Surviving Hominids, Implications Of Discovery

Tunn11

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I’m sure that this has been touched on in various places but I couldn’t find a dedicated thread and wondered whether one would be useful.
Supposing any one of the cryptid man beasts were discovered and proved not to be an ape but genus homo from “somewhere else” on the tree leading to sapiens sapiens.

What would be the reactions from, religious leaders, creationists, scientists, conservationists, etc.?

There was speculation that evidence of UFOs (ET ones!) would cause public panic. Religious leaders have stated that life may exist elsewhere but I don’t know whether they have speculated on hominid survival. What would the reaction to a live Neanderthal be?

If a population of hominids were found living in a National Park in the US how would they be dealt with? Suppose they could be aggressive on occasion and some of the disappearances were down to confrontations – how would the govt (any govt where they were found) deal with this? Would all governments find a discovery a problem?

Integration into modern life would be problematic and probably not wanted, so what is the answer? A “reservation”? Areas forbidden to H sapiens sapiens? How would any of that work?

I am speculating that evidence may be supressed for a secretive scarce species simply to avoid dealing with the above issues. How would the law deal with the rights of a different human species that may have different cognitive abilities and perceptions? It has been bad enough when different human cultures mix. Look at for instance the early American attitude to land ownership and treaties compared to that of the Commanche.

Any thoughts or links to discussions elsewhere on the forum?
 

Xanatic*

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If there are any surviving hominids they are probably on their way to extinction. Seeing how for example Kalahari bushmen are treated, I imagine they would be heading faster down that path.
 

PeteByrdie

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I used to spend a lot of time arguing online with young Earthers. They view all non-homo sapiens skulls as apes, and I'd imagine they'd extend that to virtually any member of the homo genus that isn't clearly human.

Each more mainstream religion would make up its own mind whether the new found creatures were human and needed converting.

I would like to think the homonids' environments will become protected and they'd at least be given the same status as protected animals, but I've a horrible feeling that won't happen. I don't foresee any great societal shifts. Scientists and people like us with an interest in the world will be fascinated, perhaps our worldviews will shift depending on what's learned about these creatures, but it'll be a few headlines to the rest of the world.
 

Victory

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In my faith (Judaism) it's discussed that there were various other hominid types in the past.
So if a few survived, it does not alter anything about our beliefs.
 

PeteByrdie

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In my faith (Judaism) it's discussed that there were various other hominid types in the past.
So if a few survived, it does not alter anything about our beliefs.
I'd like to know more about that. Do you have any links?
 

Victory

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I'd like to know more about that. Do you have any links?
Not online.

But we have beliefs that various other hominids existed on earth, hence the various different fossils found of hominids.
These are not believed to be direct ancestors, just earlier creatures.

There were also hominids whom today would be regarded as giants.

Adam and Eve are still regarded as the first humans, all be it with significant spiritual and physical differences from us.
 

Tunn11

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I thought there was a thread on this but I can’t find anything..

I’m wondering what the reaction of the Major religions would be to the finding of another hominid species. I mean Homo sapiens megapode or whatever and not a great ape with bipedal locomotion.

There have been statements IIRC from the Catholic church about finding intelligent life on other worlds but I’m not aware of anything on finding other human species here on Earth.

Creationists make a great show that finding a living dinosaur would prove them right, I can’t see how as finding the coelacanth hasn’t proved anything of the sort. But what would their reaction be to other hominids? What would be the reaction to God creating two, or more, sorts of man? Is this hinted at by stories like Esau and Jacob and Gilgamesh and Enkidu?

What of the other religions; Judaism, Islam, Hindu, Buddhism, etc.?

What would be the legal position of this discovery? IIRC H Beam Piper touched on this in the “Fuzzy Papers – which I have a recollection of seeing as a film but I can’t find anything about it.

Would these reactions form the basis for hushing up the discovery thus creating another conspiracy theory.

Anyone any ideas or insights?
 

JahaRa

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I thought there was a thread on this but I can’t find anything..

I’m wondering what the reaction of the Major religions would be to the finding of another hominid species. I mean Homo sapiens megapode or whatever and not a great ape with bipedal locomotion.

There have been statements IIRC from the Catholic church about finding intelligent life on other worlds but I’m not aware of anything on finding other human species here on Earth.

Creationists make a great show that finding a living dinosaur would prove them right, I can’t see how as finding the coelacanth hasn’t proved anything of the sort. But what would their reaction be to other hominids? What would be the reaction to God creating two, or more, sorts of man? Is this hinted at by stories like Esau and Jacob and Gilgamesh and Enkidu?

What of the other religions; Judaism, Islam, Hindu, Buddhism, etc.?

What would be the legal position of this discovery? IIRC H Beam Piper touched on this in the “Fuzzy Papers – which I have a recollection of seeing as a film but I can’t find anything about it.

Would these reactions form the basis for hushing up the discovery thus creating another conspiracy theory.

Anyone any ideas or insights?
There are Neanderthals, Denosovians, and a few other people that have been on the planet. If you have european ancestors you probably have Neandertal DNA, proof that they existed the same time as homo sapiens. So what is your actual question, are you talking about finding more versions of people or what? And why do you not think "god" did not create 2 or more sorts of man?

I can tell that you really don't like "creationists" based on your comments, so what is it you believe and what would your reaction be?

As for the legal position, what are you referring to? Are you referring to actual living beings that are not homo sapiens being considered people?
 

Xanatic*

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In the Bible you have the character of Esau, who seems to have been surprisingly hairy.
 

Tunn11

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There are Neanderthals, Denosovians, and a few other people that have been on the planet. If you have european ancestors you probably have Neandertal DNA, proof that they existed the same time as homo sapiens. So what is your actual question, are you talking about finding more versions of people or what? And why do you not think "god" did not create 2 or more sorts of man?

I can tell that you really don't like "creationists" based on your comments, so what is it you believe and what would your reaction be?

As for the legal position, what are you referring to? Are you referring to actual living beings that are not homo sapiens being considered people?
To clarify. Finding living representatives of other species of Homo Sapiens, ones that are known from the fossil record or any that aren't. I accept that modern humans are a mix of other hominids and that others have lived on the planet but so far we only have one recognised living species.

If god or gods created man I see no reason why he or she or whatever god is didn't create more than one type. However I don't hold any strong religious views so I'm asking what the view would be from those that do or what' if any the religion's stance would be if indeed it has one. My reaction would be that it no more proves or disproves the existence of a god than fossils and or DNA evidence do. However it is easier to say that fossils are somehow fake than it would be to claim living representatives of another human species are.

I don't dislike creationists, I've known a couple and we've had good natured debates and agreed to differ. They are welcome to their views, I just don't understand how finding a living, non avian, dinosaur would prove their belief, nor could they really explain it to me.

As to the legal position there are lots of living beings that are not human beings and are not regarded as people, in fact there are people who have historically not been regarded as people. What would be the legal position of a race of Homo sapiens x as opposed to Homo sapiens sapiens found living in the USA or Tibet? I suppose it comes down to what is the legal definition of a Human?

To complicate matters further what of Hominins, probably mid way between true homo sapiens and the great apes? There have been debates on the legal rights of apes, who I think are still regarded legally as animals; what if a tribe of living Homo habilis turned up somewhere?
 

PeteByrdie

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I don't dislike creationists, I've known a couple and we've had good natured debates and agreed to differ. They are welcome to their views, I just don't understand how finding a living, non avian, dinosaur would prove their belief, nor could they really explain it to me.
The creationist idea is that tales of living non-avian dinosaurs, pterosaurs, plesiosaurs and so on would disprove evolution, which in their minds means 'therefore, our God'. There's no reason some species of dinosaurs couldn't have survived the Cretaceous-Paleogene extinction, not least because, as birds, they clearly did but furthermore many other species survived that event to have living descendants today including our ancestors. All science says is that we've found no surviving non-avian dinosaurs nor evidence of their existence beyond the K-Pg boundary. Creationists seem to think evolution and deep time is dependent on dinosaurs having become extinct 66 million years ago. It doesn't. They contend that dinosaurs lived alongside man within the last 6000 years, and probably didn't make the Ark's launch. Finding a living dinosaur derivative would prove their assertion that dinosaurs died out a few thousand years ago and disprove they died out 66 million years ago, in their minds. Somehow.

I suspect they haven't failed to make you understand their argument, it's just so flawed you probably think there must be something you're missing.
 

Frideswide

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Unified Old Catholic: Glory to God for the diversity and wonder of the creation. How can we protect this new species and encourage it to flourish?

Caedmon's Hymn

Now must we hymn the Master of heaven,
The might of the Maker, the deeds of the Father,
The thought of His heart. He, Lord everlasting,
Established of old the source of all wonders:
Creator all-holy, He hung the bright heaven,
A roof high upreared, o'er the children of men;
The King of mankind then created for mortals
The world in its beauty, the earth spread beneath them,
He, Lord everlasting, omnipotent God.

Whatever the evolutionary twists and turns, if the new species are children of men or not, that isn't the priority.
 

Tunn11

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damn I missed that! will it bake cakes and run the tombola stall????? :twothumbs:
Or be allowed to join the WI?
Would She/He/It be allowed to become a priest or marry in the church?
 

lordmongrove

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Its an interesting question. Would a being in the genus Homo be given status the same as modern man.? Would it be offered a vote? The biologist Gregory Panchenko thinks that if an almasty baby was raised by modern humans it would learn to talk.
I think the more fundy branches of the major religions would have a total meldown. I saw a youtube posting by an islamic preacher telling his followers that Homo floresiensis was an ape not a hominin because there was no such thing as evolution. The moron had not a scrap of knowledge of natural history. There was another cringeworthy clip were two creationists bleating about how paleontologists made things up because of the reconstruction of the austrolopithacine 'Lucy' having feet when the fossil feet were unknown. Well the Lucy specimen did not have intact feet but dozens of other have been found with preserved foot bones and we even have fossil footprints that show the shape of the feet with flesh, muscle and skin on. The two arseholes went on to say that bananas were bendy because god made them that way so they would be easy for humans to hold. In reality they are bendy due to captive cultivation and selective breeding. Wild bananas are lemon shaped and have hard seeds. If you proved the existence of a hominin to these backwards types with brains stuck in the dark ages they would freak out or claim it was a 'demon' sent by the devil to test their faith or proof of god because he created 'cave men' and would not let them go extinct. You can't argue with mad men.
Also, if a population of these creatures was found in an area ruled by fundy god nuts, say the mountains of Afghanistan, would they be hunted down and killed out of religious superstition?
 
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Tunn11

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So to pursue my argument could a chimp join the Unified Old Catholics and if so could they become priests, etc. ?
Taxonomists may decide they are genus Homo but what would the law say and what would various religious leaders say?
From what @lordmongrove said the reception they may get could be downright hostile.
@kamaltik It imay similar to the discussion on alien life, but unless we are related in some way, I'd argue not quite the same. Hominids may have been here before us, do they have legal claim to the area they live in or even the planet?
 

BlackPeter

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I remember an SF book (can't remember author) which is written from the point of view of Samuel Pepys set in a world where another species of hominid survived and are treated as a lesser race and employed as servants which explores some of these problems.
 

ramonmercado

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I remember an SF book (can't remember author) which is written from the point of view of Samuel Pepys set in a world where another species of hominid survived and are treated as a lesser race and employed as servants which explores some of these problems.

This is it, Pepys featured in the story And So To Bed.

A Different Flesh is a collection of alternate history short stories by American writer Harry Turtledove.[1] The stories are set in a world in which Homo erectus and various megafauna survived in the Americas instead of Native Americans or any other human cultures.

Turtledove was inspired to write the story by a Stephen Jay Gould article that speculated as to how humanity’s distant cousin, Australopithecus, would be treated if that species had survived.[2] ...

And So To Bed[edit]​

1661: The story is made up of a series of entries in Samuel Pepys' diary. Pepys owns two sims (which can easily be trained in household chores) and contemplates the origin of the species. By watching these sims, as well as observing various other animals found in North America, Pepys develops the theory of evolution.

Only one of the diary's entries in the story has a corresponding entry in the real diary Pepys kept.[3] ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Different_Flesh
 

PeteByrdie

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I've been thinking a bit about this, and also recently been exposed to a video in which a well known creationist implied that homosexuality is a sin that should get the death penalty. I'm reminded of my days debating these morons, and of when they'd show hominid skulls and one's that superficially looked more ape-like they'd say were apes, and the ones that looked more human they'd say were human. They were never interested in a deeper investigation, even into the skeletons, because science deniers only look as deep as supports their viewpoint.

If this hypothetical hominid were capable of being converted by those people, they would likely be considered human by them. If they weren't, they'd be classed as apes. You can't be human if you're not capable of a knowledge of God.

I suspect Hindus will have less trouble. Perhaps they'll be descendants of Hanuman.

I think mainstream occidental faiths are very adaptable, which is why they continue to exist, and they'd find a way to incorporate the new species into their view.
 

Victory

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Judaism.

We believe that there were various other hominids before our type of human.

If some had survived deep in a jungle somewhere, then it would be interesting that they survived the flood (of Noah), but not a surprise that they actually could exist.
 

PeteByrdie

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Judaism.

We believe that there were various other hominids before our type of human.

If some had survived deep in a jungle somewhere, then it would be interesting that they survived the flood (of Noah), but not a surprise that they actually could exist.
That's interesting. What are the texts about them, and how are they described?

It also just occurred to me Mormons believe bigfoot is Cain. I don't know how they'd cope with a whole species of primitive hominids, but I think they'd adapt their beliefs.
 

Mythopoeika

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They are mentioned in the Torah.
But the mentions need elucidation from various ancient commentaries.

The skeletons of various hominids we keep finding...that's them.
That's interesting. Because the origins of the Torah are from around 8000 years ago, and the Neanderthals died out 40,000 years ago.
Denisovans died out about 14,500 years ago.
So there's a gap. Maybe some other hominids or even relict populations of Denisovans survived, enough to be recorded in the Torah?
 
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