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The Abolition Of Cash

Sid said:
Ha... where I live (don't know if all stores are operating the same policy or not), but in Wilkinson's (our store) you bring your purchases to the checkout, and you are told to operate the scanner yourself on each item, and then pay on screen (via card).
Meanwhile, an assistant stands around and watches the checkouts - doing nothing!
I was wondering what the heck are they getting paid for, when the customer is completely self-serving (which I definitely object having to do) and they just watch?
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The Stop and Shop supermarkets near me have hand-held scanners that you unlock with your loyalty card and carry around to scan your items as you shop. There's also an app you can use on your phone to do the same thing. When you're done shopping it displays a bar code you can use at the checkout - either manned or self-service. It cuts down significantly on checkout time - as long as the people ahead of you are using it and know how to navigate the incredibly simple instructions. (I usually get stuck behind people who can't do one or the other.) Occasionally you are "randomly" chosen for an audit - where the store employee scans 6-8 items in your basket to make sure you already scanned them - but otherwise they trust you. I suspect audits are actually triggered by suspicious activity: taking too long, scanning then deleting too many things, and so on. By the way, you can still pay with cash.

Analogue Boy said:
What effect will all this have on numismatists?
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They'll be buying unique units of cryptocurrency at many times face value via NFT.
 
Ringo said:
The same as the with-cash society. No one could buy anything in that chain of supermarkets regardless of payment method because the tills, pricing systems, barcode scanners and everything you find in a modern shop is connected to a computer. However, some of them remained open as they weren't connected to the main central system. And you can still buy online with a card for home delivery. So not too bad.

But I get your point. The corner shop will still be able to take cash when everything goes down as they can open their cash drawer and everything has price tags. But larger operations (such as banks) won't be able to function. They won't be able to accept or dispense cash if their computer systems are down. I don't know if I'm in favour of a cashless society but seeing as how all major infrastructure is based around the internet, if TSHTF then everything will grind to a halt. Cash or not. Money (cash or electronic transactions) will only have a worth if we all agree to believe that society will return to normal and it will have a value in the future.
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Cash was always based on agreeing some abstract value. Four pieces of copper are equivalent to a chicken, this piece of paper is worth one hundred of some unit which is the worth of a boat etc
 
Simon Webb explores the reasons why abolishing cash is a BAD thing:

 
On Thursday I fancied a biscuit at work. I was going over to the Student Forum for a lab meeting, so I stuck a £2 coin in my pocket, intending to drop into the shop on the way back to our building. I picked up a couple of packets which were 2 for £1 and went up to the counter, but when I offered my coin the girl serving me said, "Oh, we don't take cash any more. Haven't you got a card on you?" Er, no. No I have not. And even if I had, sticking a £1 purchase on a card is not my style. So I took back my money, pushed the biscuits towards her and left without them.

I haven't bought anything in the student shop for a LONG time, so I'm guessing this is a post-Covid reaction, but it's certainly going to discourage me from buying anything there in the future. I don't even recall seeing any kind of notice there announcing that they no longer took actual money!
 
bugmum said:
On Thursday I fancied a biscuit at work. I was going over to the Student Forum for a lab meeting, so I stuck a £2 coin in my pocket, intending to drop into the shop on the way back to our building. I picked up a couple of packets which were 2 for £1 and went up to the counter, but when I offered my coin the girl serving me said, "Oh, we don't take cash any more. Haven't you got a card on you?" Er, no. No I have not. And even if I had, sticking a £1 purchase on a card is not my style. So I took back my money, pushed the biscuits towards her and left without them.

I haven't bought anything in the student shop for a LONG time, so I'm guessing this is a post-Covid reaction, but it's certainly going to discourage me from buying anything there in the future. I don't even recall seeing any kind of notice there announcing that they no longer took actual money!
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Good for you! I'd have reacted the same way myself. . . except I'd have made sure I'd have left more of a complaint about it.
 
Victory said:
Coincidence alert!

Tonight at the till, 10 minutes before the supermarket shut, I had all my shopping scanned by the assistant bagged up, ready to pay.

My credit card was not accepted by the machine, an error message could not read it's chip.

I keep a £20 cash float in my wallet, but my shopping was a lot more.

They would not let me swipe the card either.

So I ran to a cashpoint, it was down!

Thank G-D found another cashpoint, ran back to the supermarket, and paid 5 minutes before closing.

Lesson learned, will keep a larger cash float for supermarket visit, though not daily use as I do not like walking around with large amounts of cash.
I will also get a backup credit card, as I do not like taking a debit card out of the house. It is linked to the account my bills and mortgage come from, and I want to minimise risk on that account.
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I may be the only adult in the US who does not have, and will not have, a debit card, for the reason you gave. I usually have about $200 in my wallet, which hardly ever needs replenishing because I hardly ever use cash. For those who are wondering how I get cash without a debit card, my goons extract it from my debtors I go into my credit union a few times a year, wait in line, and ask the teller for a withdrawal. The teller is in disbelief about my not having a debit card and frequently insists on ordering a card for my convenience.
 
Endlessly Amazed said:
I may be the only adult in the US who does not have, and will not have, a debit card, for the reason you gave. I usually have about $200 in my wallet, which hardly ever needs replenishing because I hardly ever use cash. For those who are wondering how I get cash without a debit card, my goons extract it from my debtors I go into my credit union a few times a year, wait in line, and ask the teller for a withdrawal. The teller is in disbelief about my not having a debit card and frequently insists on ordering a card for my convenience.
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So. If you don't have a debit card and don't really use cash, how are you paying for things?

Cheque? Cashcard? Credit card?
 
I agree. I have a bank machine card because I refuse ever to wait on any line ever for anything unless I guess if I were starving I would, but it's in my desk and it only comes out rarely to go to the bank machine. Everything else is credit card or occasionally cash for things like farmers' markets. And a few times a year a check. And I check my bank and cc accounts each morning to make sure the number hasn't been hijacked - I worked as an accountant for many years and I know how easy it is to find strange things in your bank account.

I use several stores that have self-checkout and I do think that employee standing watching earns her wages dealing with the machine glitches and the people glitches. The lines are usually minimal and it's much faster for me - also I know how to pack a shopping bag which seems to be a lost art.

In the US businesses must accept cash payment - legal tender.
 
Mythopoeika said:
Is it? Is there any evidence for this?
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Cash has been notorious for being dirty for many years - when you supervise cashiers in high-cash environments it's a good idea for them to wear gloves. Yes there have been college classes that ran tests on what they could culture from money and cocaine was the least of it.
 
Lb8535 said:
Cash has been notorious for being dirty for many years - when you supervise cashiers in high-cash environments it's a good idea for them to wear gloves. Yes there have been college classes that ran tests on what they could culture from money and cocaine was the least of it.
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The notes I have in my wallet are sparkly and clean. It's mostly the coins that look a bit dirty.
 
Mythopoeika said:
The notes I have in my wallet are sparkly and clean. It's mostly the coins that look a bit dirty.
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Then you're lucky to have gotten them from a bank. If you have someone around who knows, ask them to swab the notes and put the result onto growing medium and tell you what's there in a week. Tends to be covid (cold) virus and anything that travels on human waste.
 
Lb8535 said:
I agree. I have a bank machine card because I refuse ever to wait on any line ever for anything unless I guess if I were starving I would, but it's in my desk and it only comes out rarely to go to the bank machine. Everything else is credit card or occasionally cash for things like farmers' markets. And a few times a year a check. And I check my bank and cc accounts each morning to make sure the number hasn't been hijacked - I worked as an accountant for many years and I know how easy it is to find strange things in your bank account.

I use several stores that have self-checkout and I do think that employee standing watching earns her wages dealing with the machine glitches and the people glitches. The lines are usually minimal and it's much faster for me - also I know how to pack a shopping bag which seems to be a lost art.

In the US businesses must accept cash payment - legal tender.
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Is using a credit card for most purchases a US thing? I don't get the impression credit card use is nearly as common in the UK, though I can see the logic for doing it this way.
 
BS3 said:
Is using a credit card for most purchases a US thing? I don't get the impression credit card use is nearly as common in the UK, though I can see the logic for doing it this way.
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It is quite common now.
It was much less common 30 years ago.

But for some reason people like debit cards. I genuinely cannot understand why?

a friend of mine had money stolen from his daily bank account a few years ago, a fraud. The same account he used for his his mortgage and utility bills.

He managed to get it returned by the bank, but it took a while.

Since then he has not had a debit card, and tends to withdraw a chunk of cash which he will use to pay for things.
 
Victory said:
It is quite common now.
It was much less common 30 years ago.

But for some reason people like debit cards. I genuinely cannot understand why?

a friend of mine had money stolen from his daily bank account a few years ago, a fraud. The same account he used for his his mortgage and utility bills.

He managed to get it returned by the bank, but it took a while.

Since then he has not had a debit card, and tends to withdraw a chunk of cash which he will use to pay for things.
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I do exactly what your friend does. A debit card is a carte blanche for your entire bank holdings, at least temporarily.

Most of my friends in the US are younger than me, and they all rely entirely on credit cards for purchases, and debit cards for cash withdrawals from machines (ATMs). I am old fashioned and check the actual charges on the bill against my receipts. It has saved me from some fraudulent charges over the years.
 
rmr975 said:
I like getting a shiny 50p in my change, to see if it's a special edition one...mind, haven't had any specials for a while now. Best day was getting £3 in 50ps in my change, they were all Paddington Bears.
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As a child I always used to keep an eye out for the old EEC commemorative ones... they got rid of them when they reduced the size of the coinage sadly.
 
rmr975 said:
I like getting a shiny 50p in my change, to see if it's a special edition one...mind, haven't had any specials for a while now. Best day was getting £3 in 50ps in my change, they were all Paddington Bears.
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I causually collect 50p and £2 coins, and covid has been terrible for my collection. Whenever I find them now it's either a Peter Rabbit themed one or a Paddington Bear one, I'm sick of the sight of them! My partner has bought me some fab uncirculated 50p coins that I've never seen in my change (the snowman, wallace and gromit) but it's not quite the same as finding them in your change, even if they're a bit scratched. The move towards a cashless society is definitely negative for a fun loving coin collector such as myself. :wink2:
 
BS3 said:
As a child I always used to keep an eye out for the old EEC commemorative ones... they got rid of them when they reduced the size of the coinage sadly.
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I got an EEC 50p in my change a couple of weeks ago and that’s in my collection now. They’re fun things to collect and not expensive. 50p each in fact. It’s true there seems less and less of the interesting variations around these days. I guess people using cards as payment means there’s less in circulation.
 
Analogue Boy said:
I got an EEC 50p in my change a couple of weeks ago and that’s in my collection now. They’re fun things to collect and not expensive. 50p each in fact. It’s true there seems less and less of the interesting variations around these days. I guess people using cards as payment means there’s less in circulation.
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I've got an interesting 50p you can by off me for 56p.
 
Cloudbusting said:
I causually collect 50p and £2 coins, and covid has been terrible for my collection. Whenever I find them now it's either a Peter Rabbit themed one or a Paddington Bear one, I'm sick of the sight of them! My partner has bought me some fab uncirculated 50p coins that I've never seen in my change (the snowman, wallace and gromit) but it's not quite the same as finding them in your change, even if they're a bit scratched. The move towards a cashless society is definitely negative for a fun loving coin collector such as myself. :wink2:
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This inspired me to look at my small pile of commemorative 50p's.
I think I started looking for them in 2012 when an extensive collection of olympic commemoratives was minted. But I see I only got five!
 
Here's a pic of our village NatWest during filming for the "We will not close the last bank in town"
advert, some things surprised me, the heat from the lights that was uncomfortable even across
the road on a cold day, and that they used the staff instead of actors.
The thing that didn't surprise though was that only ran for about 12 months then that and the
Bank were gone, the Bank was on tv again not long after in one of these buy a house and do it
up things and is now privately owned though the cash machine is still there, the bank renting
the room for I believe £60 a week.
Such is life.
:omr:

Picture 002.jpg
 
oxo66 said:
This inspired me to look at my small pile of commemorative 50p's.
I think I started looking for them in 2012 when an extensive collection of olympic commemoratives was minted. But I see I only got five!
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The last time I counted all of my collection it came to hundreds of pounds (in denomination value, some may be worth more to collectors). I collect 3 of each design in the hope of passing them on to younger family members at some point... and they're all in special coin collecting books. The more I type the more I sound like an avid collector! :D

Here are some of my favourites:
(1) The Snowman 50p - 2018
(2) WWF 50p - 2011
(3) The Great Fire of London £2 - 2016

20220215_102906.jpg

20220215_103603.jpg

20220215_103512.jpg
 
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Endlessly Amazed said:
I do exactly what your friend does. A debit card is a carte blanche for your entire bank holdings, at least temporarily.

Most of my friends in the US are younger than me, and they all rely entirely on credit cards for purchases, and debit cards for cash withdrawals from machines (ATMs). I am old fashioned and check the actual charges on the bill against my receipts. It has saved me from some fraudulent charges over the years.
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A few points to say/ask:

Why don't you just open another account in the same bank? You keep all your assets in account one and have a set amount transferred over to account two every month (or transfer over when you need to). You then get a debit card connected only to account two and use this for your daily transactions. We have online banking and in my bank app I can open and close new accounts myself. I can block my card for overseas transaction and/or online transactions. If I want to buy something online, I unlock the card in the app, make the internet purchase and then can lock the card again.

Card transactions are free here even for tiny amounts. So I would rather carry a card and "blipp" it for a small transaction than carry coins and notes in my pocket.
 
Lb8535 said:
n the US businesses must accept cash payment - legal tender
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Actually that's not entirely true. Cash is legal tender for debts, but a business can say up front they don't accept cash, so if you don't have a card you can't make a purchase, and if you don't make a purchase you haven't incurred a debt. Courts have also ruled that paying large debts in all pennies, for instance, is not necessarily allowed. State and local laws may insist on a cash option, though.

That being said, I rarely see stores that refuse cash, except for a few in the height of the pandemic when the fear of infection from physical surfaces was higher than warranted. I have seen cashless outlets at concert venues and the like, but (again, aside from pandemic fears) there are usually cash options somewhere on the premises.

There is still an old-fashioned dislike of credit in some places, such as gas stations, where competition and the cost of card transactions leads to one price for cash and another higher one for credit. In New York they used to ban surcharges for credit, but paradoxically allowed discounts for cash. This was ruled illegal by the courts, but the state still has rules about how much the prices can differ and how it must be disclosed. I doubt the rules are very well enforced, since at least one pizza place I know has a small and vague sign at the door implying credit customers will pay more than the menu says, but is very short on details.
 
Thanks Chas. I have operated businesses in NY and California where you have to accept cash - I assume that it's a federal law because the cash is federal. There are of course many small businesses who ignore the rule and I doubt that it's anywhere near the top of anyone's enforcement list. You'd have to run across a nut with a deep pocket who wanted to sue the business. Not accepting cash does discriminate against people not wealthy or with good enough credit to have credit cards. There are many. I used cash for small purchases for most of my life but finally gave in to what I consider indulgence and now even pay for a ($5.00) coffee with a card. Since I seem to be paying the business for the cc fee anyway I decided to join the lemmings. However, I was at one point responsible for a business that did $42 m ($42,000,000) in cash sales annually and I *assure* you about the inherently dirty nature of bills and coins. Transmission of anything through surfaces is not a huge issue but is not to be ignored; note that if you touch that dollar bill and then wipe your nose anything on the bill goes into your nose. I'm not thinking cocaine - remember the peanuts in the bowl on the bar.
 
Lb8535 said:
I *assure* you about the inherently dirty nature of bills and coins.
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I should clarify that I was speaking only of the transmissibility of COVID-19 via surfaces, which is pretty low. I agree money is pretty dirty generally.
 
ChasFink said:
I should clarify that I was speaking only of the transmissibility of COVID-19 via surfaces, which is pretty low. I agree money is pretty dirty generally.
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Covid or anything else that doesn't degrade fast. Sneeze to surface to fingers to nose; unpalatable but true. Covid actually has a longer shelf-life on surfaces below say 70 degrees than other bugs. Given that daily numbers are reported in my area as something like "100 cases, 15 due to close contact with those already infected, 10 of health care workers, 75 of unknown origin" I'm keeping an open mind. But there's also the common cold, flu, there's still a scattering of TB in NYC, typhoid (I had paratyphoid when I was in college and it was awful)...
 
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