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Suicide As A Social Phenomenon

unrealistic expectations of what life should give them without them actually having to make an effort to attaine it ?

Evidence that people who kill themselves are slackers?
 
Or one could say that it is further proof (as if it was needed) that men are simply more efficient than women in most respects.
Maybe women are just attention seeking.

Regardless of your intent, this is a gross over-generalization that practically begged for someone (in this case - Yith) to chide you for misogyny.
 
Frideswide,

A strange way to interpret what I wrote. Maybe you could explain in more detail how you come to that conclusion.

Line by line if you need to.
 
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... When lads set themselves a goal, they are still going about it in a more practical and efficient fashion than women attempting the same task, and achieving more reliable rates of completion. ...

Whether you're referring to life in general or suicide in particular, this may well be merely a distinction resulting from unequal starting points and sets of tractable options.
 
A strange way to interpret what I wrote. Maybe you could explain in more detail how you come to that conclusion.
Line by line if you need to.

A strange way to elicit any answer, given that you don't even bother to specify from whom you're eliciting it ...
 
I do wonder...when i was a teenager someone who was 'troubled' would 'run away from home'. Chances are they'd be found and dragged back and then the problems would get aired and hopefully dealt with. Equally of course, home might be the problem. But we'd all heard of some 16 year old who'd left home, gone to London, lived in a squat, got a job in a pub, and crappy as that might have been they were able to get on with their lives. And again, we all heard the scare stories of people, especially girls, who did that and terrible things happened.
How often teenagers did run away and stay away and move forward, I really don't know. But it was a hope. If it got bad you could run away.

But as a hopeful option it doesn't seem to exist anymore in the uk. Or maybe it does, and I'm just too old to be aware? But you rarely seem to hear about it these days unless the child is seen to be particularly vulnerable. Teenagers can rarely get social benefits, squatting is illegal, they have to stay in education till 18. So, just wondering really, if things are so crappy, maybe there seems to be no other option than suicide?
 
Enola Gaia,

I can only base this on experience.

I have know quite a few women who have taken a handful of tablets then got someone to rush them to A&E to have their stomach pumped out before the effects could become fatal. And they have been careful not to use tablets, the effect of which, cannot be reversed or stopped.

In all these cases it has been a cry for help.

And also, it has to be said (because it is true) that they are reacting to having made their own lives a total mess.
 
A strange way to elicit any answer, given that you don't even bother to specify from whom you're eliciting it ...


Quite so.

I was, of course, thinking of the post by Frideswide. You post came in before mine.

I shall go back and edit it.
 
I can only base this on experience.

I know that you are very fond of your personal experience, but evidence, even a pooling of experience, would seem to be a more reliable basis.
 
... One cause could be that young men are simply finding it harder to find gainful employment. And they are not stupid, they can see how the future is going to pan out. Add this to the constant bombardment of the media portraying alpha males with Ferrari s, exquisitely perfect mates (male or female) and all the things that they can never realistically hope ot attain, and you have the makings of terminal depression.
'I'm never going to make it', so why bother with all the anguish; just end it now.
This is a product of our £1000 cell phone etc society. It shows the very worst side of modern life.

I have no problem agreeing with this take on the situation.

My one reservation has to do with presuming all young men (or young people in general) are intelligent and / or knowledgable enough to see how the future is going to pan out. The younger folks I've known over the last 3 decades don't even pay attention to consequences or long-term ramifications, so I've no basis for gauging their savvy.
 
I know that you are very fond of your personal experience, but evidence, even a pooling of experience, would seem to be a more reliable basis.

So what would you consider to be the prime cause ?
 
I have know quite a few women who have taken a handful of tablets then got someone to rush them to A&E to have their stomach pumped out before the effects could become fatal. And they have been careful not to use tablets, the effect of which, cannot be reversed or stopped.

The people I have been closely involved with (apart from a family member) come in

F:M 7:12

dead:alive 8:4 (including someone who tried again successfully within a month or two in dead).

dead = 6F 2M

I just added it all up on my fingers

So what would you consider to be the prime cause ?

I would say that looking for a "prime cause" in such a complex picture is simplistic tosh.

First define your location, gender, family, health, self expectations, society expectations, age, access to eg firearms.... and the list goes on. And on.
 
I have no problem agreeing with this take on the situation.

My one reservation has to do with presuming all young men (or young people in general) are intelligent and / or knowledgable enough to see how the future is going to pan out. The younger folks I've known over the last 3 decades don't even pay attention to consequences or long-term ramifications, so I've no basis for gauging their savvy.


I do see what you mean. And these days it seems almost fashionable for young people, usually between about thirteen and eighteen, to have their own Social Worker. maybe if they were to take more notice of how the future is going to work out for their generation they would be better informed. Not as though it would necessarily make the situation any netter for them. If one has a 20/20 vision of a dystopian future where there is only work for a percentage, and a highly trained percentage at that, then They will need to be quite strong willed to see a reason for carrying on.Many do not even appear to be considering that there is a future.


There is every reason to do so, not to sink into the pit. But they would have to wind back the years to a simpler life style.

And the high cost of living in today's society makes that very difficult.

Even Peterson falls short in answering this ' what is there going to be for me in the future' question.

INT21.
 
And these days it seems almost fashionable for young people, usually between about thirteen and eighteen, to have their own Social Worker.

Amazing really, all these Social Workers being about for them, given that there are waiting lists for people (all ages) to have someone assigned to them.

Social Workers deal with considerable or major or very significant (the wording varies across the UK) issues. Self harm, police involvement, public events and so on do not of themselves involve being assigned a Social Worker. You should know that, how long have you been out of the field for?

unrealistic expectations of what life should give them without them actually having to make an effort to attaine it ?

I am asking what evidence you have that people who kill themselves have "unrealistic expectations of what life should give them without them actually having to make an effort to attaine it"

There is no point in debating it unless there is evidence (rather than FOAF or personal anecdote) that it is so.
 
Evidence that people who kill themselves are slackers?

Let's re-visit this.

How do you come to the conclusion that I am calling suicide victims slackers ?

I though I was making it quite clear that I blame the lack of opportunity and particularly the increased problem of finding work in out incresingly automated world, as a reason for people going into a depressive state. And that they may see no point in continuing as they can see no light at the end of the tunnel; in fact they don't believe there is a tunnel to be found.
 
Frideswide,

It looks as if the last posts crossed.
 
thay have been brought up with unrealistic expectations of what life should give them without them actually having to make an effort to attaine it ?

You suggest it as a possible explanation. I have asked what your evidence is.

I can suggest that it is an over provision of welly boots with the toes made to look like frogs. But there's no point in considering it because there isn't the evidence.
 
If this isn't a private thread...
When I did a brief study of suicide in Sociology at Poly in 1984, the suicide rate in England and Wales was just over 4,000 a year. The figure hadn't significantly changed over the previous 10 years and I was told it probably wouldn't over the next decade. If the number of suicides in the UK (ie inc NI and Scotland) in 2017 was 4,382, then the shock headlines must relate to changes in the gender balance and/or the age breakdown rather than the rock-steady total deaths.
Incidentally, I read that suicide statistics in Ireland (at least in the '80's) were practically meaningless - the stories of suicide notes found and hidden by Catholic family members were probably a myth (certainly difficult to prove). But a Coroner whose jurisdiction covered a river near Dublin never gave a verdict of suicide, every body recovered was a result of accidental drowning. I also think there is a big difference between the UK and the US in the number of suicides by deliberate vehicle crashes (I've earmarked the cliff in Cornwall where I'm taking my motorbike one day) - crashes in this country tend to be all treated as accidental.
Finally I have just read some of the stats on Wiki - 55 recent suicides associated with Helium, a significant rise apparently - what the ??
 
I am asking what evidence you have that people who kill themselves have "unrealistic expectations of what life should give them without them actually having to make an effort to attaine it"

There is no point in debating it unless there is evidence (rather than FOAF or personal anecdote) that it is so.

In post #3 above, in a response to Coal, I wrote..

..Is it possibly because they have been brought up with unrealistic expectations of what life should give them without them actually having to make an effort to attain it ...



It is suggested as a possibility. why do you have a problem with this ?

INT21.
 
55 recent suicides associated with Helium

Is that like this earlier thread on here? Or inhaling it? Being hit on the head by a falling cylinder? I'm just boggling here!

Not suggesting the Weather Balloon was helium, just extrapolating!
 
post 38 above.

I've read it. Another five seconds I will never get back.

You intrigue me.

Every time I suggest a reasonable possibility (which your frog wellies isn't (unless you have evidence to the contrary)) you ask me for the evidence.
We are hypothesizing here. Unless the deceased has left a not explain why he/she did it, then we will never really know.
I ask you, is it not a reasonable hypothesis that contemplating a rather bleak future of unemployment, which puts the male in a lower position when being ranked as a potential breadwinner, would that not be reason enough to end it all rather than face what some may consider to be a humiliating outlook ?
 
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If this isn't a private thread...
When I did a brief study of suicide in Sociology at Poly in 1984, the suicide rate in England and Wales was just over 4,000 a year. The figure hadn't significantly changed over the previous 10 years and I was told it probably wouldn't over the next decade. If the number of suicides in the UK (ie inc NI and Scotland) in 2017 was 4,382, then the shock headlines must relate to changes in the gender balance and/or the age breakdown rather than the rock-steady total deaths.
Incidentally, I read that suicide statistics in Ireland (at least in the '80's) were practically meaningless - the stories of suicide notes found and hidden by Catholic family members were probably a myth (certainly difficult to prove). But a Coroner whose jurisdiction covered a river near Dublin never gave a verdict of suicide, every body recovered was a result of accidental drowning. I also think there is a big difference between the UK and the US in the number of suicides by deliberate vehicle crashes (I've earmarked the cliff in Cornwall where I'm taking my motorbike one day) - crashes in this country tend to be all treated as accidental.
Finally I have just read some of the stats on Wiki - 55 recent suicides associated with Helium, a significant rise apparently - what the ??
i posted some stats on the previous page which implies rates in the UK are the lowest for decades.

I think the shock headlines are about suicide being the highest cause of death for young men, NOT specially that there are lots of suicides. Just speculating, but maybe 20 years ago more young men died in other ways- car accidents, drugs, juvenile cancer? who knows. But I guess if those reasons for death have been solved, suddenly suicide numbers start to look worse.
 
I suspect that the deaths Bad Bungle is refering to are caused by lack of Oxygen through inhaling the Helium.
 
I ask you, is it not a reasonable hypothesis that contemplating a rather bleak future of unempluyment, which puts the male in a lower position when being ranked as a potential breadwinner, would not be reason enough to end it all rather than face what some may consider to be a humiliating outlook ?

This is a discussion board. Asking for evidence, if any, is something we do.
 
... I can only base this on experience.
I have know quite a few women who have taken a handful of tablets then got someone to rush them to A&E to have their stomach pumped out before the effects could become fatal. And they have been careful not to use tablets, the effect of which, cannot be reversed or stopped.
In all these cases it has been a cry for help.
And also, it has to be said (because it is true) that they are reacting to having made their own lives a total mess.

I can understand that ... In my younger years (1960's / 1970's) the females I knew who were known to have attempted suicide always used the overdose approach. These were all teens or twenty-somethings, all of whom had access to potentially lethal prescription drugs (in most cases, their own). None of them succeeded in killing themselves, but some were institutionalized as a result.

To the best of my knowledge, a prescription drug OD was the most readily available option in all cases. My point is that availability of the means was limited, and this was the most likely reason for using the pills strategy.

Later female suicides with which I've been familiar diversified beyond pills to other means (e.g., suffocation; firearm). This tends to support the notion that access to lethal means can vary.

With the exception of extremely toxic substances, attempting self-extinction with pills or poisons is a comparatively indirect procedure. Popping the pills in your mouth and swallowing them doesn't kill you immediately. It takes a while. Your body has a chance to react and purge the poison (e.g., via vomiting). There's time for someone to discover you and get you to the emergency room. In the mean time, you're probably incapable of action and subject to whatever someone else may do. In other words, taking poison / pills represents casting your fate to the winds rather than 'sealing the deal' all at once.

Using a gun is far more direct - it works instantaneously, and the intended outcome is practically guaranteed to result.

IMHO a lot of the purported differences between male and female suicides relate to availability of means, with females having to rely on indirect means more than males.

A couple of the teen-era female suicide attempts were by girls who later admitted they'd been aiming for attention as much as death (but didn't care in the moment about which one they'd receive). The later ones were arranged to ensure death would precede discovery / attention.

Unless it's personally confessed (in writing before; by any means after an unsuccessful attempt), I tend to be skeptical of the 'cry for help' attribution. It's too easy a way for everyone else to cursorily dodge any personal responsibility for letting the victim's situation get out of hand. It's the safest of all 'mind fucks' (in the old group psychotherapy sense).
 
Unless it's personally confessed (in writing before; by any means after an unsuccessful attempt), I tend to be skeptical of the 'cry for help' attribution. It's too easy a way for everyone else to cursorily dodge any personal responsibility for letting the victim's situation get out of hand. It's the safest of all 'mind fucks' (in the old group psychotherapy sense).

And it is the most vile weapon someone can use on someone else. Particularly in a relationship.

Believe me, I know all about that aspect of this.

It's hideous.
 
I do see what you mean. And these days it seems almost fashionable for young people, usually between about thirteen and eighteen, to have their own Social Worker. maybe if they were to take more notice of how the future is going to work out for their generation they would be better informed. Not as though it would necessarily make the situation any netter for them. If one has a 20/20 vision of a dystopian future where there is only work for a percentage, and a highly trained percentage at that, then They will need to be quite strong willed to see a reason for carrying on.Many do not even appear to be considering that there is a future. ...

At the most fundamental level, I blame certain interrelated global / societal trends for aggravating the situation:

- a massive acceleration in the tempo of modern lifestyles
- a corresponding increase in the complexity of modern living
- a prioritization on immediacy and convenience (instilled by those who profit from selling it)
- the bias immediacy induces toward demanding quick results
- the bias convenience induces toward presuming 'no effort necessary'

The result is a level of naive inexperience and passive receptivity that is greater than was tolerated in past times and which lingers for much longer that it once did.

There's no shame in needing a social worker to aid you. IMHO there is cause for shame if you don't seriously take steps to 'deal with it' before simply giving up and calling for assistance. Life isn't a drive-thru convenience; much assembly is required.
 
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