• We have updated the guidelines regarding posting political content: please see the stickied thread on Website Issues.

Is Sweeney Todd's Barber Shop Still There?

MrRING

Android Futureman
Joined
Aug 7, 2002
Messages
6,053
I just got through reading the Crime Library's listing for Sweeney Todd and, in one of the graphics, it had a picture of what I took to be Sweeney Todd's actual shop.

Does his shop still exist, the swivling barber's chair to drop victims to the basement, the catacombs that connected Sweeney Todd and the pie maker? Did it get destroyed in the Blitz? or was the picture a mock-up?

Here is the Crime Library article link:

http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/weird/todd/index_1.html
 
Apparently, according to the Crime Library, Stephen Sodheim has claimed it was all fiction, but it seems to be fact. Check out the earlier Crime Library link...
 
Here is a quote from the Crime Library concerning truth versus fiction:

"Bond’s statement that Sweeney Todd is pure fiction is correct in one respect: the Sondheim musical, which has played to critical acclaim on both sides of the Atlantic, is a fictional account of the life of Sweeney Todd. Sondheim, who penned the music and lyrics, and playwright Hugh Wheeler adapted an earlier work by Bond, who tailored yet another (much) earlier work by one George Dibdin-Pitt. The melodrama by Pitt had its foundation in a contemporary account of Todd’s arrest, trial and execution. Bond asserts while Fleet Street was the home of many unstable and unsavory characters over the years, “no one has ever succeeded in finding a shred of evidence as to the existence of a Demon Barber thereabouts.”

That’s why Bond is a playwright, not an investigator.

The Demon Barber Sweeney Todd is the English bogeyman. That character older children call upon to frighten their friends and younger children. Unruly youngsters are cautioned against misbehaving with threats of being attacked by Sweeney and served up in a meat pie. To most people, the Demon Barber who used a trap door and trick chair to slaughter his clients was the stuff of urban legend. After all, the events connected with his story are almost unbelievable. His exploits prey upon very common human fears: being attacked while vulnerable, and being served up as food or unknowingly consuming someone else. Who hasn’t sat in the chair and felt a shiver as the barber or hair dresser takes out that straight razor, sharpens it on the strop and then applies it to the back of the neck? Or taken a bite of a meal and wondered just what was the origin of the hair in the hamburger? So it was for years, as the legend of Sweeney Todd was passed on from generation to generation, people wrote off the story as pure fiction.

But most myths and legends have a basis somewhere in truth, and Sweeney Todd is no different. There really was a mad barber, he really did use a trapdoor and straight razor to rob and kill customers, and most did end up as filling for meat pies. Extensive, painstaking research by British author Peter Haining has shown this without a doubt. Todd’s life and exploits are not nearly as romantic as Sondheim would have us believe, but then who would pay to see a musical about a psychopathic mass murderer unless there was more to the story?"
 
This is pure speculation, so please don't chop me up into little pieces ;)

First of all, bear in mind that barbers in the early 19th century were also often the local surgeon ("Short back and sides and a leg amputation please, my good Sir!"). Since no anaesthetic was available for these gruesome and presumably often fatal operations, a closed barbers shop from which screams enamated would not be that unusual.

Perhaps a particually ambitious barber/surgeon in Fleet Street tried to exaggerate his success rate by disposing of the failures? Chopping up the bodies and selling them on as "pork" to a pie shop would be a good way to dispose of the bodies, although this does imply the collusion of the pie shop owner.

It's equally possible that the modern legend is an amalgram of several different people - just as Burke & Hare were not the only graverobbers, Sweeny Todd may not have been the only demon barber.

As to the original question, if the Fleet Street shop still existed then it would no doubt have been turned into a tacky tourist "attraction" by now, complete with bad waxworks and worse sound effects. Sadly (?), no such place exists as far as I know.

Anyway, it's getting close to Sunday lunch time now... think I'll skip the pork.

Jane.
 
I don't think Todd Slaughter was ever suspected of being Spring
Heeled Jack, except in the movies, Ghost Dog!

His long series of filmed revivals of Victorian melodramas sometimes
turn up on the television at odd hours. They dated from the 1930s and
used a number of frameworking devices to establish their theatricality.
Their antique credentials established, they can then go on to approach
matters such as rape, illegitimacy and murder, which were more or
less taboo in a contemporary setting.

Slaughter is usually acccused of chewing the scenery but his real specialism
was a kind of dainty glee in doing Evil. I see that he did star as the other
Todd in a 1936 movie of the Dibdin-Pitt play, though I have not seen it.

Before I read this thread and the interesting linked article, I had assumed that
the Prest pot-boiler was a lurid piece of grand guignol with little or no
factual basis. I don't think I will eating many pies in the near future. :cross eye
 
Peter Haining explained the truth behind Sweeny Todd in a book, and seems to suggest a lot of fact to the legend.
 
Here is a link to PBS's Sweeney Todd site which discusses some of the early history (although they also believe it was pure fiction).

http://www.pbs.org/kqed/demonbarber/

And, it seems like an interested archaeologist would actually look at the locale where the deeds were supposed to be commited according to Peter Haining and determine if the architecture supports the story (i.e the placement of the catacombs under the street, maybe investigate the remains there).

I think it's a facinating subject, particularly if one could prove it did happen and back it up.
 
There was a case in Germany after WW1 when a man (or perhaps two?) were convicted of murdering people and at least some of the bodies were sold as meat for human consumption. Clothes were also sold on and it was this which led to the crimes being detected. I think most of the victims were down-and-outs and teenage boys.

Apologies for the lack of detail, it is years since I read about the case, but Hamburg comes to mind for some reason and the report of the case may have been in one of John Dunning's books.

I am sure I have read somewhere that a researcher went back through records of who occupied premises on Fleet Street and could find no 'Sweeney Todd'.

Has there ever been any date suggested for the Sweeney Todd events? I wonder is it anything to do with an urban adaption of the Sawney Bean story. Just that the names are similar. Sawney did exist of course and was a cannibal, but I can't see urban children being scared by a mad cannibal in a cave on a mountain. An urban version may have developed, but date comparisons would be of use here.
 
Here is a picture of where the shop should have been:

http://www.knowledgeoflondon.com/sweeny.html

And it looks like it connects with the old curch behind it.... somebody needs to have a dig!

Sweeny Todd, the demon barber of Fleet Street had he's shop at number 101 Fleet street, which now houses the Dundee courier, as pictured left. He would chat to his customer to find out if they were new in town, and if they were and would not be missed for a while, he would flip the chair over, that would cause the customer to fall in the basement, and knock them out. Sweeny would then cut their throats and would drag the body under the Church next door, and then along 20 yards to Bell Yard, where Mrs Lovat had her pie shop, where the dead customer would be used as pie filling... Very tasty

Bell Yard site of Mrs Lovat's shop
 
The church is St Dunstans in the West - you can see another view of the same two buildings here

Although the church does have a crypt the current building was built in 1831.

The website also mentions Sweeney Todd

The staple of Victorian penny shockers, the story of Sweeney Todd, the Demon Barber of Fleet Street, stalks the no-man’s land between urban myth and historical fact. According to some sources, Todd, a barber, tooth-puller and surgeon, did actually exist, and in 1785 set up shop at 186 Fleet Street. It is claimed that he murdered over 100 of his clients, before selling their flesh on to Margery Lovett, who owned a pie shop in nearby Bell Yard.

Not very good picture of Bell Yard which is where the Old Bank of England pub is.
 
Scarlett said:
There was a case in Germany after WW1 when a man (or perhaps two?) were convicted of murdering people and at least some of the bodies were sold as meat for human consumption. Clothes were also sold on and it was this which led to the crimes being detected. I think most of the victims were down-and-outs and teenage boys.

Fritz Haarman -

http://www.angelfire.com/me/girlsparadise/vamp25.html
 
mejane1 said:
"First of all, bear in mind that barbers in the early 19th century were also often the local surgeon...."

I'm sorry, but my understanding was that the last barber-surgeons (in the UK at any rate) were operative around 1740. So could you please elaborate?

Admittedly, barber-surgeons remained active in less-developed nations into the 20th Century. For example there's an Egyptian government directive of 1908 appointing the chief barber in each major village to function as the area coroner, which suggests that barbers were still assumed to possess extensive medical knowledge.
 
OldTimeRadio said:
mejane1 said:
"First of all, bear in mind that barbers in the early 19th century were also often the local surgeon....

I'm sorry, but my understanding was that the last barber-surgeons (in the UK at any rate) were operative around 1740. So could you please elaborate?
The Company of Surgeons broke away from the Company of Barbers in 1745 according to the RCS website, getting their royal charter in 1800. However, as surgery at the hands of one of the former became too expensive for the masses, many barbers continued to illicitly practise surgery and dentistry right up until the mid 19th Century.
 

The original link is long dead. Here's the salvaged text from the webpage cited. It was the intro to a multi-page presentation on Todd. The salvaged / archived webpage includes links to multiple other pages included in the presentation. You can go to archive.org (follow source link below) if you want to check whether any further text is accessible.

Man or Myth
'Attend the tale of Sweeney Todd
His skin was pale and his eye was odd
He shaved the faces of gentlemen
Who never thereafter were heard of again
He trod a path that few have trod
Did Sweeney Todd
The Demon Barber of Fleet Street.'

'The Ballad of Sweeney Todd' By Stephen Sondheim

In the introduction to Stephen Sondheim's musical thriller Sweeney Todd, The Demon Barber of Fleet Street, playwright Christopher Bond begins by telling readers 'Sweeney Todd is pure fiction.' For two centuries theater-goers and penny dreadful fans have been thrilled with the exploits of Sweeney Todd, the murderous barber who dispatched his customers with a flick of the razor and then had his lover serve up the remains in a tasty meat pie, but few gave much thought to whether or not it was a true story. Long before there was Freddy Krueger, or even Jack the Ripper, there was the legend of the Demon Barber of Fleet Street, and most readers assumed it was just that ' legend.

Bond's statement that Sweeney Todd is pure fiction is correct in one respect: the Sondheim musical, which has played to critical acclaim on both sides of the Atlantic, is a fictional account of the life of Sweeney Todd. Sondheim, who penned the music and lyrics, and playwright Hugh Wheeler adapted an earlier work by Bond, who tailored yet another (much) earlier work by one George Dibdin-Pitt. The melodrama by Pitt had its foundation in a contemporary account of Todd's arrest, trial and execution. Bond asserts while Fleet Street was the home of many unstable and unsavory characters over the years, 'no one has ever succeeded in finding a shred of evidence as to the existence of a Demon Barber thereabouts.'

That's why Bond is a playwright, not an investigator.

The Demon Barber Sweeney Todd is the English bogeyman. That character older children call upon to frighten their friends and younger children. Unruly youngsters are cautioned against misbehaving with threats of being attacked by Sweeney and served up in a meat pie. To most people, the Demon Barber who used a trap door and trick chair to slaughter his clients was the stuff of urban legend. After all, the events connected with his story are almost unbelievable. His exploits prey upon very common human fears: being attacked while vulnerable, and being served up as food or unknowingly consuming someone else. Who hasn't sat in the chair and felt a shiver as the barber or hair dresser takes out that straight razor, sharpens it on the strop and then applies it to the back of the neck? Or taken a bite of a meal and wondered just what was the origin of the hair in the hamburger? So it was for years, as the legend of Sweeney Todd was passed on from generation to generation, people wrote off the story as pure fiction.

But most myths and legends have a basis somewhere in truth, and Sweeney Todd is no different. There really was a mad barber, he really did use a trapdoor and straight razor to rob and kill customers, and most did end up as filling for meat pies. Extensive, painstaking research by British author Peter Haining has shown this without a doubt. Todd's life and exploits are not nearly as romantic as Sondheim would have us believe, but then who would pay to see a musical about a psychopathic mass murderer unless there was more to the story?

What follows is the true story of the Demon Barber of Fleet Street. There is little romantic or even melodramatic about the life and times of Sweeney Todd. He was an amoral, bitter man who lusted for money and was not averse to killing to get it.

SALVAGED FROM: https://web.archive.org/web/2003060...ry.com/serial_killers/weird/todd/index_1.html

index.php

 
A similar story from Berkshire (although not involving the consumption of human flesh (either deliberately or unknowingly)).

If more enterprising landlords did this there might not be so many closures of rural pubs!:)
 
https://historythings.com/meet-14th-century-barber-inspired-sweeney-todd/
Meet The 14th Century Barber Who Inspired Sweeney Todd
HannahOctober 6, 2022


The demon barber of Fleet Street has gone down as one of pop culture’s most terrifying figures but what if all the rumors were true? While Sweeney Todd first sprang into the popular imagination in the Victorian literature series The String Of Pearls, the man behind the barber’s knife might have been inspired by a real person who dates back a whole lot longer.

Sweeney Todd as he is known and feared was a fictional barber who lived in London during the 19th century. In a bid to up his profits and get rid of a few of the local population, the character infamously cut the locals’ throats, using their flesh in a collection of meat pies. So far, so gruesome. The real “Sweeney Todd”, however, might have been even worse, doing away with tourists to help balance his baking business.

To get to the heart of the matter, we need to journey back to 14th century France and wind our way through the streets of Paris. In the midst of a busy thoroughfare near the Notre Dame, a local baker was doing good business, putting out a series of meat pies that drew in the crowds from miles around. Strangely enough, the bakery in which these pies were created was located just next door to a barber, the owner of which was connected to a string of strange local disappearances.

What was unclear soon became evident, however, as police were pulled closer to the area of the crime. Drawn to the barber’s shop by a stray dog, the police discovered that the owner of the barber’s shop was a man who was already known to them, having fled his wife and home. The stray dog outside was the missing man’s own, attracted to the area by the scent of his long lost master. After police searched the area for the man, they are reported to have stumbled across a great deal more than they bargained for, uncovering piles of human bones and remains beneath both the barber’s and baker’s shops.

Taking matters into their own hands, police discovered that, indeed, the barber and baker were in business together, serving up a collection of “locally sourced” meat pies. The duo had been at their job for as long as 3 years before police found them, doing away with tourists and stray wanderers of the streets.

After being found guilty, both men faced execution, burned at the stake for their collection of crimes. In fact, the area was so caught up in the crime that many of the local shops and buildings were burnt, too, only to be restored to their current glory in the mid 19th century. Today, the building stands as something a little different and while you can still visit the site, it rests in a Parisian Police Department motorcycle garage.

While today, the streets in the area of Paris stand as if nothing ever happened, they were once the home of something a lot more sinister. All you need to do is look a little deeper into the history books to find the real event that inspired the chilling tale.
 
Interesting. 14th century French, huh? Any more research on this anywhere?
 
Lol - that the article got that wrong doesn't make me confident about about their research ...
 
Back
Top