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Bristol is quite an interesting example in so far as (in my opinion), the stick has been used to deter car use (congestion charge, very little and very expensive car parking) but not the carrot (public transport is woeful and still being cut back) to encourage alternatives. There is the point that cycle use is very heavily promoted, but in a way that seems dogmatic rather than practical. Anyway this does make me question what the motive is. Possibly masking revenue raising schemes behind a justification of pursuing a green agenda?
 
Bristol is quite an interesting example in so far as (in my opinion), the stick has been used to deter car use (congestion charge, very little and very expensive car parking) but not the carrot (public transport is woeful and still being cut back) to encourage alternatives.
Absolutely right - public transport is appalling. Again I'm old enough to remember when it was still city-run, and it was cheap and reliable. Privately run it's withered to the profitable, showcase routes only. There are moves to bring control back into Council hands, but this is now drifting into politics. Suffice to say they are putting the cart before the horse. Which might be their next big idea.
 
Absolutely right - public transport is appalling. Again I'm old enough to remember when it was still city-run, and it was cheap and reliable. Privately run it's withered to the profitable, showcase routes only. There are moves to bring control back into Council hands, but this is now drifting into politics. Suffice to say they are putting the cart before the horse. Which might be their next big idea.
As a student in the early 80s, I made extensive use of Sheffield's subsidised buses. The bus service there was amazing. 6p to travel across the city. If only councils would do this first, then talk about restricting car use. But they're doing it all backwards.
 
Last time I was in England, the 'mini' was very popular - do you still have them?
Yes we do. Still quite a number of the 'classic' version which was produced from 1959 (as the Morris Mini Minor) in various forms but retaining the main bodyshell, up until production ceased in 2000.
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Then there is the version which has been being produced by BMW (who bought the rights to the trademark).
Since 2001 it was marketed as the Mini Hatch or Mini One and has been through 3 generations, with the 3rd still in production, and each generation has had various body styles.
I don't like them. They are a bloated version of the classic that they emulate, and having driven one I know they go well, and handle good too, but are quirky and odd.
1677406116432.png


I would offer that the original 'classic' mini would be ideal for the proposed '15 minute city' as they were small and nippy, had good economy, but you'd probably get uncomfortable attempting a long drive, or going on the motorway.
 
And to be fair, if they did it in that order, then it's possible that there would not need to be punitive measures to discourage car use as it would become a relatively less agreeable option anyway.
Oops sorry this post was replying to the one before Trevp666's.
 
Parties in favour of the schemes hold 47 of the 48 seats, there is 1 independent councillor, I'm not sure if they support the schemes.
I wouldn't be surprised if all parties 'support the schemes', particularly in areas in which the parties vying for seats are told that the majority of the population of that area are in favour of it, whether what they are told is true or not.
Basically it's the equivalent of each party offering everyone a shit sandwich, the only difference between them is whether you want mayonnaise, brown sauce or ketchup in your sandwich.
 
Your sources for this?

Yes. But - what has this got to do with local planning debates?

This is the crux of it. I have been following the 15 minute city thing as Bristol is a prime candidate so it's big in local media. I think many have looked at the theory - that city planners went bananas for three decades prioritising car use over everything, and now are drastically having to backtrack - and construed it as an attack on personal liberty. As you yourself point out in the cited post, a few decades ago when car ownership was proportionally less retail and amenities were by necessity sited close to the communities they served or in town centres which were accessible by public transport from all districts. Then, as you yourself point out local authorities started encouraging out of town shopping as more people were independently mobile - more roads were built, often involving the demolition of swathes of housing and former retail areas, etc etc - and town centres and local shops, esp independents withered. And that's where we are. Problem is it's unsustainable on several fronts: fewer young people are driving, or at least buying cars, there is a real, societal move towards localism and then there's Net Zero, which is a real international target.

This argument is indeed nothing new. Local example - there's a huge, Georgian square in Bristol called Queen Square. Lovely architecture, greenery, trees and benches. It hosts events, food and music festivals, popular and appreciated. Between 1960 and 1991, however, it was bisected by a full sized dual carriageway. Nobody in their right mind lingered there as the air was permanently exhaust laden, the buildings black and the trees sickly. The council decided to divert the road and restore the park, to general appreciation however the outcry from the car lobby was deafening, citing.. well, infringement of their rights, liberties, "It's Orwellian!!!" etc etc. Thirty years on many can't even remember this. The road concerned has been incrementally moved further and further away from the old city and into a more sensible route where the only demolition involved has been 50s & 60s concrete. Most accept it, however the "but my car!!" section is as vocal as ever. My point is that these changes are generational. Equating new directions in town planning with dystopian prophecy doesn't usually come off.

Agreed, rhetorically. As usual the variables involved make a sinister masterplan very unlikely to succeed, but don't let that get in the way.

Exactly. There's a very vocal sector who will take anything that involves a need for shifts in societal attitudes and conflate it with some evil-plan to restrict everyone's liberty, because it inconveniences them in some way. In fact, as above, what they want to reduce the reliance on long-distance car journeys by making currently out-of-town facilities reachable on foot, cycle or public transport within 15 minutes. That's all it is, but the CTs will inevitably see it as step one towards quarantine because that's how they see everything.
I really do apologise and I hate to sound rude and thank you for the detailed reply but I'm no longer interested in discussing this particular subject. I am not a conspiracy theorist at all and I'm not interested in the likes of Alex Jones or David Ike, etc.
 
I wouldn't be surprised if all parties 'support the schemes', particularly in areas in which the parties vying for seats are told that the majority of the population of that area are in favour of it, whether what they are told is true or not.
Basically it's the equivalent of each party offering everyone a shit sandwich, the only difference between them is whether you want mayonnaise, brown sauce or ketchup in your sandwich.

There is one major party which opposes the plans, they have no seats on the council. Oxford City Council has a long tradition of independents being elected on local issues, if there were large scale local opposition to the schemes then you would expect it to be reflected in the elections.

I think it's most likely that the majority of the population support the schemes with the vocal opposition coming from the car lobby, conspiracy fans, and a conman who is trying to make money out of opposition to the plans.
 
As a student in the early 80s, I made extensive use of Sheffield's subsidised buses. The bus service there was amazing. 6p to travel across the city. If only councils would do this first, then talk about restricting car use. But they're doing it all backwards.

Subsidies means money, councils have to raise it somehow, the car congestion charges should go towards cheaper bus fares.
 
I really do apologise and I hate to sound rude and thank you for the detailed reply but I'm no longer interested in discussing this particular subject. I am not a conspiracy theorist at all and I'm not interested in the likes of Alex Jones or David Ike, etc.
That's absolutely fine. Enjoy the rest of the board .
 
I really do apologise and I hate to sound rude and thank you for the detailed reply but I'm no longer interested in discussing this particular subject. I am not a conspiracy theorist at all and I'm not interested in the likes of Alex Jones or David Ike, etc.
As regards the WEF / WHO plans I totally agree. It's not a conspiracy, they are out there in plain sight. We might argue about is every government signed up to them but again as you quote the use of common phrases suggests most are.

This is not anything new, the plans have been developing for 20 years or more. It's a long time ago that whats-his-face declared we are living in a post democratic age - though I'd question if we ever had true democracy. I think the result of the 1945 GE was as near as we ever got.
 
I don't want to sound rude or be disrespectful. I am not stupid. When governments world wide start repeating slogans of the WEF, it points only one way. 'Build back better' is one example. There are many others. Many current prominent leaders have been through the WEF 'young leaders' training program. I am not interested in a CCTV on a field or something that is something or whatever. I've never heard of it anyway.

The words hidden in plain view spring to mind. The New World Order is another WEF project nearing completion. It's been talked about for years or is that another new conspiracy theory? Like countries globally signing up to a treaty that gives the WHO complete sovereignty over every signatory country about how to run that country during the next pandemic? The next pandemic? Think about it? The next pandemic? Check it out although I doubt any will. I believe the vote in our own UK parliament is in the next few days. I also doubt much will get aired in the MSN. That's how stupid as a society we have become. We question nothing. We accept what we are told like sheep.

Anyway, I am through posting anything further on this. The evidence is all there for anyone to look at. All it takes is a little research even with using google. For some reason, people in general won't do that. It's a mystery to me as to the 'why'. It's not as if it would take days of delving deep into rabbit holes of conspiracy theory. So for myself, I am fed up of trying to point out the blatantly obvious and with links to back it up on this and some other subjects.

15 minute cities is just the tip of the iceberg. Do a little research. Look into it. Keep an open mind. See where the path goes. Follow your own intuition. That's hardly the words of a conspiracy theorist is it?

As posted above, For me, I'm done with this 15 minute cities discussion. I have nothing further to add that has value on here. The truth of it all is coming and what's behind it all, (including Covid and sorry to go off topic). It's just a matter of time.

I'll just stick to Fortean subject matter from now on. Conspiracy on here, or so it seems, although I may be wrong on that, is all about follow the herd. It's not about conspiracy at all and seeking out the truth of the matter. Turn off your TV's and don't watch, listen to or read the news or anything for a least 6 moths. Then things start to come into focus. Can any on here do that? Then ask your self that question honestly and then ask why not?

I would just say that one can have an interest in conspiracy theories and what the likes of Icke have to say, without agreeing with them.
FWIW, I feel that the Flat Earth and Birds aren't real conspiracies are puerile nonsense - but they certainly make for entertaining reading!
 
Probably less 'Conspiracy' and more 'Nimbyism' in a lot of cases.
People are happy to vote for parties that they feel they share their views on things such as 'the environment' and/or 'climate change' etc etc but suddenly get a bit concerned when they realise that the people they voted for just a couple of years ago are actually following through with some of the wackier stuff they were proposing and it suddenly means they won't be able to drive their PHEV SUV to the shops any more because there is now a wooden barrier filled with herbaceous perennials at the road junction they would need to traverse, and now they would have to go on a 7 mile detour to get to the Waitrose just half a mile away.
Just sayin'.
 
People are happy to vote for parties that they feel they share their views on things such as 'the environment' and/or 'climate change' etc etc but suddenly get a bit concerned when they realise that the people they voted for just a couple of years ago are actually following through with some of the wackier stuff they were proposing
People always want solutions that don't cost or inconvenience them themselves in any way whatsoever.
 
I'll just stick to Fortean subject matter from now on. Conspiracy on here, or so it seems, although I may be wrong on that, is all about follow the herd. It's not about conspiracy at all and seeking out the truth of the matter. Turn off your TV's and don't watch, listen to or read the news or anything for a least 6 moths. Then things start to come into focus. Can any on here do that? Then ask your self that question honestly and then ask why not?
You're so right about that - there are things that go on in our towns here, and I'm sure everywhere, that are told to appease the general public.
While all the time they are going ahead with a totally different plan of their own.
I've watched for the last several years and can see exactly what they're doing, and not doing.
Herd mentality doesn't help anyone, thinking beyond is best.
 
Plans unveiled for high-tech '10-minute city' in Seoul

/ 15 minutes is old news

https://www.cnn.com/style/article/unstudio-project-h1-seoul/index.html

This is marketing, in my view.

Most of the modern satellites of Seoul and newer developments are already built on these lines—thay's just a luxury version.

Songdo is the archetypical one.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Songdo_International_Business_District

Remarkable place, but—as with Poundbury on that other thread that's bubbled up recently—it still has a movie set atmosphere:

https://forums.forteana.org/index.php?threads/poundbury.15787/
 
Is the real conspiracy certain people within the fossil fuel industry using conspiracy theorists etc. to protect their interests?
Well there certainly seems to be groups jumping on the situation. What a traffic scheme in Oxford’s got to do with Piers Corbyn I don’t know. He lives in London I believe.

I'd add Right Said Fred & Laurence Fox who were at the protest last weekend as well.
 
Ah! Littlemore ward by-election - 2 March 2023. One of the candidates, an independent is opposed to the schemes another opposes the schemes but wants more bus lanes, bike lanes and bike racks.

https://whocanivotefor.co.uk/elections/local.oxford.littlemore.by.2023-03-02/littlemore/

https://candidates.democracyclub.org.uk/elections/local.oxford.littlemore.by.2023-03-02/sopn/
Also a by-election for Oxfordshire County Council's Rose Hill and Littlemore ward at the same time. The county council is the Roads Authority so it'll be interesting to see how the locals really feel.
 

Manufacturing Discontent The 15-Minute City Conspiracy​

But earlier this month, [Fletcher] evinced a fabulous comeback with a question to the Leader of the House, Penny Mordaunt, on a matter of pressing concern:

“Will the Leader set aside some time in this house for a debate on the international socialist concept of so-called 15-minute cities… ultra-low emissions zones in their present form do untold economic damage… however, the second step… will take away personal freedoms as well.”

A good article on the phenomenon (I hope it hasn't been posted already, I didn't get through all the posts yet). https://bylinetimes.com/2023/02/22/manufacturing-discontent-the-15-minute-city-conspiracy/
 
As others have stated, we have too much traffic, urban sprawl is real and now people are talking about having to deal with it now, not in another 30 years.

People who aspire to have a career in politics need votes. Our voting seasons are every four years for every level of government. People who want to stay in politics pander to those who will vote and some who have money that will come with their votes (political contributions).

The majority of people who can vote, don't. That is why you may have 40% of voting public (and these numbers are decreasing) and end up with 20% of total voting population making the decisions for the other 80%. Even these percentages do not account for the full population of a town or country.

WHO, WEP exist because that is one of the only ways that some of our problems as humans worldwide can even start to be addressed. We, ourselves feel like very little fish in a pond. But our role, I think, is to be aware of the functions and functioning of these entities. They need to remain global without a person within these groups gaining from them personally.

The opposite and, to me, odd reaction is that many mainstream people now are going with the conspiracy theorists and giving up their autonomy to an unknown and definitely not society minded entity.

I think that this, in part is due to social media manipulation as well as the apathy that most people have shown towards the world issues. @Trevp666 has mentioned the NIMBY response and yes, people will say "this needs to be done, but, by the way, not here".

Just as an example, Ontario tried to lower automobile emissions and did have a program where every 5 years people would have to provide a certificate from a Drive Clean testing facility. The vehicle owner paid for this test.

The problems? Only cars and only gas driving ones were targeted. Trucks and diesel were exempt. So along came the auto industry who invented SUVs. They were not classified as cars. Guess what became the biggest selling vehicle?

The other stupid thing the government did? The testing equipment cost the host company a pretty penny, but the cost they could charge for the testing was mandated by the government (of course because it made the program). The cost, in no way covered the expense of the equipment nor time taken to do the test. So there were some shady things that some companies did in trying to recoup their costs.

I had a vehicle tested one year at a place I can't remember. It was driving fine when it was taken in, but it failed the test. So I have to fix whatever was deemed to be the problem and retest. Ok. Except when I drove it after this, it gobbled fuel. This was noticed immediately by the fuel gauge dropping quickly, not a few weeks later.

My husband looked under the hood, and also asked my brother, who is a diesel mechanic to have a look. He found a wire that may have been snipped, but you can't prove it. Even my brother agreed as there was no corrosion on the wire and the car certainly was using fuel. The cost to have this repaired (because it wouldn't pass the test) could have been several hundred dollars. My husband went to a used auto parts dealer and was able to get only the wire and fixed it.

We then went to another Drive Clean testing centre to have it tested. Everyone knew that you never took your vehicle back to the same testing facility as the one which failed your car. Nor did you use them for your repairs.

So ideas can be good, but applying them without good forethought is the problem.
 
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You're so right about that - there are things that go on in our towns here, and I'm sure everywhere, that are told to appease the general public.
While all the time they are going ahead with a totally different plan of their own.
I've watched for the last several years and can see exactly what they're doing, and not doing.
Herd mentality doesn't help anyone, thinking beyond is best.
I agree about the herd mentality. Unfortunately, a herd mentality can and does occur in any part of society. Herd mentality exists in the conspiracy theory groups, even though these groups often criticize people who disagree with them that the critics have a "herd mentality."

Anytime a person belongs to a group oriented around an idea (climate warming, 15 minute cities are the beginning of the end of civil liberties, vaccines are worse than the disease, etc.), that frequently is the beginning of a psychological process in which the belonger increasingly identifies with the group belief structure, and rejects facts and critical thinking which disagree with that belief structure.

Critical thinking is hard work, and it is just easier to go along with the herd. If one identifies with the anti-establishmentarians - to use an old fashioned word from the post WW2 European socialists - then one has the added benefit of feeling superior to the sheeple/herd members. But almost everyone is in some herd or another; only very socially withdrawn people are the exception.


PS - So, how much do you want your taxes to go up to pay for solutions? I ask this so regularly here that it should be my signature line. :)
 
I don't like them. They are a bloated version of the classic that they emulate, and having driven one I know they go well, and handle good too, but are quirky and odd.
But those of us who DO drive them love them because they are quirky and odd. It's like driving a comfortable go-kart. Corners are SO much fun.

I would like to point out that I can no longer drive my Mini to work because the city council restricts the number of parking spaces that the University can have, so the University's answer is to ban people who live in certain postcodes from having parking permits. My post code is on that list because there is sufficient public transport to serve the campus. Well, there used to be. Originally there was a bus route that ran from the supermarket 5 minutes' walk away directly to my building, but Covid killed that one, and the new bus only goes to the middle of town and then you have to connect with another bus. It's about an hour's journey. I can walk it (and have done) in an hour and 5 minutes. There is a train, but only two an hour, with a 15-minute walk to/from the station at each end. Which is why I am a cycle commuter (admittedly on powered bikes) - just under 20 minutes on a good day, just over 25 minutes on a busy one. And my son drives my Mini to his work instead, ten minutes away...
 
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