.
Is it possibly because thay have been brought up with unrealistic expectations of what life should give them without them actually having to make an effort to attaine it ?

I would say it's not just in the UK, and it's not just young men.

Your allusions to unrealistic expectations and overestimated ease of acquiring benefits resonate with what I've seen in all members of younger generations here in the USA.

A host of innovations and changes in the last 3 decades have synergistically interacted to allow people to encapsulate themselves within a bubble of relative obliviousness. If and when that bubble bursts upon contact with 'reality', the psychic / emotional impact seems to be far worse than it was for those of us who had to deal with life's rough edges earlier or longer.
 
All the suicides, with one exception, that I have known, have been related to drug use.

It is fairly easy to see how the two can be connected. Particularly when the user realise that he/she wants to quit, but doesn't have the strength of will to do so.

The odd one out was a fellow cab driver. He clipped a child who had run out from behind a bus. Entirely the childs fault, and he wasn't hurt; just shaken. I was just behind when it happened and took the child home to his mother.

But for some reason it prayed on the drivers mind. He couldn't accept that not only was the child unhurt, but that it wasn't his fault.

He had hit a child. That was all he could see.

One day he hung himself in his garage.

INT21.
 
On the contrary, suicide is up across the board. The main difference is that women attempt suicide more frequently, often 3-4 times more than men but choose ineffective methods to carry it out such as poisoning, and slitting their wrists. Men however opt for the use of firearms, and so their rate of successful suicide is nearly double that of women https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_differences_in_suicide

)
In the UK people rarely use firearms for suicide.

i've only skimmed these statistics https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula.../suicidesintheunitedkingdom/2017registrations but hanging is the most common

Suicide methods
In 2017 in the UK, as in previous years, the most common method of suicide for both males and females was hanging, suffocation or strangulation (all grouped together). This accounted for 59.7% of all suicides among males and 42.1% of all suicides among females (see Figure 8).
The second most common method of suicide was poisoning, accounting for 18.2% of all suicides among males and 38.3% of all suicides among females.

also for men is mostly middle aged

Since 2013, males aged 45 to 59 years have had the highest rate of suicide
Figure 6 shows that from 1981 to 1990, males aged 75 and over had the highest age-specific suicide rate. Over the past 36 years, between 1981 and 2017, the male rate of suicide for this age group has halved from 28.6 to 12.1 deaths per 100,000.

not to mention, as a percentage suicides have gone down

UK male suicide rate lowest since time series began in 1981
The 2017 suicide rate for males in the UK was 15.5 deaths per 100,000 (4,382 deaths); this is the lowest rate since the time series began in 1981. There has been a general downward trend since 1981, despite several statistically significant peaks. The highest rate in the 36-year period was in 1988 (21.4 deaths per 100,000 population).
The 2017 suicide rate for females in the UK was 4.9 per 100,000 population (1,439 deaths). The female suicide rate showed a mostly consistent downward trend from 1981 to a low point in 2007, but has since remained relatively stable. Female suicide rates in the UK are consistently lower than male suicide rates. In 2017, males made up three-quarters of suicides, a proportion which has been mostly consistent since the mid-1990s.
 
In some sense this might be true. I'd hazard a guess that we have spent a few too many years telling our young folk, that if only they trust in themselves, believe in their dreams and follow their star they can be anything they want and will be happy.

I call this the Disneyesque excuse for a personal philosophy, where everything turns out just fine in the end because the world and the fates always reward the good and the modest. It's a fantasy land where being optimistic is all that's required to get what you want. It's the clueless helplessness of the Eloi.


The trouble is, happiness is not an attainable goal, not everyone is even capable of being what they want to be and even so, you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things...

"They can't all be winners." Happiness is not an objective quality, much less a specifiable goal, in the first place - it's entirely relative to the individual. Individuals don't know all the options and pitfalls from the beginning. Some of the most content, if not happy, people I've known achieved that state in situations or roles they'd never anticipated and had to undergo substantial adaptation to attain.

There is no substitute for knowledge and effort. Most of the passive drones and burn-outs I've known have never managed to effectively stand up on their hind legs and make their own way in the world. All the active achievers and contented folks I've known have obtained success through prioritizing knowledge (formal or otherwise) and effort.


However, it may be more complex than this. ...

This used to be my assumption. However, I must concede this assumption seems weaker with each passing year.
 
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