Sunken Antiquity: Ancient Sites Flooded By Rising Seas

rynner2

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#1
This thread has been spun off from the discussion of Graham Hancock's Flooded Kingdoms series:

https://forums.forteana.org/index.php?threads/flooded-kingdoms-graham-hancock.2261/

Flooded Kingdoms of the Ice Age (C4 last night), presented by Graham Hancock.

...

I think it's a fascinating hypothesis, and it was reasonably presented (ie, no shock-horror tactics) by a very modest GH.

This episode focused mostly on Malta, above and below water, and the 'Bimini Road'. Intrigueing stuff.
 
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_Lizard23_

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#2
I saw it and enjoyed it.
I thought his argument that there could be important early archeological sites under water, flooded at the end of the ice age etc was perfectly reasonable and well put but I didn't see anything in the presented evidence that was conclusive and he had a bad habit of making unsubstantiated claims in such a way as to try and make them seem perfectly reasonable too ... and he lost my sympathy completely when talking about the underwater "road" in the carribbean and how thousands of tons of granite had been removed from it ..... he said the only evidence available for this was the memory of some old guy watching it happen as a kid .... but surely there would have been all sorts of paperwork etc associated with this if it were true ... ships' logs, bills of sail etc etc... it was only the twenties for god's sake ... so he ended up sounding a bit of a shyster which is unfortunate as, as i said, the basic premise seems pretty sound.
Ah well.
 
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Anonymous

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lizard23 said:
... and he lost my sympathy completely when talking about the underwater "road" in the carribbean and how thousands of tons of granite had been removed from it ..... he said the only evidence available for this was the memory of some old guy watching it happen as a kid .... but surely there would have been all sorts of paperwork etc associated with this if it were true ... ships' logs, bills of sail etc etc... it was only the twenties for god's sake ... so he ended up sounding a bit of a shyster
Documentation might be lacking if the removal of the granite might have been construed as an illegal act.

Bimini aside, there is now ample suggestive evidence in support of Hancock's arguments. The great difficulty, of course, for institutional archaeology, is the acceptance that architectural civilisation may be much older than supposed. Livelihoods and reputations rest on accepted dogma - which is a much stronger force than any new scientific evidence that might come along to challenge it, particularly if it arises in another discipline.

It seems to me that Geology is proving to be Archaeology's great nemesis, in danger of censure for overstepping boundaries ... Similarly, geological and geo-climatological evidence now gives dates for massive sea-level changes that may account for numerous drowned cultures, siding more with ancient flood legends than with land-based archaeological chronologies.

On the whole, I believe Hancock, a non-specialist, is doing a fair job. As he said on the programme, he doesn't have the resources of the archaeological institutes, but can merely point the way as best he can. The trouble is, those institutions are resentful of a maverick investigator embarassing them in their own area of expertise - which is why they will largely try to ridicule or ignore Hancock's findings rather than go look-see for themselves. Because if even one submerged site proves to be undeniably man-made, then it clearly demands a major revision of accepted archaeological history. ...
 
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Anonymous

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#4
Speaking of flooded kingdoms, can anyone shed any light on the legend of a lost city off the south coast of Menorca, at Son Bou? I read a tiny bit about it, but can't find anything else.

Any info gratefully received.

Fizz
 

intaglio

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#5
... Cornwall has it's own sunken kingdom, the Isles of Scilly (never call them the Scilly Isles). Ancient field boundaries run under the the sea. Not extremely old but nice
 
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rynner2

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#6
... (I)f the sea-level rise was fast enough to totally disrupt trade and the production of food then there would have been a population crash, with the survivors reduced to subsistence levels for many generations, until their numbers built up again.

How fast is fast enough? Imagine the devastation of the modern world if sea-level were to rise one foot per year for the next 20 years. Major cities like London, and whole countries like the Netherlands and Bangladesh would be swamped, and their displaced populations would put an incredible strain on the resources of neighbouring regions.

Is there a mechanism for such a fast rise? Some meteorologists and geophysicists think that climate has two stable states, Ice Age and Warm, and that the switch from one to the other can occur in a timescale of decades. ...
 
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rynner2

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#7
Bump!

Loads of sites here on Climate Flip-Flops

So there certainly are plausible mechanisms for rapid climate change, and hence for rapid changes in sea level.

Also I have read that genetic evidence does indicate that the human population has been through dramatic population crashes, amounting to near-extinction events. Major climate changes, with their associated upheavals, could be the cause of these 'bottlenecks'. There's plenty on the web about this:this site links a bottleneck to the ice age.
 

many_angled_one

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#8
It still amazes me that some people have such a hard time believing that ancient cities and town were destroyed with the rise of the seas.

All you have to do is to look at the locations of modern cities and towns to see that lots are on the coastlines & rivers.. a lot for exaclty the same reasons as those thousands of years ago. After all the sea & rivers are great sources of food so of course ancient people would have lived there...why not? I'm sure ancient man liked the beaches as much as we do!

As to their memories/knowledge dying ...what use is advanced knowledge when you are struggling to survive, with the loss of their homes & familiar hunting grounds most of them probably died trying to find a safe new one. And the surrounding countryside away from their town or city would have been mostly wild with many dangerous animals.
 

rynner2

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#9
Land bridge between India and Sri Lanka man-made, according to this article.

I think that date even trumps Hancock!


I'll see if I can find a NASA link. Yes, several image links HERE.
 
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Anonymous

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#10
Saw this story (on the BBC?) earlier today and didn't know what to make of it. 17,500 years? Any speculation as to who built it?
 

Cult_of_Mana

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#11
rynner said:
Land bridge between India and Sri Lanka man-made, according to this article.

I think that date even trumps Hancock!


I'll see if I can find a NASA link. Yes, several image links HERE.
Where do they get these dates from?

Sorry guys but I think the 'bridge' is a natural phenomenom in the same vein as the Giant's Causeway in Ireland. See here and here for links to some online encyclopaedias.

There are plans to build a modern bridge linking Sri Lanka to India across the strait. There seems to be a fair amount of political hooha surrounding the project. I'd provide a link but my browser is throwing a sulk on this one. Have a google.
 

rynner2

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#12
Slightly OT, as this is not about lost civilizations:

Goodwin Sands consisted at one time of low land fenced from the sea by a wall, belonging to Earl Godwin or Goodwin. William the Conqueror bestowed them on the abbey of St Augustine, at Canterbury, and the abbot allowed the sea-wall to fall into a dilapidated state, so that the sea broke through in 1100 and inundated the whole.

Brewer, 1894

I found that interesting, having sailed around the sands many times. Brewer links it to this:

Tenterden Tenterden steeple was the cause of Goodwin Sands. The reason alleged is not obvious; an apparent non-sequitor. Mr. More, being sent with a commission into Kent to ascertain the cause of the Goodwin Sands, called together the oldest inhabitants to ask their opinion. A very old man said, "I believe Tenterden Steeple is the cause."

This reason seemed ridiculous enough, but the fact is, the Bishop of Rochester applied the revenues for keeping clear the Sandwich haven to the building of Tenterden steeple.
*Some say the stone collected for strengthening the wall was used for building the church tower.

Two different stories. The second seems unlikely, as ceasing some harbour dredging would be unlikely to build up a large offshore sandbank. I suspect the old man was confused, and applying the term Goodwin Sands to the sands silting up the river leading to Sandwich. (There is also another sandbank, south of Ramsgate, between Sandwich and the Goodwins.)

The area today:
 

rynner2

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#13
According to Nigel Pennick, Lost Lands and Sunken Cities, the island that became the Goodwins was called Lomea, and it was flooded at Martinmas, 1099.

Its owner, Earl Godwin, was the father of King Harold II who died at Hastings. But confusingly, there was a Bishop Godwine of Rochester (1011), and a Godwine, bishop at St Martin's, Canterbury (1061), Anglo-Saxon Chronicles, as well as other Godwines around the country.

Lomea had many thousand acres of "goodlie pasture": now the sands are about 10 x 7 miles in extent.
 

rynner2

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#14
SunkenTemple off Taiwan
Details about an undersea site reportedly containing ancient city walls more than 10,000 years old will soon be unveiled as the government announced its support for an exploratory project yesterday.
Huang Yung-chuan (¶À¥Ã¤t), deputy director of the National Museum of History, announced the project in a press conference.

The site, located between Hsichi island (¦è¦NÀ¬) and Tungchi island (ªF¦NÀ¬), which belong to Penghu County, has attracted the attention of a group of experienced divers since August because of local legend regarding an undersea temple.

"After numerous attempts, we finally discovered the stone walls at the northeast side of Tungchi island at the end of September," said Steve Shieh (Á·sÄf), chairman of the Chinese Dolphin Diving Club.

"These stone walls are on average 1m high and 50cm wide. They are about 100m long. Our water sonar date revealed there are about five such stone walls at the site," said Shieh.

The Public Television Service Foundation (PTSF) deployed a team to the archeological site to shoot film of the walls.

"When I was examining the stone walls, I found heaps of coral pieces and pebbles at the leeward sides of the walls. These could hardly be natural accumulations," said Ke Chin-yuan (¬_ª÷·½), an editor from PTSF.

Huang said the accumulation of coral pieces and pebbles is only one piece of evidence proving the stone walls may have been built by humans.

"The walls are very straight and only 50cm wide. It is extremely rare for natural forces to form such straight and thin walls," Huang said.

Huang said these walls could even have been built about 10,000 years ago.

Tian Wen-miin (¥Ð¤å±Ó), associated professor from the National Sun Yat-sen University's department of marine environment, presented three sonar graphs in the press conference.

"These sonar graphs show the seabed around the site is very even. However, at near the stone walls there are many regular protrusions that look like alleys, staircases, walls and stages," Tian said.
This story has been viewed 2330 times.
 

Bosbaba

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#16
Lost cities

Saw part of a documentary on the flooded cities found off the north west Indian coast that are believed to have been flooded toward the end of the last ice age. The programme was very interesting and facts were well presented. It presents a very interesting hypothesis and in many ways also a lot of hope if it is true that the human species follows a cycle of building up toward high culture, decline, then building up again, etc.
 

rynner2

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#17
Again, not strictly Flooded Kingdoms, but this one should be of interest here:
Scientists in Australia and the UK have learned about rising sea levels by investigating a carving at an old convict burial ground.

The Isle of the Dead is a creepy place, surrounded in mystery and the subject of ghost stories.
It is located in waters just off the Port Arthur convict colony in Tasmania, Australia.

But researcher John Hunter is not interested in the 1,000 convicts buried there - he is fixated on a small carving on rocks near the waterline.

Etched in stone more than 160 years ago, the carving has yielded information about the history of sea levels.

The marker - a benchmark carved in a vertical rock face - was made by amateur meteorologist Thomas Lempriere.

It is thought to be one of the earliest benchmarks cut in the world and probably the first in the Southern Hemisphere.

However the benchmark was useless until its accompanying records were recently uncovered in the archives at the Royal Society, in London.

It had previously been thought the records, detailing levels in 1841 and 1842, were burned.

The information gives an indication of water levels before global warming, and can be compared with current measurements.

Dr Hunter, from the University of Tasmania, said it was an honour to use Lempriere's old records.

"When working with Lempriere's data, my over-riding feeling was one of privilege - the privilege of putting these records to use after such a long time.

"We have no evidence that Lempriere's sea level observations were ever taken seriously by the Admiralty in the United Kingdom or ever put to any practical use, until now."

The records, when carefully compared with current sea levels and movement of the cliff face itself, indicate an overall rise in the ocean level of 1mm a year - totalling between 16cm and 17cm.

Tidal expert Dr David Pugh, from the UK's Southampton Oceanography Centre, was also involved in the project.

He said: "This is an important result for the Southern Hemisphere, and especially for Australia, providing a benchmark against which Australian regional sea levels can be measured in 10, 50 or 100 years time."

Interestingly, Lempriere's work was not concerned with sea levels, but with attempting to monitor land movement.

Dr Hunter said: "The concept of the sea actually moving up or down in an absolute sense was only just being formed (in Lempriere's era).

"The first ideas that the volume of the sea could be altered by changes in the amount of ice on the earth were only recorded in about 1842, the year after the striking of the benchmark.

"It took decades for these ideas to take hold."
(Pics in the link.)
 

MrRING

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#18
Undersea Kingdoms/ Civilizations

I'm interested in what we know about underwater civilizations - but not the Atlantis mythos. Basically:

1) Places that used to be above land but are now submerged. Places like the Eygyptian palace, or maybe those square stones in Bimini (have they been proven a natural formation?)

2) Myths, (not of Atlantis) but other mytical undersea kingdoms from around the world.

3) This last bit is more a thought, but... if we've mapped the surface of Mars and seen the "Face" why haven't there been more anomolies using undersea sonar that might indicate remnants of earlier human settlements that were buried 'neith the waves, or underwater kingdoms period.

I Want To Believe (that the Hendrix song 1983: A Merman I hope to Be) will come true....:D
 

Dennis_De_Bacle

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#19
There was a programme about a search for evidence that The Flood myth in the Bible was inspired by tales about the Mediterranean Sea breaking through into the Black Sea when that body of water was a smaller frshwater sea, this possibly occurred during the Bronze Age.
Anyway here's a link you may find interesting.

edit: How could I forget about Doggerland where stone implements have been brought up in fishermen's nets from Dogger Bank.
 
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Anonymous

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#20
reegardin' yer third point

regarding point three; i don't really know but perhaps its simply because (or so I've been told) the overall sea-exploration budget is an absolute smidgen of the space-expo budget.
 

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#22
A North Sea, Stone Age, 'Atlantis'

More evidence, if it was needed that a lot of the archaeological record has disappeared underwater – do I hear Graham Hancock saying ‘I told you so’.

Apparently this one was found by accident.


Story at:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,1040382,00.html

Prehistoric settlements found under North sea
Peter Hetherington
Friday September 12, 2003
The Guardian


To the untutored eye, they appear like the anonymous pebbles fringing any shoreline. But the small cluster of rocks found eight metres (26ft) under the North sea were hailed yesterday as a stepping stone to the little-known world of Mesolithic people, perhaps shedding fresh light on a "prehistoric Atlantis" beneath the waves.

Unveiled yesterday by a team from the University of Newcastle upon Tyne the artifacts, including tools and arrowheads, have pinpointed the locations of two settlements of hunter-gatherers from the middle stone age.

The secret locations, more than 500 metres off the Tyneside coast, were submerged 10,000 years ago as sea levels rose after the last ice age. They could be the earliest underwater archaeological sites in the UK.

Although a fishing boat picked up a Mesolithic antler harpoon in the North sea early in the last century, experts believe the new findings could lead to significant further discoveries.

"Archaeologists thought the sites left by people who lived 5-10,000 years ago had simply been lost to the sea," said Penny Spikins, who is leading the international submerged prehistoric landscapes project at the university. "But our finds could change our understanding of the earliest occupation of the British isles. They open up a whole new landscape under the water, a new frontier for archaeology."

She made the discovery by chance while learning to scuba dive and would not reveal the exact location, fearing it might be overrun.

"To the average person they might appear like ordinary stones you would find on the beach, but to a specialist they were something very exciting indeed," she said.
David Miles, chief archaeologist at English Heritage, said: "We know that there is a prehistoric Atlantis beneath the North sea, where an area equal to the size of Britain attached us to the continent. This discovery gives us a stepping stone into this unknown world."
 
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Anonymous

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#23
Or...

Of course, this could all have been set up by Ethelred as some sort of elaborate, Fortean, practical joke! ;)
 

Breakfastologist

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#24
There are various british stories of sunken kingdoms around the place (I'm sure that Llyonesse was one of these, but I can't find any reference to it) - I do wonder whether any of these are survivals of accounts of the lost lands that bridged us to europe.
 
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#25
Ah just down the road from me :), it was on my local news. They've mainly been bringing up flint tools and things like that.
 

Timble2

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#26
Lyonesse

Lyonesse (one L) was suppose to have stretched from Cornwall to the Scilly Isles.

It is supposed to have sunk in single night with only one survivor who rode his horse ahead of the advancing waves. He had a good Cornish name, which I’ve completely forgotten.

It’s partly tied in with the Arthurian legends, Tristran (of 'and Isolde') was supposed to have originated there.

BTW the Scilly Isles were once bigger and several were joined together in relatively recent times, which may partly account for the stories.

EDIT:
Just found this on 'The Modern Antiquarian':
http://www.themodernantiquarian.com/browse.php?site_id=4641
 
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Anonymous

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#27
Re: Lyonesse

Timble said:
Lyonesse (one L) was suppose to have stretched from Cornwall to the Scilly Isles.

It is supposed to have sunk in single night with only one survivor who rode his horse ahead of the advancing waves. He had a good Cornish name, which I’ve completely forgotten.
Trevyllian, or something like that.
 
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Anonymous

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#30
Post Glacial Mesolithic, is very, very old. These people would have been hunter gatherers, maybe like Innuit peoples, or the Siberian natives.

The stony remains of ancient settlements, could be a real find. Usually, archæologists are lucky to find a couple of tent post holes, traces of charcoal, antler and bone and a few razor sharp splinters of flint, if they're lucky.

So don't get too disappointed if no massive ruins of cyclopean dimensions turn up, unless it's the site of the original 'Newkie Brown' brewery! ;)
 
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