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Some locations in London have a very low level of car ownership. Kensington and Chelsea 37%, Westminster 36%, Islington 26%, City of London 13%. Compared to the national average of 77%, these largely desirable locations have already adopted the 15 minute city concept, thanks to ubiquitous public transport.
You don't really need a car in Liverpool as long as you live within 15 minutes of the centre right now. I'd get rid of mine if i moved there - hire one if I needed to for a holiday or something.
 
as internet speeds across the country improve (especially if 4G/5G internet overtakes fibre in rural areas)
Good luck with that. Check extensively, and carefully, on internet availability, phone signals, and TV (if you watch it) whenever you're looking at anywhere away from anything smaller than a large town.
I've moved to renting in Flitwick, Bedfordshire, which is hardly what you could call 'rural' (okay...'semi-rural' at a push) and isn't dozens of miles from nowhere - Bedford is only about 15 miles to the north and Luton about 10 miles south - and yet we struggled to get virgin TV services transferred here and finally gave up cos they couldn't even manage to contact us back to follow up on our enquiry after multiple attempts.
Phone signal? Forget it. I'm on O2 and I get only the most weakest of 4G signals which sometimes disappears altogether if I walk the 100yds to the pub. My son has vodafone and is not much better - and from where I am sitting writing this I can see a mobile phone mast about 1/4 mile away.
So when we are at home we rely on phone signal via the internet router.
We are fortunate that we have a high-speed fibre broadband internet, but I think that is only by virtue of the fact that Virgin cabled all the roads around here only about 2 or 3 years ago (I'm told).
 
My productivity has gone up over 700% over the last 5 years according to my annual stats with no loss of quality - I have the perfect job for it. It's your classic back office job and I am the authority rather than the front line worker so no need to consult others when staff call me with a particularly gnarly and interesting query. I started working from the home in the pandemic and never stopped. I have almost completely stopped commuting 2 hours each way into the office and only go in for special face to face meetings - the last time was early December.

It means next time I move I will be able to consider areas I can afford more easily closer to where I grew up, which means I could finally move away from the London area. This will become more doable as internet speeds across the country improve (especially if 4G/5G internet overtakes fibre in rural areas) and as a non-driver (but maybe that could change) I will be keeping an eye on developments for innovative solutions. Up until now I have used public transport (a massive weakness where I am interested in and I shall be limited in where I can move), commissioned services such as removal firms and my beloved old lady shopping bag on shanks pony as my main travel and carriage options. I don't think the options are quite there at the moment but things are changing.
As you say @staticgirl the perfect job for working from home, many aren't and the structure isn't there to support them and maybe never will be because of the nature of the work or even ....cost! After all working from home is a massive saving for the employer.
Depending on where you move to you may find driving a necessity. I'm 20 odd miles from central London and it's a two mile walk to get to a very infrequent bus service or four miles to a better bus service and railway station. :)
 
It means next time I move I will be able to consider areas I can afford more easily closer to where I grew up, which means I could finally move away from the London area.

Yesterday evening, my cricket team's match was rained off, so we retired early to the pub and we discussed this very point.
My contribution was that, if Ernie does ever cough up a substantial win, I would go back to my Cornish roots and buy a nice detached home in Carlyon Bay (just outside my home town of St Austell).
I sincerely hope my children and grandchildren, not to mention subsequent generations), will have something nicer to look forward to than an existence in high-rise, high-density concrete pigeon-holes, as promoted by the 15-minute city advocates.
 
No we don't.
If that's how one wants to live and has the money for it, why try to prevent it?
I figure that Prof Thorne is another one of those people who either likes to tell other people what to do, or is cheesed off that his own living standards are some cramped 2 bed flat and want's everyone else to have to live in similar conditions, or both.
On another thread you were bemoaning rich people buying expensive beachfront properties but now you’re all for rich people buying detached houses in the country. Funny old world innit..
 
On another thread you were bemoaning rich people buying expensive beachfront properties but now you’re all for rich people buying detached houses in the country. Funny old world innit..
Those rich people I was castigating for buying beachfront properties were the rich people who at the same time were telling us that global warming was going to cause the sea levels to rise by metres.
People can buy what they like and live where they like, as long as they don't hypocritically try to sanctimoniously tell everyone else that they shouldn't also do it.

I would appreciate it if you kept to just posting your own opinion on things instead of trying to start arguments with your snarky 'out of context' personal digs at me, thanks. :)
 
Those rich people I was castigating for buying beachfront properties were the rich people who at the same time were telling us that global warming was going to cause the sea levels to rise by metres.
People can buy what they like and live where they like, as long as they don't hypocritically try to sanctimoniously tell everyone else that they shouldn't also do it.

I would appreciate it if you kept to just posting your own opinion on things instead of trying to start arguments with your snarky 'out of context' personal digs at me, thanks. :)
Yes, it's the 'Don't do as I do, do as I say' state of mind!
 
We need to get away from single detached houses out in the country, miles from services, that lock in high energy intensity. Moving forward, we need more compact developments that enable low-carbon, high-quality lifestyles.
The In-House GP and I are considering buying a small semi-detached house in the country, part of a 9-house development in the South Hams. This would mean us having to commute at least 45 minutes each way to work. However, the house is heavily insulated, has an air source heat pump, double glazing, an electric vehicle charging point in the back garden, and a part share in an allotment/orchard just over the road. No solar panels, but scope to add them as other houses in the village have them. Not all country houses are high energy intensity!
 
The In-House GP and I are considering buying a small semi-detached house in the country, part of a 9-house development in the South Hams. This would mean us having to commute at least 45 minutes each way to work. However, the house is heavily insulated, has an air source heat pump, double glazing, an electric vehicle charging point in the back garden, and a part share in an allotment/orchard just over the road. No solar panels, but scope to add them as other houses in the village have them. Not all country houses are high energy intensity!

There is a craze in Ireland for isolated single dwellings, no connection to sewage systems so you're depending on a leaking septic tank adding to the pollution of groundwater which their own water supplies are drawn from. Your house sounds good, whats the water/waste situation?
 
There is a craze in Ireland for isolated single dwellings, no connection to sewage systems so you're depending on a leaking septic tank adding to the pollution of groundwater which their own water supplies are drawn from. Your house sounds good, whats the water/waste situation?
Mains water AND drainage. A REAL rarity out that way, most of the places we've seen previously have been private drainage. Klargesters and septic tanks abound.
 
There is a craze in Ireland for isolated single dwellings, no connection to sewage systems so you're depending on a leaking septic tank adding to the pollution of groundwater which their own water supplies are drawn from. Your house sounds good, whats the water/waste situation?
Do all septic tanks leak?
 
Do all septic tanks leak?

If they are not serviced/emptied septic tanks will leak. Many are shoddily constructed. Part of the problem lies with a lax inspection regime.

Thousands of septic tanks are likely to be leaking and causing unnecessary pollution all over the country due to an anomaly in inspections and grant-aid to repair them, councillors in Cork have claimed.

There are an estimated 500,000-plus septic tanks in the country, mostly in rural areas, and local authorities carry out a relatively small number of inspections on them each year.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40916396.html
 
If they are not serviced/emptied septic tanks will leak. Many are shoddily constructed. Part of the problem lies with a lax inspection regime.

Thousands of septic tanks are likely to be leaking and causing unnecessary pollution all over the country due to an anomaly in inspections and grant-aid to repair them, councillors in Cork have claimed.

There are an estimated 500,000-plus septic tanks in the country, mostly in rural areas, and local authorities carry out a relatively small number of inspections on them each year.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40916396.html
I wonder if it's like with service pipes underground- that they are supposed to be laid on and covered with fine pea-gravel or sand to protect them from sharp and/or heavy stones, but often they're not.
 
The "Universe 25" social experiment merits a mention here.

In 1968 John Calhoun created a veritable paradise for mice. 4 mouse couples were introduced into a special environment, where all their needs, including unlimited food and drink and abundant nesting materials were within easy reach (no more than 15 seconds away). The lighting and temperature were maintained at a perfect level and obviously no cats or other predators were permitted to intrude on this mousey heaven.

The only limited resource in this microcosm was physical space, and Calhoun suspected that it was only a matter of time before this caused trouble in paradise.
As Calhoun had anticipated, the utopia became hellish within a year as the population density began to peak. Then population growth abruptly and dramatically slowed. Animals became increasingly violent, developed abnormal sexual behaviors and began neglecting or even attacking their own pups. Calhoun termed this breakdown of social order a “behavioral sink.”
Eventually Universe 25 took another disturbing turn. Mice born into the chaos couldn’t form normal social bonds or engage in complex social behaviors such as courtship, mating, and pup-rearing. Instead of interacting with their peers, males compulsively groomed themselves; females stopped getting pregnant. Effectively, says Ramsden, they became “trapped in an infantile state of early development,” even when removed from Universe 25 and introduced to “normal” mice. Ultimately, the colony died out. “There’s no recovery, and that’s what was so shocking" Calhoun says.

mice.png


https://www.the-scientist.com/foundations/universe-25-1968-1973-69941
 
The "Universe 25" social experiment merits a mention here.

In 1968 John Calhoun created a veritable paradise for mice. 4 mouse couples were introduced into a special environment, where all their needs, including unlimited food and drink and abundant nesting materials were within easy reach (no more than 15 seconds away). The lighting and temperature were maintained at a perfect level and obviously no cats or other predators were permitted to intrude on this mousey heaven.

The only limited resource in this microcosm was physical space, and Calhoun suspected that it was only a matter of time before this caused trouble in paradise.
As Calhoun had anticipated, the utopia became hellish within a year as the population density began to peak. Then population growth abruptly and dramatically slowed. Animals became increasingly violent, developed abnormal sexual behaviors and began neglecting or even attacking their own pups. Calhoun termed this breakdown of social order a “behavioral sink.”
Eventually Universe 25 took another disturbing turn. Mice born into the chaos couldn’t form normal social bonds or engage in complex social behaviors such as courtship, mating, and pup-rearing. Instead of interacting with their peers, males compulsively groomed themselves; females stopped getting pregnant. Effectively, says Ramsden, they became “trapped in an infantile state of early development,” even when removed from Universe 25 and introduced to “normal” mice. Ultimately, the colony died out. “There’s no recovery, and that’s what was so shocking" Calhoun says.

View attachment 66383

https://www.the-scientist.com/foundations/universe-25-1968-1973-69941
It looks like the mice, also, and crucially, couldn't leave their city.
 
The "Universe 25" social experiment merits a mention here.

In 1968 John Calhoun created a veritable paradise for mice. 4 mouse couples were introduced into a special environment, where all their needs, including unlimited food and drink and abundant nesting materials were within easy reach (no more than 15 seconds away). The lighting and temperature were maintained at a perfect level and obviously no cats or other predators were permitted to intrude on this mousey heaven.

The only limited resource in this microcosm was physical space, and Calhoun suspected that it was only a matter of time before this caused trouble in paradise.
As Calhoun had anticipated, the utopia became hellish within a year as the population density began to peak. Then population growth abruptly and dramatically slowed. Animals became increasingly violent, developed abnormal sexual behaviors and began neglecting or even attacking their own pups. Calhoun termed this breakdown of social order a “behavioral sink.”
Eventually Universe 25 took another disturbing turn. Mice born into the chaos couldn’t form normal social bonds or engage in complex social behaviors such as courtship, mating, and pup-rearing. Instead of interacting with their peers, males compulsively groomed themselves; females stopped getting pregnant. Effectively, says Ramsden, they became “trapped in an infantile state of early development,” even when removed from Universe 25 and introduced to “normal” mice. Ultimately, the colony died out. “There’s no recovery, and that’s what was so shocking" Calhoun says.

View attachment 66383

https://www.the-scientist.com/foundations/universe-25-1968-1973-69941
I think this is a known result to overcrowding, thought the experiment showed exactly what maladaptive behaviours resulted.

I had heard years ago that rats resort to eating their young when severely overcrowded.
 
I think this is a known result to overcrowding, thought the experiment showed exactly what maladaptive behaviours resulted.

I had heard years ago that rats resort to eating their young when severely overcrowded.

You're right and indeed John Calhoun did a similar, albeit somewhat smaller, experiment with rats before Universe 25, with broadly similar results.

As for the mice (or rats) not being able to leave their 15-second city, well that is kind of the point.
If all your needs are readily available within your local neighbourhood, then the thinking is why would you want to travel elsewhere?

As places like Oxford, Portsmouth, Ipswich, Colchester and parts of London head towards becoming 15-minute cities and impose legislation that is increasingly hostile to visitors from outside, then the suggestion that citizens will be discouraged from straying outside of their immediate neighbourhood does not sound that far-fetched.
 
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The idea that the model of a 15 minute city would provide the necessities to people that all can access them easily is the wonderful part of the concept. However humans are not known for their philanthropy and tend more to "this is mine and keep all undesirables out. There will be have and have not areas.
 
You're right and indeed John Calhoun did a similar, albeit somewhat smaller, experiment with rats before Universe 25, with broadly similar results.

As for the mice (or rats) not being able to leave their 15-second city, well that is kind of the point.
If all your needs are readily available within your local neighbourhood, then the thinking is why would you want to travel elsewhere?

As places like Oxford, Portsmouth, Ipswich, Colchester and parts of London head towards becoming 15-minute cities and impose legislation that is increasingly hostile to visitors from outside, then the suggestion that citizens will be discouraged from straying outside of their immediate neighbourhood does not sound that far-fetched.
Seems like the mice had needs that were not anticipated, rather than "all their needs were met".
 
It's just another utopian pipe-dream.
If you are living in the future in one of these cities and decide that you no longer want to use a particular store/brand but prefer to shop in one further away (eg, if you have a 'Tesco' in your city but want to shop in a 'Sainsburys' instead but the nearest one is in the next city along) you're stuffed.
And what if 'your' city has a number of retailers and services that fail? If it had been in place already for years you'd be shafted if you lived somewhere with a BHS, Debenhams, Woolworths, Burtons/Top Shop/Dorothy Perkins, Comet, Bills, Poundworld, Peacocks, Toys R Us, Maplin, Bulb Energy, ........etc etc.
 
It's just another utopian pipe-dream.
If you are living in the future in one of these cities and decide that you no longer want to use a particular store/brand but prefer to shop in one further away (eg, if you have a 'Tesco' in your city but want to shop in a 'Sainsburys' instead but the nearest one is in the next city along) you're stuffed.
And what if 'your' city has a number of retailers and services that fail? If it had been in place already for years you'd be shafted if you lived somewhere with a BHS, Debenhams, Woolworths, Burtons/Top Shop/Dorothy Perkins, Comet, Bills, Poundworld, Peacocks, Toys R Us, Maplin, Bulb Energy, ........etc etc.
Of course, in the future, we'd all be obliged/compelled to shop in the 'gubmint' store that will monitor and control what we buy.
And, in such a store, which would be modelled on the finest examples of the Soviet Union, there wouldn't be much on sale anyway.
Steaks? No sir, but we do have a new stock of bug burgers just in!
 
Of course, in the future, we'd all be obliged/compelled to shop in the 'gubmint' store that will monitor and control what we buy.
And, in such a store, which would be modelled on the finest examples of the Soviet Union, there wouldn't be much on sale anyway.
Steaks? No sir, but we do have a new stock of bug burgers just in!
Not only Soviet Union. Companies had company towns where all of their workers lived and purchased company goods and necessities.
 
Not only Soviet Union. Companies had company towns where all of their workers lived and purchased company goods and necessities.

You load sixteen tons and what do you get? another day older and deeper in debt. St Peter don't you call me, 'cos I can't go: I ooooooooooooooooowe my soul to the company store...
 
Not only Soviet Union. Companies had company towns where all of their workers lived and purchased company goods and necessities.
Yes, we had that within living memory in some places.
My Dad grew up in a small mining town in Wales. He had a choice of working in the steel foundry or in the mines. He decided to work at the foundry. The same corporation owned the mines and the foundry, and they had a company shop (part of the pay was in tokens that they could only use in the shop). When we last went to visit this place, my Dad pointed out where the company shop had been. He explained that it was a way that the corporation could control people and rip them off at the same time.
 
Yes, we had that within living memory in some places.
My Dad grew up in a small mining town in Wales. He had a choice of working in the steel foundry or in the mines. He decided to work at the foundry. The same corporation owned the mines and the foundry, and they had a company shop (part of the pay was in tokens that they could only use in the shop). When we last went to visit this place, my Dad pointed out where the company shop had been. He explained that it was a way that the corporation could control people and rip them off at the same time.

:confused:

Illegal under one or other of the Truck Acts, surely?

maximus otter
 
There were ways round the Truck Acts. Some companies only paid advances on wages in scrip or tokens, and some only gave tokens as change or refunds (giving refunds as credit is still used today occasionally). There were lots of tokens printed in the 17th-19th century as a substitute for real coins; some were exported to America and used there.
West-Cumberland-Mining-Token-Whitehaven-Colliery-c1700-Scarce.webp
 
Do all septic tanks leak?
Older ones are actively designed to transfer their contents to the surrounding earth (in a controlled way). Sure makes the grass grow.

Nowt wrong with the idea in lightly populated areas, as long as it doesn't get in to the water supply. Excrement is nature's fertilizer.
 
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