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WW2-Era Civilian Exterminations - Why?

marhawkman

marhawkman

Justified & Ancient
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(This line of discussion has been spun off from the Swastikas thread.)

RE: "I've often wondered what would have happened if the Nazis chose the Latin cross as their symbol. Would western society shun it the way it shuns the swastika today?"
EnolaGaia said:
It's pretty apparent that the long-term Nazi ideological vision included co-opting, if not eradicating, Christian influences (seen as 'foreign'). The persistence of Christian institutions during WW2 didn't represent Nazi acceptance as much as a truce or time-out in the anti-Christian campaign begun in the 1930s. The long term objective was to eliminate the church as a power structure and consolidate its influence into the all-subsuming national / state apparatus.

As such, I find it unthinkable that Nazism could have adopted the Latin cross as its paradigmatic symbol.

Having said that ... I'm not sure other, similar, developments cast much light on the question. German military iconography emphasized the cross pattée (e.g., in the Iron Cross), which was a heraldic / military icon derived from the Greek or Maltese cross and adopted in the 19th century. This derivation induced a sort of indirect association with the Christian cross which probably helps to disconnect the symbol from Christianity in most folks' eyes. In stylized form the German cross pattée survives as a military emblem even though the Iron Cross medal was discontinued.

Another factor to be considered is that the swastika - though an important / highly symbolic element in many world religions and cultures - is not a 'brand logo' for any religion analogous to the Latin cross for Christianity. My point is that adopting a Latin cross - the logo for the Christian 'brand' - would have implied an affiliation or acceptance the Nazis certainly didn't espouse. It would have insinuated approval for a specific religious institution in a way that invoking a non-logo symbol from another tradition did not suggest.

Such an adoption would have been monumentally ironic given the fact the Latin cross was the logo for the primary entity they wished to effectively eliminate as an internal competitor to the unified state power structure.
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You know, thinking again, I've seen speculation this is why Jews ended up on Hitler's kill list. They had a sort of culture that caused them to do things the Jewish way and thus were something of a political sub-group that was not aligned with Nazis.
 
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marhawkman said:
You know, thinking again, I've seen speculation this is why Jews ended up on Hitler's kill list. They had a sort of culture that caused them to do things the Jewish way and thus were something of a political sub-group that was not aligned with Nazis.
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The relatively insular nature of Jewish communities and enclaves in Central and Eastern Europe helped foster their identification as discrete groups or populations embedded within mainstream society, and this in turn gave them a profile delineated by "otherness" that made them an easy object of (e.g.) resentment or criticism.

However, there were two factors that probably had more influence in forming Hitler's animosity toward Jews. He had a personal grudge against certain persons whom he felt had unfairly ignored or exploited him in his earlier years in Austria, and in Mein Kampf he explicitly stated it had been an enlightenment to realize that all these folks seemed to have been Jews.

The second factor was the association widely ascribed between Jews and (a) the "intelligentsia", especially (b) the radicals who'd been active in the Russian Revolution and the establishment of the Soviet Union. This alleged connection naturally loomed large in the eyes of the early Nazi Party, which initially self-identified as a radically anti-communist movement.
 
Also, there is always a preponderance within any society for a less successful group to criticise and/or attack a more successful group.
This is evidenced by the language used to co-opt a certain group with the profession that is being derided, hence we get 'Jewish bankers', 'Polish builders', 'Indian shops' etc etc
 
marhawkman said:
You know, thinking again, I've seen speculation this is why Jews ended up on Hitler's kill list. They had a sort of culture that caused them to do things the Jewish way and thus were something of a political sub-group that was not aligned with Nazis.
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There may well have been a certain level of regular conflict and animosity, caused partly by the German love of pork sausages.
I mean, Germany is a place where meat-eating (particularly pork) is a big thing.
Then there is the massive consumption of beer (it's got alcohol and is leavened).
To top it all off, there's the wearing of lederhosen.
 
marhawkman said:
You know, thinking again, I've seen speculation this is why Jews ended up on Hitler's kill list. They had a sort of culture that caused them to do things the Jewish way and thus were something of a political sub-group that was not aligned with Nazis.
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The Jews had it terrible in Nazi controlled area of WW2. But lets not forget the > 15.0 million Slavs murdered in the USSR murderer by Nazi Germany. Also > 3 million non-Jewish Polish civilians were killed. 1 to 2 millions gypsies exterminated. Hundreds of thousands of Czechs, Yugoslavs, Greeks, etc. It's been estimated that (40 to 55) million people died on the eastern fronts, the majority being civilians and the majority of them were not incidental war deaths. Germany got it back the Soviets were responsible for the deaths 1 million German civilians and 1/2 to 1 million German civilians died as a results of allied bombing.
Having served in the US Armies 82nd airborne division I can't even begin to imagine this level of carnage. a total of ~ 200k tanks and armed vehicles were destroyed in the war. Imagine the Battle of Kurst the largest tank battle in history, involving some 6,000 tanks, > 2,000,000 troops, and 4,000 aircraft., with > 2 k tanks fighting it out in a single day at Kursk. More than 1 million Soviet troop died crossing the Dnieper river. They had a reason to fight. the Nazi's planned nothing less than the extermination of all Slavs and Jews in Belorussia, Ukraine and all of European Russia. Stalin was known to say the death of a single man was a tragedy the death of a million wasn't. The Soviets murdered upon reoccupation: all Crimea Tartars, 1/2 the remaining population of Ingushetia (ethnic soviet republics in the caucus mountains). Also most Kalmyks (a Muslim ethnic group) residing close to the Caspian Sea. During the war Stalin relaxed many religous and political polocies. As the tide tured in 44 they stated to murder - deport, "basically back to business as usual for Stalin.
 
Another factor facilitating domestic and international hatred at the time was the rise of intense - even rabid - nationalism in the aftermath of WW1. A trend toward militant nationalism was evident across multiple nations in Europe, though not all these nations ended up giving control over to the nationalistic extremists.

This trend manifested itself as variations on the theme elsewhere. To the east the same nationalistic fervor was institutionalized in Russia as an aspect of revolutionary realignments. Across the Atlantic extreme nationalists gained prominence in the USA as an isolationist backlash against involvement in the European war, but they fell short of attaining any substantial traction.

Given this background it's not surprising that any discriminable group that didn't seem to be "with the program" would become the object of ridicule, bias, or worse. Whether it involved immigrants in general or resident sub-cultures / enclaves, it was a time when being different meant being uncomfortable.
 
Trevp666 said:
Also, there is always a preponderance within any society for a less successful group to criticise and/or attack a more successful group.
This is evidenced by the language used to co-opt a certain group with the profession that is being derided, hence we get 'Jewish bankers', 'Polish builders', 'Indian shops' etc etc
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I won't use the then term because it is now deemed derogatory, but it certainly wasn't in most peoples' mouths. Them 'sub-continental Asian shops' were the lifeline - they sold nearly everything when most local shops had already shut down, and were open all hours when supermarkets were still opening maybe 8.30am -> 7pm at most.

But yes, for a totalitarian regime any successful sub-community with their own culture is a target for deflecting blame and/or inflaming sentiment. Of course it is never as simple as that and there have been certain sub-cultures or minority groups who have been subversive towards their host countries.

Hardly ever a simple yes or no in anything.
 
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Jim said:
The Jews had it terrible in Nazi controlled area of WW2. But lets not forget the > 15.0 million Slavs murdered in the USSR murderer by Nazi Germany. Also > 3 million non-Jewish Polish civilians were killed. 1 to 2 millions gypsies exterminated. Hundreds of thousands of Czechs, Yugoslavs, Greeks, etc. It's been estimated that (40 to 55) million people died on the eastern fronts, the majority being civilians and the majority of them were not incidental war deaths. Germany got it back the Soviets were responsible for the deaths 1 million German civilians and 1/2 to 1 million German civilians died as a results of allied bombing.
Having served in the US Armies 82nd airborne division I can't even begin to imagine this level of carnage. a total of ~ 200k tanks and armed vehicles were destroyed in the war. Imagine the Battle of Kurst the largest tank battle in history, involving some 6,000 tanks, > 2,000,000 troops, and 4,000 aircraft., with > 2 k tanks fighting it out in a single day at Kursk. More than 1 million Soviet troop died crossing the Dnieper river. They had a reason to fight. the Nazi's planned nothing less than the extermination of all Slavs and Jews in Belorussia, Ukraine and all of European Russia. Stalin was known to say the death of a single man was a tragedy the death of a million wasn't. The Soviets murdered upon reoccupation: all Crimea Tartars, 1/2 the remaining population of Ingushetia (ethnic soviet republics in the caucus mountains). Also most Kalmyks (a Muslim ethnic group) residing close to the Caspian Sea. During the war Stalin relaxed many religous and political policies. As the tide trued in 44 they stated to murder - deport, "basically back to business as usual for Stalin.
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Yes. This is now more commonly mentioned in conjunction with the Jewish holocaust than it was say 20 or 30 years ago, though. The situation is improving, although still there are areas like the campaign against the Gypsies, the homosexual, Jehovah's Witnesses and the - in Nazi terms - mentally or physically subhuman - - that is those with physical or mental 'handicaps' - that get too easily overlooked.
 
Cochise said:
Yes. This is now more commonly mentioned in conjunction with the Jewish holocaust than it was say 20 or 30 years ago, though. The situation is improving, although still there are areas like the campaign against the Gypsies, the homosexual, Jehovah's Witnesses and the - in Nazi terms - mentally or physically subhuman - - that is those with physical or mental 'handicaps' - that get too easily overlooked.
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More Slav's were killed then all other ethnic -religious groups put together. The trouble was Stalin followed by Khrushchev played Soviet losses down feeling it was an embarrassment to the party. Post cold war est. run between 26 to 40 million. Greater than 10k towns, villages were set ablaze with the Germans locking the towns population inside the burning building with a few machine guns posted in case any slipped out. Russia 3rd largest city Kharkov was reduced to < 10% of the prewar population. The Germans keep a few around as laborer's. The devastation fighting and killing from the Volga to Berlin was a unprecedented catastrophe in history. Everyone east of Poland to the Urals was considered under-humans or sub humans, fit only for slavery or death. Himmler in 42 already had plans for the elimination of > 50 million Soviet slavs immediately after a victory over the USSR (which thank heavens never happen). The Germans recurited convict prisoners with a history of violet crimes for specials death squads in the USSR. The most notorious was the murder happy sadistic Oskar Dirlewanger Often considered the most evil nazi in the SS. They burned to death or tortured countless soviets in so called anti-partican sweeps mostly old men, wemon and children.
 
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EnolaGaia said:
The relatively insular nature of Jewish communities and enclaves in Central and Eastern Europe helped foster their identification as discrete groups or populations embedded within mainstream society, and this in turn gave them a profile delineated by "otherness" that made them an easy object of (e.g.) resentment or criticism.

However, there were two factors that probably had more influence in forming Hitler's animosity toward Jews. He had a personal grudge against certain persons whom he felt had unfairly ignored or exploited him in his earlier years in Austria, and in Mein Kampf he explicitly stated it had been an enlightenment to realize that all these folks seemed to have been Jews.

The second factor was the association widely ascribed between Jews and (a) the "intelligentsia", especially (b) the radicals who'd been active in the Russian Revolution and the establishment of the Soviet Union. This alleged connection naturally loomed large in the eyes of the early Nazi Party, which initially self-identified as a radically anti-communist movement.
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All valid points but the first is only part of an explanation.
Hitler certainly wrote of how he saw Jews as "Others", with different dress, culture and values.

But the logic of this being a reason for the Holocaust cannot stand on it's own...because all those with even one Jewish grandparent were subject to the Nuremberg Laws and the majority were murdered.

This included many thousands of blond haired blue eyed Church going pork eating Germans and Austrians, some of whom had no knowledge of their Jewish grandparent.
Who may have served in the Axis forces in World War One.

And whom are not considered Jewish under Jewish religious law.

Hitler's anti-Semitism defies logic and rationality.
 
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EnolaGaia said:
Another factor facilitating domestic and international hatred at the time was the rise of intense - even rabid - nationalism in the aftermath of WW1. A trend toward militant nationalism was evident across multiple nations in Europe, though not all these nations ended up giving control over to the nationalistic extremists.

This trend manifested itself as variations on the theme elsewhere. To the east the same nationalistic fervor was institutionalized in Russia as an aspect of revolutionary realignments. Across the Atlantic extreme nationalists gained prominence in the USA as an isolationist backlash against involvement in the European war, but they fell short of attaining any substantial traction.

Given this background it's not surprising that any discriminable group that didn't seem to be "with the program" would become the object of ridicule, bias, or worse. Whether it involved immigrants in general or resident sub-cultures / enclaves, it was a time when being different meant being uncomfortable.
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The Main country with nationalism on the agenda in the 1930's was Germany. Yes Spain, Portugal and Italy also were under the boot of facism. The trouble was that Great Britian and it's empire, the USA, France and with there purges the USSR all let there pants downs precisly at the time Hitler was building upon Germanys post WW1 grudge to again make Germany a (the) world power. Yes most ex-German vets from WW1 welcomed a strong Germany with open arms (especially one that was putting people back to work). A main point was except for a breif moment in WW1 in Prussia no allied power set foot on German soil during WW1, so they felt betrayed politacally, not defeated. However from my reading the civilian pop had it with the war. Hitler managed to but much of this blame on the Jews and other undesirables. But in retrospec Germany had been a magor military power on and off since the Tuetonic Knights. They took car of that proplem in WW2.
 
Jim said:
The Main country with nationalism on the agenda in the 1930's was Germany. Yes Spain, Portugal and Italy also were under the boot of facism. The trouble was that Great Britian and it's empire, the USA, France and with there purges the USSR all let there pants downs precisly at the time Hitler was building upon Germanys post WW1 grudge to again make Germany a (the) world power.
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Remember the depression. Britain and the US were too busy trying to sort that out to pay much attention to what was going on in Germany in the early 30's.
 
Cochise said:
Yes. This is now more commonly mentioned in conjunction with the Jewish holocaust than it was say 20 or 30 years ago, though. The situation is improving, although still there are areas like the campaign against the Gypsies, the homosexual, Jehovah's Witnesses and the - in Nazi terms - mentally or physically subhuman - - that is those with physical or mental 'handicaps' - that get too easily overlooked.
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Yeah the list of "undesirables" was pretty long. It got started with political dissidents though. So at least some of them had a reason for being on the list. Not a GOOD reason, but a reason.
 
marhawkman said:
Yeah the list of "undesirables" was pretty long. It got started with political dissidents though. So at least some of them had a reason for being on the list. Not a GOOD reason, but a reason.
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Not so much political dissidents as political opponents. Members of the SPD and Communist parties were detained from 1933, including those who were elected to the Reichstag.
 
Beresford said:
Not so much political dissidents as political opponents. Members of the SPD and Communist parties were detained from 1933, including those who were elected to the Reichstag.
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well, yeah, anyone willing to publicly oppose them got sent to the camps.
 
Beresford said:
Not so much political dissidents as political opponents. Members of the SPD and Communist parties were detained from 1933, including those who were elected to the Reichstag.
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Although Dachua opened in 33 the Nazi's 1st prison camp. The mass murders Millions vs thousands began after conquering Poland and really ramped up when Germany invaded the USSR. Point >99% of those killed were killed in the wars last 4 years. The comunist killed millions more than did the Nazis, but over a ~ 50+ year period.
 
Naughty_Felid said:
There are many factors why the Nazis decided to eradicate the Jewish population. The Real Dictators podcast gives a good overview of Hitler, who embraced hatred of the Jews to push the political agenda of the National Socialists which was about essentially gaining power.

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/adolf-hitler-part-1-birth-of-a-führer/id1516194847?i=1000514153819
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~6 million people of Jewish origins killed-murdered by Nazis. ~ (20+ to 30) million murdered by Nazi's total. You do the math.
 
In mediaeval times, Christians were forbidden to lend money for interest; it was referred to as “usury”. People, however, still needed to borrow money.

Jews, who were insular, and unpopular for being the “Christ-killers”, were denied entry into many trades or occupations. It was a natural step for them to take on the role of bankers, as the gentile population weren’t allowed to do it, and no-one cared if the Jews became still more reviled for extracting financial interest for their services.

Antisemitism took many forms. l remember hearing about a time when the Jews of a certain mediaeval German state approached the Elector with a petition to allow them to shed their Jewish names, and take up local German surnames in order to let them blend in a bit better. The Elector, seeing a double opportunity, agreed. The catch? The Jews had to buy their new names, and could only select from a limited palette of options supplied by the Elector. That’s why so many Jews ended up with names such as:

Hass (“Hate”)
Einstein (“One Ball”)
Schweinfuss (“Pigfoot”)
Etc.

Not for nothing is antisemitism known as “The oldest hatred”.

maximus otter
 
Jews have always been persecuted, throughout history. Hitler wasn't doing anything new.

[Political content deleted by Mod]
 
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The disturbing photo below isn't from Auschwitz, but is of a Union prisoner found barely alive, following the liberation of the Andersonville (aka Camp Sumter) concentration camp in the American Civil War in 1865.

prisoner.JPG
 
Jim said:
Again 6 million people of Jewish origins killed-murdered by Nazis. 20+ to 30million murdered by Nazi's total. You do the math.
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Naughty_Felid said:
??
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Apologies Naughty_Felid for confusion. I'm not anti anyone except for polotical-religous maniacs. my point is the tread goes back to the terrible treatment of the Jews in Nazi territory. By doing the math the total of those murdered by the Nazi killing machine was out to exterminate slavs as well, the trouble was that unlike the jews who maybe numbered ~ 10 million people in europe, whereas > 100 Million slavs came under nazi control. The so called slavicide gets very little mention. At least 15 million slav were killed.
 
This thread specifically refers to WW2 era, which was obviously a spike in civilian deaths, but we shouldn't forget the Armenian genocide at the hands of the Ottoman Turks, or the Rape of Nanjing by the imperial Japanese army. Then there's Mao, Pol Pot, Idi Amin and countless others.

The 20th century was the bloodiest in recorded history.
Modern humans have been around for 200,000 years or so, but we're not showing any signs of becoming more civilised.
 
Jim said:
pologies Naughty_Felid for any confusion. I'm nt really anti anyone except for polotical religous maniacs. my point is the tread goes back to the terrible treatment of the Jews in Nazi territory. By doing the math thhe total murder by the Nazi killing machine was out to exterminate slavs as well, the trouble was that unlike the jews who maybe numbered ~ 10 million people, whereas > 100 Million slavs came under nazi control. The so called slavicide gets very little mention. At least 15 million slav were killed.
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Yeah it's weird how people will talk at length about how horrible the Nazis were... and ignore most of the crimes they committed.

But yeah, the Bolshevik revolution was one of the worst atrocities in human history. :/ It also gets ignored. Heck the story of Anastasia Romanov gets told more than the "glorious" revolution.
 
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Cochise said:
There is also Japanese genocide against the Chinese. Roughly 6 million deaths, but they were only just getting started.

https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.CHAP3.HTM

(Not the best source, but somewhere to begin research if interested)
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Well quite. Japanese emperor Hirohito really deserved the death penalty at the end of WW2.
There is no way he wasn't aware of the atrocities perpetuated by his nation, which were every bit as extreme as those of the Third Reich, Ottoman Turks, Soviet Union, Communist China or anyone else.
Some evil bastards do seem to get away with it though.
 
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