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The Acambaro Figurines (Mexico)

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I was looking through my UnCon 2003, bought copy of Fortean Times (Issues 1 -15) (I wish I'd bought a couple more now!), when I came across a short reference, in the review section of issue 8 {pg12}, to a book called 'Extraterrestrial Intervention: The Evidence, by Jacques Bergier & the editors of INFO (the International Fortean Organisation Journal).

Anyway, to cut a long story short, the review mentions that there is an article in the book on:
"The Acambaro Figurines," (30,000 clay minatures, 3,600 years old from Mexico)
Curious, I Googled for them and came up with several sites about these strange reptilian and dinosaur-like clay models.

On a Creationist Site they get a lot of space:
www.bible.ca site

They're mentioned alongside 'The Ica Stones'
The Ica Stones and Acambaro Figurines

Link is dead. The MIA webpage can be accessed via the Wayback Machine:
https://web.archive.org/web/20090401225545/http://members.cox.net/davehanson/weirdworld/stones.htm

For more info about the Ica stones see:
The Ica Stones (Peru)
https://forums.forteana.org/index.php?threads/the-ica-stones-peru.67655/


The North Texas Sceptics Site:
North Texas Sceptics Site: Acambaro Figurines

And even the reptoids and David Icke get a mention:
http://www.geocities.com/reptoid_27/Text-Acambaro.html

There's plenty of Spanish Language sites as well. I've never come across them before. Anyone have any more details? :)

See attached:
 
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Hey Andro. It's curious, but most people are not aware of the so call existence of those figurines. I think they are a hoax, personally, because they look rather primitive in execution, whilst being very active in intent. Like the dino strangling a guy, with the eyes and thonge sticking out, or people playing with dinos. They look like toys or mementos made by kids or someone with rather poor skills. ...

Just my opinion.
 
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Come on, girls, you're lagging behind: the boys have done six
and you have only managed four! Just twenty nine thousand, nine
hundred and ninety to go so we all need to get a move on if we
expect to go at three. Then I have to get over to Mexico to hide them.

What's that, Eric? You need more Pleistocene? Try not to make them
so camp, there's a good lad. Yes, I'm sure some dinosaurs were. Well
I haven't heard that theory before. We usually blame an asteroid. :p
 
James Whitehead said:
Come on, girls, you're lagging behind: the boys have done six
and you have only managed four! Just twenty nine thousand, nine
hundred and ninety to go so we all need to get a move on if we
expect to go at three. Then I have to get over to Mexico to hide them.

What's that, Eric? You need more Pleistocene? Try not to make them
so camp, there's a good lad. Yes, I'm sure some dinosaurs were. Well
I haven't heard that theory before. We usually blame an asteroid. :p

Oh! The intrincacies of British humor are so alien to me, yet fun :D
 
Onix said:
Hey Andro. It's curious, but most people are not aware of the so call existence of those figurines. I think they are a hoax, personally, because they look rather primitive in execution, whilst being very active in intent. Like the dino strangling a guy, with the eyes and thonge sticking out, or people playing with dinos.
I've certainly come across the Ica stones before, I first read about them in one of Von Daniken's books, way back in the Seventies. The Acambaro figurines are a new one on me, though.

If they're just an example of folk art to sell to tourists, there's certainly a real vigour about some of them.

There do seem to be tens of thousands of these things, only about 10% are reptilian in form. Could they be some sort of relic of an ancient shamanistic lizard cult?

If they're fakes, people went to an awful lot of trouble to fake them. They remind me of the Glozel stuff as well. Whatever they are, they're certainly interesting as Fortean artifacts.
 
Here's a link to a French, Fortean-style, site with a less reptiles and lizards and more figures.

http://marcogee.free.fr
marcogee.free.fr (Acambaro Figurines)
Link is dead. See subsequent post below for the current link.
 
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AndroMan said:
If they're fakes, people went to an awful lot of trouble to fake them. They remind me of the Glozel stuff as well. Whatever they are, they're certainly interesting as Fortean artifacts.

People will go to alot of trouble if there's money to be made. Take the modern fake ivory carving trade, for instance. Workshops in China spend ages making such things and then export them worldwide.
 
JerryB said:
People will go to alot of trouble if there's money to be made. Take the modern fake ivory carving trade, for instance. Workshops in China spend ages making such things and then export them worldwide.
And your point being? :)
 
My point being that people will go to an 'awful lot of trouble' to make things if there's money involved, as I've said ;)
 
JerryB said:
My point being that people will go to an 'awful lot of trouble' to make things if there's money involved, as I've said ;)
Yeah! And my point was, they went to an awful lot of trouble to make them. ;)
 
My god, people jump to the most exciting conclusions, when if fact all they have to do is to use a bit of common sense and all notions of reptoids and co-existing with dinosaurs ebb away.

If these are genuine, then they represent a good few species of dinosaur. logically, you'd probably still have a few dinos left if all this many survived into recent ages. So either these are older and we co-existed or...

http://www.bible.ca/tracks/tracks-acambaro-dinos.htm

Notice how many of the figurines look incomplete, or twisted - like the dino with his neck curled round and the one with his head attached to his foot? And the one sith the stumpy neck and the head sticking out from beneath it's front legs. Some only have two of three legs.

They look like bad reconstructions - as if the awkward twisted shapes of fossil dinosaurs had been misread. If these are real, I reckon all it shows these people (who appear to have had quite an advanced civilisation for the time) did was be the first archaeologists. All these models illustrate are reconstructions of long dead animals, and what these fierce beasts could do to a man if they did co-exist. After all, mexico does have some good fossil remains, maybe some in that particular area that have now been covered.

C'mon, we've been making (or at least documenting) such things since the 19th century and we've never lived alongside a dinosaur. To say that these people lived with dinosaurs is like an archaeologist finding a godzilla toy 5,000 yrs from now and declaring the survival of giant lizards into the 21st century...
 
The originally-posted link is dead. The current Acambaro figurines webpage at that site is at:

http://www.ldi5.com/archeo/acambaro.php
English translation via Google:

In 1923, Waldemar Julsrud, a trader of German origin, and "padre" Fray José Marie Martinez discovered the archaeological site of Chupicuaro dating from the pre-classical era and containing vases, bowls and figurines from the oldest culture known Indian, named after the site and dating back to 1000 BC, (earlier than the Indian Tarascans, the oldest known Indian culture at that time).
This "classic" discovery did not raise any controversy other than his paternity disputed by a rival collector.

A few years later, in July 1944, 69-year-old Waldemar Julsrud made a resounding discovery in Acambaro, a small Mexican town located less than 300 km northwest of Mexico City, in the province of Guanajuato.


As he was strolling along a ditch near the bull hill, along with one of his employees, a farmer named Odilon Tinajero, his attention was drawn to a piece of ceramic emerging from the ground. It was a terracotta figurine of a style that was unknown to him.

He asked his employee to dig and bring back all the similar parts he could find. Tinajero appeared a few days later with a wheelbarrow filled with these artifacts. Julsrud was stunned by the style and diversity of the figures. He spent a bargain with his employee: he would pay him 1 peso for all the figurines reported but nothing for those damaged, he still had to give (and he kept).
His aim was not to encourage his farmer to make it (he would not have had the time or the art anyway and the price was too low for a possible fabrication) but to force him to search with the more extreme precaution.

The figurines were discovered in groups of 20 to 40 inside wells at a depth of about 1m 20 to 1m 80.
They were not funerary wells, we only found 6 skulls during the excavations. It seems, it is at least the hypothesis emitted by Mr. Julsrud, that they were hastily buried to protect them from the looting of the first Spanish settlers.

These are more than 33 500 (!!!) ceramic objects (in a very large majority), stone, jade and obsidian have been found. They are all unique, none are duplicated. They vary in size from a few centimeters to less than one meter. Different types of clay were used (their study would be a valuable indication of their provenance), but all were made by the method of "open fire" (the manufacture of fake would not have gone unnoticed by the smoke released and the large quantities of wood - expensive and expensive in this region - necessary.
In spite of their great diversity, they can be grouped, by their design, hundreds or even thousands, as coming from different cultures.

Like Dr. Cabrera (who died in December 2001), Curator of the Ica Stones, Mr. Julsrud never traded his discovery. Their goal was scientific and their desire to protect an inheritance that they considered unique for humanity has never been faulted. It is always with pleasure that they showed their pieces to those who wanted it and they never stopped fighting for the scientists interested in their discovery and come to judge on the spot ... Lost pain ... Why ?

One of the main reasons (see history and argument) of the rejection of this discovery is the representations of these figurines.
They represent among others, dinosaurs, unknown animals, reptiles, some with avian traits; some seem to indicate a form of domestication of small reptiles and small dinosaurs, great apes, others clearly show zoophile acts with reptiles, finally, many represent unknown deities, everyday life and its usual objects (pipes, instruments of music, etc ..) ...
(see some examples of these figurines)

Men with dinosaurs? Everyone knows that it's impossible!

One man, a heretic of course, made the effort to be interested in this discovery: Charles Hapgood, professor of history and anthropology at the University of New Hampshire (see his work on ancient maps). He was there to investigate, meet and question the protagonists of this story. From his trip, he brought back some samples in order to analyze them according to the most modern and recent methods of the time (at the end of the 60s).

The (carbon-14) measurements given in 1968 by the New Jersey Laboratory of Isotopes Inc. ranged from 1,110 BC. J.C. at 4,530 BC J.C.!
In 1972, the thermoluminescence dating recorded by the University of Pennsylvania on 2 figures was 2500 years BC. J.C.!
It will thus be necessary that one day, the detractors of Glozel (1924) and Acambaro (1944) explain to us how one can manufacture forgery which will pass the rigorous scientific tests of dating (thermoluminescence and Carbon 14) which were unknown at the time of their discovery!

Some of these figurines are now visible to everyone in the Acambaro Museum.
Until the scientists deign to take an interest in it ... We can always dream ...
 
The figures / figurines have their own Wikipedia entry:
The Acámbaro figures are about 33,000 small ceramic figurines allegedly found by Waldemar Julsrud in July 1944, in the Mexican city of Acámbaro, Guanajuato. The figurines are said by some to resemble dinosaurs and are sometimes cited as anachronisms. Some young-Earth creationistshave adduced the existence of figurines as credible evidence for the coexistence of dinosaurs and humans, in an attempt to cast doubt on scientific dating methods and potentially offer support for a literal interpretation of the Genesis creation narrative.

However, there is no known reliable evidence for the validity of the Acámbaro figures as actual ancient artifacts; and many have questioned the motives of those who argue for their validity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acámbaro_figures
 
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I suggest that they are creative fakes, done by the friends and family of the man who was given the job of digging them up.
 
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